Forum Debate: Anakin Skywalker, tragic hero or cowardly traitor?

Someone said once (in the Classic Trilogy forum, I think) that Anakin and Luke were like Sir Lancelot and Galahad (who were also father and son) in the Arthurian legend. Lancelot was a hero, but one with considerable flaws that had huge effects on Camelot and Britain. He failed to obtain the Holy Grail because he wasn't quite pure enough, and fell in love with Queen Guinevere, which sparked events led to the eventual downfall of Camelot. See the parallels?
Galahad was like Luke though, on the other hand. He resisted the temptations and weaknesses that brought Lancelot down, and succeeded in obtaining the Grail where Lancelot had failed.
In that sense then, both Galahad and Luke are the true heroes of the respective sagas. Both showed their flawed fathers what they could achieve without those flaws.
In that sense, then, Anakin is a flawed hero. He does great deeds for good before his fall to evil, yet in the end, his pride in his son for being what he failed to be leads him to carry out one final heroic deed before his death.

 

Yeah, and like Lancelot, I don't think giving into your own weaknesses necessarily makes you a cowardly traitor. A traitor, yes, but I personally don't think of Lancelot or Anakin (at least from my non-spoiler naivete) as cowards.

Like many of you have stated previously in this post, I think Anakin's fatal flaw is thinking that he can "handle it." Gee, that almost sounds like a drug addict. I guess the Dark Side is addictive...

 

"Gee, that almost sounds like a drug addict. I guess the Dark Side is addictive..."

That is actually the topic of an old thread. Since this seems to be "classic thread-day" I think I'll go find it.


Edit: Got it!

 

I think that the problem is, that when people think of Anakin Skywalker, they automatically think about darth vader, the monster Anakin will become, and for that, people are quick to be harsh where he is concerned. The reason why this is so, is because we really have not seen the good side that was Anakin Skywalker, the good man Obi Wan talked about in RoTJ, the good friend he was, when he told Luke this...and because of that, people think that he is just evil, who disserves no reedemption....well, I think that it is wrong.


The purpose of the PT, is to tell the story of Anakin Skywalker, whom was a young man, young jedi, whom was a good man, whom was seduced by the darkside, and whom made some very fatal mistakes, which in turn, not only destroyed him, but destroyed the people whom loved and cared about him the most. When Anakin falls, the good man that is Anakin Skywalker will die, and darth vader will be born....and in RoTJ, the evil that was dv will die, and Anakin returns, before he becomes one with the force, when he saves his own son from being fried by dark force lightening.

Do I think that what Anakin does, or will do will be an act of cowardice? Possibly. At the same time, I think that he will let his fear and hate destroy him, which will be his fatal mistake, and which is what destroys him, and when we see darth vader again in the OT, we will se the consequence of those fatal mistakes Anakin made years ago.....remember, there is always a consequence for our actions, and we will see that Anakin's consequence is his own death in episode three, which causes him to become the monster known as darth vader in the first place.

So with that said, I think that Anakin will be a traegic hero of sorts, because he will be a young jedi knight, whom had promice, whom was a good man, but let his fear and hate destroy him.....and when that happens, it will be very hard and painful for a lot of people to see, because we will be seeing a good person, a potential great jedi, fall from grace, whom throws everything away because of his hate.

Another thing to think about, is that in the OT, Obi Wan did not call Anakin Skywalker evil at all....he described Anakin as a "good man," and "a good friend." However, he did call darth vader "twisted and evil," the person Anakin became, the darth vader that killed and murdered the good man that was Luke's father (Anakin), from a certain point of view. Also, Yoda himself never called Anakin evil either...he said that Anakin was a powerful Jedi.....he too, referred darth vader as evil, not Anakin Skywalker. With that said, even though Anakin and darth vader are the same person, in many ways, they are not, because darth vader represents the monster Anakin became, the monster that killed the good person Anakin was, the monster that killed Anakin, because Anakin made a fatal mistake in giving into his fear and hate....darth vader is the darkside of Anakin.

