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Forum Debate: Anakin Skywalker, tragic hero or cowardly traitor?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Obi-Wan McCartney, Oct 10, 2000.

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  1. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Anakin's redemption takes place in the original trilogy, but that it not what the entire trilogy is about. Only ROTJ includes his redemption. The story that covers all 3 films is Luke's ascent to Jedi Knight, and the Rebellion against the Empire. Lucas didn't start calling the redemption the arc of the trilogy until 1995, and it isn't the arc of the trilogy. It's the arc of part of Return of the Jedi. And as far as I'm concerned, Anakin is a traitor. Tragic, yes. But accountable for his own actions, and I hope the films don't point the finger at anyone else except maybe Palpatine. I'm sick of the asusmption that it was all because Obi-Wan didn't train him properly.
  2. GS335 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2001
    star 4
    Obi Wan's inability to train Anakin is one of the factors in Anakin's downfall. As we saw in TPM, Obi Wan is an inexperienced teacher, who is taking on a young boy who is not only too old for training, he has some emotional scars from slavery. And, that anger, along with some other stuff that will happen in AOTC, will lead Anakin down the wrong path. Is Anakin Skywalker responsible for his own actions? Yes. But as we will see, things should've been done differently where Anakin is concerned, because he did not have the chance to train as a baby, like the other Jedi have. Obi Wan, IMO, just did not know how to fully handle Anakin. He did the best he could, but was inexperienced, and his inability to fully train Anakin will play a part. You can deny it all you want, but it is a fact. Even Obi Wan himself said that he should've done things differently in ROTJ. He was Obi Wan's responsibility, and like a parent, no one wants their child to go wrong. Obi Wan is a great Jedi, but like everyone else, he is not perfect. He was inexperienced master, who was put in a difficult situation. He did do it to fulfill Qui Gon's death wish, but as we will see, even Obi Wan Kenobi is not perfect. To say that he is is totally inaccurate. It is just an unfortuante situation.

    This does not make Obi Wan a bad guy. But again, it shows that he is not perfect, and he is not the "godlike" figure some fans try to make him out to be. A hero? Yes. A great Jedi? Yes. A good person? Yes, but one who has flaws like everyone else.

    Anakin did choose the wrong path, but he was redeemed at the end. He is more than just some villain. And, Hitler, like anyone else, can be redeemed and do the right thing, if they choose to. Who are we to say who can be redeemed and who can't? We are not God, so we have no right to judge. Being judgemental, even against the people who do evil means that we are no better than the person(s) who committed the atrocities. There is a such thing as forgiveness, and in order to heal and become better people, we have to forgive, no matter what. Luke forgave his father, and the force forgave him, and it was evident, when it showed Anakin alongside Obi Wan and Yoda in the lightside of the force. And, as you saw, both Obi Wan and Yoda forgave Anakin. Obi Wan smiled at Anakin, which was proof of that. And in the EU, Leia eventually forgave her real father (Anakin). It took her a few years to do so, but she eventually did.

    People who continually see Anakin as some evil being, and not as a complex person, who was a good man, fell to the darkside, and was redeemed are missing the point. That is why Lucas had Anakin as an innocent 9 year old boy. He is setting up a traegic fall. He said that after the PT is over, we will look at the OT, and especially vader, in a much different light than we did 25 years ago, when ANH came out. I know this is something a lot of people don't want to face, but lets face the fact: things are not always in black and white. We all are capable of doing evil, if we choose to, and vice versa. It is the same thing with Anakin Skywalker, as he was a good man, turned villian, turn redeemed good guy.


    You can argue all you want, but fact is fact, and truth is truth. SW does have real life themes to it, and everything is not always in black and white. We all can be redeemed, and do the right thing, if we choose to. We all have a free will to choose. Yes, we all have to pay for the crimes we committed when we do decide to do the right thing, but it is necessary. It was the same thing with Anakin, when he paid the price with not only being confined to a mechanical suit and an imprisonment in the darkside, he paid for his crimes with is life, after he was redeemed and saved his son from Palpatine.