So, with that said, no, Anakin Skywalker was not evil, but the mistakes that he made, allowed the monster known as darth vader appear...it is not that simple, as far as just saying that Anakin is evil......he is a very complex character, with a complex background, whom is a hard character to get a full grasp on. He is a person, whom has good in him, as well as evil....just like all of us have....we all have flaws, but the question is: do we allow ourselves to give into those flaws? And in Anakin's case, he allowed himself to give into those flaws, which in turn, leads to his own destruction. Because of that, yes, he is a trageic hero of sorts.

Furthermore, after the PT is over, I bet you that many of the same people whom judge Anakin so harshly and do not like him will look at him differently....not as just some evil person whom disserves no reedemption...but a man whom lets his own anger destroy the good man he was, and thus, enslaves him, and causes him to be dead until his own son causes him to take a good look at himself, and cause him to change, thus bringing back the good man that is Anakin Skywalker, and dest

 

I think there's more debate to be had here.

Up!

 

This is a good thread, but I don't think we should allow McCartney in here anymore. If I hear the name Rocky V one more time I will scream.

 

The best anology to Anakin and Luke I've seen is Lancelot and Galahad in the Arthurian legends. Someone pointed that out once in the OT forum. Like Anakin and Luke, Lancelot and Galahad were father and son. Lancelot was a great knight and symbol of chivalry, yet he was flawed. He was too fond of things like wine and women to attain the Holy Grail in the quest for the Grail, and in the end he helped cause the destruction of Arthur's kingdom through his love for Queen Guinevere. Like Anakin, his flaws and weaknesses ultimately proved his undoing. Galahad, though, proved to be the ultimate hero of the Arthurian legend. Untouched by human weaknesses, he succeeded in gaining the Grail where his father Lancelot had failed. In the same way, Luke is ultimately able to resist the temptations of the Emperor, where Anakin presumably failed and became Vader.

 

Didn't you just post that at the top of the page?


Regardless, ami-padme isn't here but I still don't understand how she didn't get my "Anakin's fall is rooted in fear" scenario.

I mean, think about the human psyche. It tries to mask and overcompensate. Anakin was afraid, Yoda said "I sense much fear in him." I mean, COME ON? It's right there? Am I right?

P.S. I was shocked to see a 5 month old thread of mine back on page 1!

 

Anakin is the no coward he has no fear for himself at all. He flies pods with out a second thought he even flies in the battle of naboo without fear. Anakin's weakness is his fear for others. He fears that he may loose his mother since he can no longer protect her. He never has any fear for himself. Anakin loves his family whole heartedly and would gladly die for them.
Anakin turning to the darkside will have a lot to do with the fact that he was too old for the training. He was instructed by Ben and missed out on the early classes with Yoda(from Lucas). Anakin is going to be the greatest hero in the PT. He will proove that he is the chosen one and be the hero of the clone wars.
Dismissing EU Anakin is the only to ever turn back from the darkside. this shows that he had the greatest mastery of he force evr and his turn to the darkside was more complicated than meets the eye. Luke is no stronger than Anakin mentally. Luke never had Anakin's presure or power. Luke will never compare to Anakin in power level.

 

I agree that there are a number of strong similarities between Lancelot/Galahad and Anakin/Luke, but I'm going to have to disagree a little with likening Galahad's success with Luke's ability to resist the temptations of the Emperor. I think instead, we have the supreme climax of Lucas's story: Anakin is able to turn back from the darkside and by doing this, saves us all.

 

See this is the heart of my disagreement with MOST star wars fans. Why is Vader to be so revered? He was one of the most dispicable charecters! (I mean one cool bad guy, but hardly the savior.)

Luke didn't have the pressures of Anakin? Are you freaking joking? Luke is a bumbling farmboy and all of a sudden he is a starpilot and learns he is the son of the second most evil man in the galaxy and that he as a barely trained Jedi must face BOTH HIS FATHER AND THE EVIL EMPEROR IN BATTLE and that the fate of the universe is in his hands?

Please, Luke is a far more noble and respectable charecter. It is Luke's love and LUKE'S FAITH IN HIS FATHER that brought Anakin out. Were it not for Luke's heroic actions, Vader would have remained and the rebellion would have been crushed.

Honostly, Luke is the true hero, he is the original son of suns, and although Anakin may be the "Chosen One," all this means was that he was the one chosen to beget the savior of the universe. Kind of like Mary's birth was the immaculate conception, born without sin, to give birth the the savior (in Christian mythology), Anakin is the Chosen One, but it is only through his SON does he fulfill his destiny.

Left on his own, Vader would have continued to pillage and murder the galaxy at the emperor's will for eternity.

 

There are obvious alot of Anakin haters here. The whole point of the story is that someone so great can be turned bad. Then he turns good. Anakin is the only person ever to reject the darkside that shows his immense power.
Was Luke told at the age of nine that he was the saviour of the galaxy. Was Luke told at the age of nie that he was the most powerful jedi of all time. Did Luke have the most evil man in the galaxy watching his carrer from an early age trying to turn him. Did Luke have a master who should not have been training him and on a number of occasions has said that he failed in his job as tutor.
Anakin is never actually that bad in the OT. He kills rebels. That is what is supposed to be done in a war. He kills the jedi. The whole point of the two organizations is to wipe one out first. The worst thing that Vader did was kill his own men. The destruction of Alderaan does not count since it was his not his order. He tortures a known criminal like Han that is not that bad. He spares his son on several occasions.
Here is how I would like to see Anakin as a man who became great and was clearly better than all his peers. He could big headed and attacked Palpatine. Palpatine schools him and convinces him the jedi are bad. Maybe its the death of Padme or the supposed death of Luke that drives him over the age. he blames the jedi for their death(Palpatine makes it look that way). He then decides to join the darkside and wipe out the jedi to create a better galaxy where children will not be allowed to die.

 

Did I hear my name?


There are obvious alot of Anakin haters here.

I don't know that I'd say it's alot...McCartney just posts alot.


The whole point of the story is that someone so great can be turned bad.

...and that someone so bad can still return to good. That's certainly the point of Anakin's character arc, if not the saga as a whole. Just saying Vader's evil and that's it misses big chunks of the story, IMO.

 

EDIT: Didn't mean to post anything, it was a slip, I SWEAR TO GOD.

 

Yeah, I agree with ami-padme that part of the story is the Anakin arc from good to bad and back to good again. *But* at the same time, I agree with Commander Antilles's Lancelot/Galahad likeness as another story arc. The coolest part to me is that while we focus on the Galahad-like story of Luke in the OT, Luke's success is utimately tied to Anakin's redemption. Thus, the first story arc (Anakin's) is wrapped up simultaneously with the second story arc (Luke's). Nice!

 

I think Anakin more as a tragic hero then a coward or traitor; but I think of him more as a misguided pawn. Palpatine from the moment he said "we'll watch your career with GREAT INTEREST," Palpatine has been using Anakin to serve his needs. Yes, Anakin/Vader did horrible things but I think Palpatine exploited his weaknesses to eventually turn Ani to the dark side. What makes him a tragic hero is that, when it come down to it, Anakin couldn't stand by as his own son was being killed by Palpatine's lightning.

 

He was a Hero thats destiny was clouded for a reason.

Qui-gon found him, and insisted he be trianed, upon his death he instructed obi wan to train him. This set the gears that would change the universe in place.
Anakin Will go on to become a jedi and will be suduced by the dark side. The jedi all belive that he may be the chosen one, but has forsaken the jedi by joining palpatine.

What alot of people dont seem to think about is the fact that if he had never become vader, palpatine would have proabbly killed all the jedi.
so bassically if vader had not become vader, who would have stopped the emperor?

 

Great thread! Excuse the long post but I've got a lot to catch up with, and I think I've got a slightly different perspective to offer. (Or maybe it's just more long-winded...)