    With that said, I am through discussing this subject. With all due respect, I've grown tired saying the same thing over and over. It is more than just one's perspective. What I am saying is very true, and if one can not accept this and choose to be closed minded, than
  3. GS335 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2001
    star 4
    I did some thinking, and I was a little too harsh in my last post. I am very passionate where Anakin is concerned, and since I am a very compassionate person, I am trying to get people to see things differently. I still stand by what I've said before, but I shouldn't have been so harsh in doing so (i.e., the closed minded statement). I appologize for being too harsh, and I am sorry if people took my previous post the wrong way. I meant no harm, but I should've been more diplomatic in my choice of words.

    I just hope that someday, people will understand what I am saying, and where I am coming from. So no hard feelings? I have none at all.

    Well, thats all folks. Take care, and God bless :)
  4. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Obi-Wan is quite experienced in dealing with rebellious Jedi. He's dealt with Qui-Gon for the past 12 years. Obi-Wan is only Qui-Gon's second apprentice, and the previous one turned to the Dark Side, so Qui-Gon's experience doesn't make him a good candidate for the job either. Qui-Gon even admits that, between the two of them, Obi-Wan is the wiser man. He follows the Jedi Code, while Qui-Gon breaks the rules whenever it suits him. Obi-Wan will be a better master to Anakin than Qui-Gon could have been. As with Qui-Gon, he'll have to keep Anakin in line, and discipline him. Qui-Gon has done two things wrong already: he separated Anakin from his mother, and inflated his ego with all this talk about him being "The Chosen One." Obi-Wan, as usual, tries to keep him from getting a big head. The problem isn't that Obi-Wan was the one who trained Anakin, it's that Anakin shouldn't have been trained at all. Even the Jedi Council wouldn't touch him--he is too old, too much of a loose canon. Obi-Wan's youth is nothing to hold against him. His words in ROTJ really don't square well with the motivation that TPM gave us. He didn't accept Anakin as his apprentice because he thought he could train him better than Yoda, he took him on because Qui-Gon asked him to. If Anakin hadn't been trained, then the galaxy wouldn't have been in the shape that it was in the old films.
  5. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Anakin Skywalker is, no doubt in my mind, a tragic hero. George Lucas created Anakin Skywalker's character to show what can happen to any of us if we can't overcome our circumstances and allow our anger to lead us to bad choices. Anakin was not created to be some horrific villian--that's Palpatine--and Star Wars is not a western in which the characters are divided easily into the "good guys" and the "bad guys".

    I see a couple of problems here: one, people don't want to let go of the old ideas they latched onto when they saw ANH for the first time, the idea of Obi-Wan being the "good guy" and Vader being the "bad guy". No one wants to admit that it's more complicated than that, because then they might have to admit that their first impressions were wrong. Two, nobody wants to admit that we all have a little bit of Anakin Skywalker in us--we all have choices to make, and we all have the potential to become Darth Vader; some of us, due to life's circumstances, have more of a potential than others. That is not to say that we are not responsible for our choices; however, that is to say that we can sometimes understand why a person was led to make the choices he made.

    I perfectly understand why Anakin was led away from the Jedi and towards Palpatine--and I'm just basing this on what I know from TPM:

    1) He was taken away from his mother when he was nine. No, he didn't have to go, but he was nine, and given the opportunity to be released from slavery and to fulfill his childhood dream. He thought being a Jedi was power, glory, and heroism, seeing all the star systems and freeing the slaves on Tatooine. Sure, Qui-Gon told him it would be a hard life, but gave him no specifics; and since he was a child being given the chance to do what he'd always dreamed of doing, he wasn't thinking, "Oh, I wonder what Qui meant by that?"

    2) The Jedi Council are a bunch of stiffnecks tied down to a Code that is several million years old. A Sith Lord was working right under their noses and they didn't even notice, because "the Sith have been extinct for a millenia" [and God forbid that they might actually be able to outsmart us and reappear!]. The Jedi Council made an immediate enemy out of Anakin by being the first to shatter his childhood dream, all because of some idiotic age restriction that was once again tied to the million-year-old Code. And of course, Anakin should never be allowed to love his mother, or be afraid that something might happen to her while she is enslaved! :eek: My point is that if the Jedi Council is so brilliant, they should have seen that someone as powerful as Anakin, who could not help that he wasn't born in the Republic to be identified as an infant, should be trained, even if his training has to deviate from the norm in order to accommodate the fact that Anakin was not raised in the Creche. They should have taught him to deal with his emotions, not condemned him for having them.

    3) After all this, Anakin lost the only person, besides his mother and Padme, who had ever defended him--Qui-Gon. His training was left in the hands of a brand-new Knight who had called him "dangerous" and a "pathetic life form". Anakin knew Obi-Wan had sided with the Council against him, and that's bound to have an impact on their relationship. As far as Obi-Wan's methods of training--I don't really blame Obi-Wan for Anakin's fall. He shouldn't have made those initial comments about Anakin, but I think if the Council had also behaved differently, any impact of the comments could have been overcome. Obi-Wan was just out of apprenticeship himself and was given a very powerful and exceptional apprentice to train, and little or no instruction on how to train him. Obi-Wan also doesn't seem to be as empathetic a person as Qui-Gon was, and probably had a hard time understanding Anakin, who was so different from himself. That's a personality issue and wasn't really something he could help.

    Anakin had circumstances that led to his fall. He did what a lot of us would have done under these same ci
  6. ami-padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    Glad to see you in this thread, anakin_girl! :D You should have been here sooner! :)
  7. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Thanks, ami-padme. If I had known this was here, I would have been here sooner.

    (BTW, write some more fanfic when you get a chance--I love your stuff. :) )
  8. ami-padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    Thanks. :) I want to get back to fic, but I'm trying to keep my site afloat for now (sw.com...grrr... :mad:). You should stop by my site/boards. I get the feeling you'd fit right in. ;)
  9. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    I don't see Anakin/Vader as a completely evil person, but I do hold him wholely responsible for his actions, and I don't like the modern day trend of people who commit violent acts blaming everyone but themselves. "I was an abused child" does not excuse someone for committing murder. I can sympathize with many hardships, but I do not sympathize when someone takes their anger out violently against other people. That is a choice that many could make, but few actually do. Those who lash out violently know better. I am not unwilling to let go of the perception of Obi-Wan put forth in Episode IV. However, I do find his actions in the prequels so far to be at odds with the way he describes himself in ROTJ. His motivations have changed.

    The Jedi Council's age restriction, and the code as a whole, is well founded. It is designed to keep Jedi from giving in to their emotions and turning to the dark side. They must think objectively, not emotionally. A Jedi can only be reasonable expected to have that level of self-control if he/she has been undergoing training since birth. In ESB, Yoda even declares Luke to be too old, and only agrees to train him knowing that he is the last possible hope the Jedi have, and therefore they have nothing to lose. Qui-Gon should would have considered the consequences of taking Anakin away from his mother, and seen that the boy was on the road to the Dark Side. The Council saw that. Qui-Gon had no basis on which to believe that Anakin would bring balance, it was only a hunch based on his midichlorian count. Prior to him, Yoda had the highest midichlorian count, but no one ever suggested he was the chosen one. All signs around Anakin point toward his turn to the Dark Side, and the Council knows this. That is why they do not want him to be trained. They cannot be expected to indulge Anakin's desires simply because it is his "childhood dream." Doing so would be the equivalent of today's social promotion, wherein children who fail a grade are promoted to the next anyway not because they are prepared for it, but because the state doesn't want to hurt anyone's self-esteem. They must consider more than his feelings; they consider the risks associated with accepting him, and whether or not he is psychologically fit for training. He is not.