I think the key line with Anakin's fall is going to be Yoda in ESB- "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

In Episode I, Anakin is undoubtedly a good and pure character. Although he's incredibly attuned to the Force, that is to say he can see things through the Force, giving him his Jedi reflexes etc. he doesn't have any control over the Force- he can't to telekenesis, mind tricks etc. This is hammered home in the end scene, which is obviously supposed to mirror the end of Episode IV (as confirmed by Lucas on the DVD.) The difference is that where Luke deliberately uses the Force to destroy the Death Star, Anakin is just a puppet of the Force, and destroys the control ship by sheer luck.

Of course, as we know, in the Star Wars universe "there's no such thing as luck"...

Now, my opinion is that if Anakin was NOT taken away by Qui Gon, he would have lived out his life with the Force pulling the strings, and under the guidance of the Force, he would have fulfilled the prophecy and brought balance. I think he would have won his own freedom- in TPM he isn't exactly free- the only choice he had was between going off with Qui Gon or staying on Tatooine, and considering that the only reason Sebulba didn't kill him during the little scrap with Jar Jar (remember the "I'd hate to see you have to pay for me" line), I don't think he would have lasted long without the protection of being owned, so it wasn't much of a choice. Qui Gon was totally in control of his destiny. Remember that Qui Gon had to actually USE the Force (dice roll) to change Anakin's destiny so that he would be freed. I think this was Qui Gon's ultimate mistake.

As it was, Qui Gon decided that Anakin should be trained as a Jedi, and taught how to control the Force- something totally new to him. Given that originally he was guided by the Force, and now he's going to be in control of the Force that was guiding him, this means that his own will is going to end up interfering with the will of the Force- he's going to "fall off" the path he's following in TPM and start down his own path.

Effectively, his training is giving him the power to control the force, and it's this power which will seduce and corrupt him, partly because he won't have had the intensive training from an early age that is "standard" for the Jedi (instead he was forming emotional attachments to his mother, his friends and Qui Gon- all of whom he lost in TPM) and partly because of his unusual aptitude with the Force- he'll presumably become more powerful than most, so he'll have even more to deal with than the "average" Jedi.

Presumably, in Episode II we'll see him forming a new emotional attachment to Padme- I think that this will probably be a factor in him turning his back on the Will of the Force, and strike out on his own path. For whatever reason, he'll be afraid of losing her, and will act on this fear.

Of course- everyone gets scared, gets angry etc. It's not HAVING fear that leads to the Dark Side (I think)- it's how you deal with that fear: for example, if you're scared of losing a loved one and let yourself be driven by your fear of losing them instead of your love for them, then that's a step towards the Dark Side, in that you'll end up being jealous, posessive etc. Focussing on what they do for you, rather than what you can do for them.

Remember that in ESB, Obi Wan said he didn't want to Lose Luke to the Emperor "the same way that I lost your father." This is when Luke "sees" his friends in danger and decides to go to help them- despite the fact that he doesn't know whether or not he can, he turns his back on Yoda's training to do his own thing because of his fear for his friends: even though he needs to be properly trained to deal with the power he's being given, he puts his friends first, because of his emotional attachment to them.

 

I'm of the opinion "there's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be" (Lennon/McCartney,) and that perhaps it was all destined to be.

Doesn't mean Anakin couldn't be a cowardly traitor, that could part of fulfilling his destiny.

I don't know, for some reason, I don't think I can just right off Anakin as a hero who got screwed. It's hard to justify someone being so evil and corrupt. And I believe Lucas said that he would freely accept it.

BUT! I just thought of something. Has anyone seen Twin Peaks? If not, bear with me, unless you WANT TO see it and do not wish to be spoiled, then don't read. (spoiled about Twin Peaks
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In the last episode of Twin Peaks, the hero of the series, Special Agent Cooper is on a hunt for his old partner who has kidnapped his girlfriend, and chases him into the "alternate reality" netherworld's kind of spooky place. Once there, the hero has to make a decision, to save his beloved girlfriend Annie he must give up his soul. He accepts, his evil doppleganger shows up, chases HIM down, and in the last scene of the show you find out that now the ultimate hero of any Tv Show, Agent Dale Cooper, has been possessed by the ultimate evil of the show. Basically, the most perfect and good charecter gave up his soul and his body to be possessed by evil in order to save the life of his loved one. So I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

 

OWMC, i agree with you 100% and Anakin is a traitor and a coward.