    Stealth and elusiveness are inherent characteristics of the Dark Side. When confronted with the possibility of the return of the Sith, they are skeptical that it could be the Sith (though Yoda acknowledges the possibility), they do understand immediate action is needed. And when it comes to detecting Sith, Obi-Wan deserves special credit: he sensed Darth Sidious's involvement when Qui-Gon did not. ("Something elsewhere, elusive.")

    Anakin was close to Qui-Gon, but they only knew each other a few days. Obi-Wan grew to respect Anakin, and vice versa. They were together for 12 years. His relationship to Obi-Wan is closer then he ever was to Qui-Gon. Anakin looks up to Obi-Wan like the father he never had, according to the site. Obi-Wan was making one of his trademark wisecracks when he said pathetic life form, and Anakin wasn't even there for that. When he calls Anakin dangerous, he's right. Anakin is dangerous. The Council, though unwisely, did eventually give in. If that is supposed to have diffused the harm done by Obi-Wan's comments, shouldn't the fact that Obi-Wan took him under his wing do the same?

    Anakin is different from Obi-Wan, but he and Qui-Gon are actually very much alike--they are both rebellious. His experience with Qui-Gon was the perfect preparation for dealing with Anakin. His entire apprenticeship was spent trying to keep Qui-Gon in line. His relationship with Anakin is more of the same. Qui-Gon even admits that Obi-Wan is the wiser man. He may be a new Jedi Knight, but he is not a premature Jedi Knight. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's relationship was not a typical one, it was the reverse of most. The relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin is the way it usually is: the master disciplines the apprentice. That is why Anakin resents Kenobi; there is no evi
  10. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Not a premature Jedi Knight, but is it reasonable to expect success from a new Jedi that immediately takes on a padawan, and the Chosen One at that?
  11. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    That Anakin is the Chosen One is irrelevant to how he is trained. He may have started late, but he gets the same treatment as any other Jedi. At this point in time, it has not been proven unequivocally that Anakin is the Chosen One; that doesn't happen until ROTJ. For now, he should be trained just like any other apprentice. Qui-Gon has inflated his ego enough as it is. ("Someday I will be the most powerful Jedi ever." Where did he get that idea?)

    From most new Jedi Knights, I might not expect success. But Obi-Wan is more experienced than other new Jedi Knights. While under Qui-Gon's tutelage, Jinn was the rebellious one, while Kenobi was the conservative one. Obi-Wan's role in that relationship resembled that of the master in most others. In both cases, he is there to bring his partner back to reality when he gets a big head.
  12. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I think I can tell part of why you see things the way you do. You seem to be more of a black and white type thinker. Anakin cannot and should be trained normally because his age has left him open to many emotions and situations that normal padawans have supervision for. It is necessary to adapt to each situation, and in Anakin's case, it seems to be clear that the Jedi did not adapt enough to him.

    And Lucas has said he is the Chosen One, repeatedly. To debate that point is foolishness (if indeed you are uncertain whether he is the Chosen One or not).
  13. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    I am not a black and white type thinker, and reducing my argument to such a simplistic term is no way to dissuade me. It is not that the Council that cannot adapt, but Anakin. Padawans who were trained later in life have invariably turned to the Dark Side, including Qui-Gon's previous apprentice. Anakin did turn to the Dark Side, and the fact that he was allowed to begin training later in life is one reason. Had he been trained earlier, it might have been avoided. The Council is not simply guessing that he might turn to the Dark Side, they have every reason to think that he will, and he does. They are proved right. He did not turn despite having started late, he turned in large part because he did not start early enough. They made an exception, and look what Anakin did.

    Yes, Anakin is the Chosen One. I am not saying he is not. However, only in Return of the Jedi is that made clear. Nothing prior to then proves that he is, so you cannot expect anyone to act upon what is, at the current point in the story, only a presupposition.
  14. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I completely disagree. It is the Council that needs to adapt to Anakin. He exists, and the circumstances exist. It is easier to adapt to one person and go from there than for one person to adapt to a code and discpline as if they were trained from a very early age, which is what most Jedi are. Since Anakin is such an exceptional case, they should have adapted to him personally.

    A failure to adapt to people and circumstances has caused no shortage of problems in human history. The system is not always best, and each situation is different.
  15. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    The Council adapted by letting him in at the end. That was a mistake--look where it led. His turn to the darkside is a surprise to no one on the Council; they saw it coming. That he turned to the dark side confirms their fears, and justifies their initial refusal. His training after he has been admitted needn't differ from the training of anyone else. He has gotten enough preferential treatment by being allowed to join at his age. There is no basis for more preferential treatment. Being the chosen one does not change training methods, Obi-Wan needn't treat him any differently than he would another apprentice.
  16. GS335 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2001
    star 4
    The council treating Anakin like some dangerous being, even at a tender age of 9 is not special treatment. They allowed Obi Wan to train Anakin, because he would've anyways, to honor Qui Gon's death wish. You can debate this all you want, but the fact remains: Anakin was different than any other Jedi in the temple. He did not have the luxury of training in the temple at age 1, like the other Jedi did. Because he has experienced emotion, especially slavery at such a young age, things should've been done differently with Anakin, since they did decide to train him.

    Instead of having him bury his feelings, they should've had him deal with his fears and emotions. Since this never happens, things just go from bad to worse. No one is making excuses for Anakin, but there are other factors in his downfall. And the fact still remains that Obi Wan should've done things differently with Anakin. Yeal, he maybe good in teaching him the Jedi ways, but he should've been taught to deal with his emotions. No one is saying, treat Anakin like a child. We are saying that there should've been some modifications in Anakin's training, because he was different than the rest of the Jedi, for all the right reasons I've said before. It is these mistakes that is part of the reason why Anakin becomes so out of control. We all have a choice, but when one is filled with emotional baggage, and never deals with it, or has the proper help, it makes for one ugly situation. This is one of the reason why you have such horriffic things happening in today's society, because anger and hate is one of the motivating factors. Remember, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. Hate also leads to rage, and then murder. This is what happened to Anakin for all the reasons I've said before. Nothing can excuse Anakin's evil actions, but things should've been done differently with this guy. I am not saying that Obi Wan is the blame....all I am saying that Obi Wan was put in a very tough situation, and it turns out that it is more than what he can deal with. He just did not fully know where to go where Anakin was concerned, because he was unlike any other potential Jedi.

    I think this is why Obi Wan looks so sad when discussing Anakin to Luke in ROTJ, and even ANH. He is sad, because he watched a good man throw his life away, and embrace the darkside. He also holds himself the blame, because Anakin was his responsibility, and he was not successful in training the young lad. He shouldn't blame himself, because he did all he could do in training Anakin, with what he knew. But, when you are a parent and watch your child go bad, how the heck would you feel? Even the best of us makes mistakes, and those are lessons we all learn from. No one is perfect, including Obi Wan, and the Jedi. To say that they are perfect is totally inaccurate and false.

    Finally, the SW saga is about Anakin's rise, fall, and redeemption. He was a good man, who made a foolish choice in the aftermath of the Clone Wars. And, he made a choice to do the right thing in ROTJ, when he destroyed the Emporer,and saved his son. He did it out of love and compassion, not hate. At that moment, he conquered the dark emotions in him (anger, fear, hate, rage, murder) and was redeemed. Yes, he did have to pay the price for his actions, but it is all apart of the redeeming process. He died as a good man, and died as a Jedi. And as I said before, he was forgiven, by Luke, Obi Wan, Yoda, and the force. He fulfilled his destiny as the chosen one.