 

Hmm, another Anakin Skywalker bashing thread? We seem to have many of those . Rather than repeat myself, I will post what I said at the a thread called, "vader, a hero?" at the spoilers board.


"You can still be a hero, regardless of the evil you did. People can change, for the better, or for the worst. People seem to have a hard time seeing that vader was both a hero and a villian, because they concentrate on the bad too much.
Yes, vader did a lot of evil, but when he stood up against the emporer, he let go of his dark emotions (fear, anger, hatred) and replaced it with love and compassion, love for his son. That to me, is the ultimate redeemption, and for
that, yes, he is a hero. He still would've had to repent for his evil, but that is necessary for all of us, so that we can become better people, and move on. Is it so hard to see that Anakin/vader is a complex person, and not just some
person in a mechanical suit, wearing a breath mask, who force chockes people? Behind the mask, was a man, who was a good man, but had a lot of baggage, and unfortuantely, he let his weaknesses get the better of him, instead of conquering them. He let his fear, anger, and hatred engulf him, and it cost him in the end. Anakin/vader represents the good and bad in all of us, and what can happen to anyone, if they let their weaknesses get the better of him. He also
represents a person who can change, and turn from their wicked ways, if they choose to, in which Anakin did. SW is about choices, and the consequences of those choices. Anakin fell to the darkside, and it caused him enslavement in
the darkside. Anakin turned from the darkside, and redeemed himself, which enabled him to bring balance, die as a Jedi, and become one with the lightside of the force, along with Obi Wan and Yoda.

A hero is not just a person who is always good. A hero is also someone who can change from their evil ways, conquer the inner demons in him/her, and do the right thing. I think that some people don't understand that, because they look
at the evil more than the good, which often causes us to become too judgemental, instead of more compassionate, understanding, and more open-minded. That is what Anakin did, and as a result, he is a hero, and was a villain. He represents the good and bad in all of us."

God bless you all my friends

 

And BTW, Anakin did pay for his atrocities as darth vader, with his life. At the same time, he died as a Jedi, and as a good man, for what I said before. He is also a tragic hero for all the reasons I've said before. He represents the good and bad in all of us. He is an example of what people CAN become, if they let their hate engulf them. Remember, hate is the path to the darkside....fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering. But at the end, Anakin overcame his hate, and saved his son out of love and compassion, which not only made him a hero at the end, he was redeemed. Nothing can excuse the evil vader did, but as I said before, people can change for the better, and what Anakin did was redeemption in the purest form. He was also a hero at the end. To just overlook that is being a bit short-sided, and that is one of the weaknesses of people, including myself, today.

God bless

 

Sorry folks, but I don't see the Arthurian link here (I know, a little late)
Yes there's some similarities (as noted above) but the Vader/Lancelot analogy is a strech.
Lancelot had his flaws and was redeemed at the end (like Anakin), but his flaws didn't include betraying all of Camelot, joining forces with Morgana and hunting down the knights of the round table.
Lancelot never turned evil etc. which Anakin essentially did.

On the bigger question, Anakin doesn't fall into the classic tragic hero mould but it's a decent fit.
He's obviously part messianic figure (as is Luke), another non-Arthurian aspect.

 

It does not matter how much evil you did. When you are redeemed, you are rredeemed. What Anakin did, in rescuing his son was truly a hero act, becauase he did it out of love and compassion, not out of anger and hatred. Anakin let go of all of his dark emotions, which also redeemed him. Yes, Anakin had to pay for his crimes, and he did, when he died. So with that said, he is a traegic hero. A hero is not always someone who always does good. A hero is also one who can overcome the evil within him, change for the better, and do good for a change. This is the point Lucas is trying to get across. SW is about choices, and the consequences of those choices, as I've said over and over. Anyone who overlooks that is totally missing the point of the entire saga.

God bless