    With that said, he was a traitor, but at the end, he died as a hero. A traegic hero, but still a hero. The ending was sad, but the circle was complete. The cycle of hate was destroyed, and Anakin Skywalker was redeemed. He represents the good and bad in all of us. He, like everyone else, is flawed. He represents what can happen when we give into hate. Furthermore, he represents a person who can be redeemed and change, when they choose to. Anyone is capable of atrocities, if they allow anger and ha
  17. GS335 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2001
    star 4
  18. GS335 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2001
    star 4
  19. GS335 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 22, 2001
    star 4
  20. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    That's ludicrous. Why would you not change training methods if the situation called for it? Are you that inflexible? Anakin is an exceptional case and should be trained individually, not according to how everyone else is. In fact, that's how everyone should learn, but that's another story.

    It's obvious that the "regular" training methods didn't work, so maybe if they had adapted better, things would have worked.
  21. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
  22. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    What GS335 and KnightWriter said.

    Of course Anakin needed exceptional training--Anakin was an exception to the rules. As I said earlier, if the Jedi were so brilliant, they should have found a way to teach Anakin to deal with his fears. They certainly shouldn't have ridiculed him for having them, when he couldn't help it.

    Obi-Ewan, you have made some good points (about Yoda being open to the possibility that the Sith are back, for example), and you are a lot more civil than some of the other Anakin-haters, but one thing remains--you do seem to be a "black-and-white thinker" in spite of your arguments to the contrary, because you don't seem to be willing to see the characters as more complicated than just "good" and "evil". Also, you seem to be a disciple of rules, no matter how ridiculous the rules are. Some rules are made to be broken. The Jedi Council's lack of flexibility caused their downfall.

    It was not a mistake to train Anakin. It was a mistake to be inflexible with his training methods, and that is ultimately what caused his fall. He did not have their support. He had Palpatine's.
  23. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Well, perhaps even if they didn't train him, Anakin still would have vanquished the Emperor. I mean, it was a prophecy, therefore it's like fate, you can't fight it. So maybe even though Anakin made all the terrible mistakes and led the dark path throwing his good life away, his fate was stronger and he still killed the Emperor and saved his son. (Although, as fate would have it, if Vader didn't kill the Emperor, Lando would have by blowing the death star II, so fate was REALLy stackked against Palpatine.)
  24. PruneF8ce Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2002
    star 4
    it was unfortunate that he knew that he was the Chosen One because he undeniably (to himself) knew that he was stronger (with the force) than any other Jedi, which built up his uncontrolalble over-confidence

    I imagine that WOULD lead to something not right. Also, he wears different robes and such from the rest of the Jedi. This aint healthy IMO. No pedestals. He'll begin to think his opinion on what a Jedi should be is superior.

    I think of the Dark Side as a whirlpool or Quicksand. Once youre in it, its incredibly hard to stop. Its also deceiving and seductive in making you swear to your grave that its the "correct way" of doing things.


    Obi-Wan McCartney:
    I am pretty sure the Emperor shows him a quick and easy way to lose fear, to mask it with hate and violence.

    Yes. Also, Anakin's fear of things not going right with him leads him to dominate others and feel in control, the Dark Side.

    But still, Sidious tells Anakin something that he wants to hear, so there IS manipulation in this, its just not ALL of Sidious' fault.

    By Duckman:
    If you look at the OT, the only truly evil thing Vader does in all the films is strangle that Captain at the beginning of ANH.

    Apparently, you havent seen the other movies. ;)

    But Anakins redemption at the end of ROTJ showed that his human side prevailed at the end. The way he is in Ep1 and 2 is back.

    When he cut off his father's hand, he understood, because of the cave, what he could become and the twisted evil inherent in his actions. This helped give him the courage to deny it, where his father instead was totally ignorant and so had no defense against the evil of the Emperor. That is Obi-Wan's true failure.

    Perhaps Obi Wan failed at that. Very possible. BUT, if Anakin gets a vision just like the cave, there is no excuse. Its vivid.





  25. haakun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 13, 2002
    star 4
    come on, Obi-Wan McCartney... admit it... you hate anakin/vader. ;) ;)
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