SWRPF Archive Forum reforms: Seeking input!

The holiday season is finally here and that means more time to devote to the JC (for me at least)! I?ve been trying to work on some reforms for the RPF this week, and lo and behold, our head admin puts forth a proposal for JC-wide growth and development. Now, either all the mods? brains run on the same wavelength or this week has just been full of spooky coincidences; in any case, what you guys need to know is this: We are seriously considering making some changes to this forum, and would like your input.

Two main concerns:
An ever-increasing hostile atmosphere between players, new and old

and the major point of contention?

Non-Star Wars RPGs


Short of locking everyone in a virtual room and forcing people to get along, I?m not sure how I can eliminate the first one. As to the second concern, however, we have a possible solution.

Let?s explore (this is by no means guaranteed ? I?m not even sure if it?s a good idea, but it?s worth discussing) the possibility of creating a second forum specifically for non-Star Wars RPGs. The Mod Squad would like to expand the focus of the boards as a whole, and this seems like a fitting outgrowth considering the huge interest in non-Star Wars games from the members of this community. My personal concern is that these non-Star Wars games may crowd out the Star Wars games?hence the idea for a second forum. Perhaps with the competition and tension removed, we can focus on improving peer relations.

Please use this thread to make your opinions known on the subject (or suggest any other possible solutions/reforms). As always, my PM box is open should you prefer a private discussion.

Thanks in advance,
NP

I think a board for that would be awesome, though I'm not sure if it'd be very active...

*Sidles in*

Well.... as non-Star Wars RPGs have traditionally been my forte, I think the idea of a second board would be absolutely amazing. Although, some points on the subject, most I'm sure you know NP, but maybe to the others...

Non-SW RPGs carry their own special challenges and considerations. I'd love to go forth with the idea of a new board, but I fear it would be swamped with very ill-composed RPGs and would die on its feet. What SW RPGs have above non-SW ones are that all RPers pretty much have some grasp of the concepts and ideas at hand with SW (from the films and for some, the books). Not to mention that it seems players just have a better feel for SW games. If you look around the RPF, traditionally and empiracally, non-SW RPGs are extremely hard to launch and few ever get past their infancy. The Grand Exceptions to the rule seem to be Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings RPGs, which could be chocked up largely to their co-current nature with Star Wars. That X-Men RPG did pretty good too. But this is all just point proven, I mean, when you can count on one hand the really successful non-SW RPGs there has been, thats kind of disheartening.

Now, whether the problem lies in that folks never do non-SW RPGs, or that they are harder to run is something that remains unclear. But as a GM of 4 Non-SW RPGs in the past, it is frustrating to have most of them conk out around 300 posts. Because they are so open ended, they need an especially well crafted style of GMing to even get them past launch, not to mention dedicated players.

If a non-SW RPG board were to be put forth, it would require a particularly vigilant style of GMing, that is sure. Again, the open ended nature of the RPG just leads to more room for TOS abuses and flaming, either in the ideas or in the frustration of struggling with mechanics to get a game up and running. I dunno, when you really dive down into the nitty gritty of such an idea, it gets awful complicated.

Not to say I wouldn't absolutely love it of course! It would be marvellous and I would be there all the time... But when kicking around ideas of course, you gotta consider everyone...

Interesting idea though NP, and Heaven knows it'll be on my mind for a bit.

-I_H

As someone who doesn't do Non-SW RPG's, I would like to see them seperated from the regular RPF to keep the front page less cluttered. But I can't help to agree with Imp. Iv'e seen alot of Non-Sw RPG's come and go in my short time here at TFN and it seems the new forum as a whole will only have a minimal amount of succesful RP's while being filled with locked failed ones. So in conclusion, I'm glad I don't have to make the final decsion. BTW NP, you are doing great here, and what other changes can we expect at the RPF?

Imperial_Hammer, here non-SW RPGs are restricted to Mod approval first before posting it on the forum. Should the new forum be allowed the same freedom SW RPGs are given, there may be more successful non-SW RPGs. Mainly because more people can start what they want without having to get approval first. Of course some moderation will be needed to keep the chosen games within TOS agreement and to keep redundant games from popping up. Two to three different WWII theater games at one time should be enough, for example, anything more would be redundant IMHO.

The new forum should be a trial forum for say a period of three to six months. If the forum is not succeeding (both in post activity and RPG success) then the forum should be closed and non-SW RPGs brought back here.

First, let me preface this by saying, despite that ugly abbreviation under my username, I've actually been here for quite a while under a different moniker, and many of you likely know me but simply don't realize you do. At this point, I'd like to keep it that way, as the point of by reregistering was to start over completely. I'll leave it at that.

Second, I agree that a new forum, if created, would be far more unpredictable and require much more frequent mod intervention than this RPF. However, I disagree that a new forum would have a lack of activity. Non-SW RPs, like the aforementioned Harry Potter, LOTR, and X-Men ones, can most definitely succeed as much or even more than the average SW RP. I don't think, though, that just because SW RPs outnumber non-SW ones at present means a new forum will be quiet. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have wanted to make a non-SW RP but decided against it- or decided to convert it to an SW one- if they were rejected when they asked to make it or if they simply didn't want to go through extra trouble. Of course, I can't say much about the quality of an RP if its creator is willing to sacrifice its setting for the sake of saving time, but the point remains.

I'd like to add that we really need, and I've said this before, albeit under a different name, is unlimited edit time. If fanfiction has it, why can't we? What is an RP, after all, but cooperative, rules-based fanfiction? It would be very useful to be able to, say, edit the first post with names and character sheets of players as they join, availible characters that update as spaces are filled, or messages from the GM that players might not see otherwise if the game moves very quickly. Sure, there's a potential for abuse, but it's very, very slight and could be easily amended should a situation arise.

Last but not least, I want to really congratulate NP on the amazing job she does keeping this forum in top shape and making it the best place I've found to RP on the internet. Good job, NP!

I agree with Mitth on this one. Lets try it for a while and if it isn't working out, scrap it.

My reasoning is this;

I spent just aobut all my time on the forums here...and I like having all my boards in the same place. I like that I can run down the threads and post for each of my characters with out having to forum jump. I can post in a Non-SW RPG, then a SW RPG, go back to the main page, check for replies to my posts, and start over. With a new forum, I would have to go to the other forum, check it, post, come back, check this forum, post, go back...etc.

BUT, I like the idea of freely open NON-SW RPG's (open with out approval) So I think I could handle the forum jumping...


Now, as for bickering between Midbies/Oldbies and Noobs. I belive most of this is due to lack of "Post Etiquete" IC:'s, Locations (if needed), Tag's, poor grammar and spelling, and posting in Present Tense of First Person.

Prehapps, these issues, could be resolved through a Training RPG...GM'd by some of our older and greater RPer's...in which n00bs could be "trained" in RPing....

Another possible solution, (and this is To GM's) Make your newer RPer's give you a sample RP as part of their Character sheet...to show you they know the proper way to RP....


And finaly, I want to diddo what was said above. Unlimited Edit Time sounds VERY good. I remeber when the Crimson Jedi ran a Round Robin in the FanFic Forums...but it was run VERY much like an RPG, though we were allowed a bit more control over others characters. The unlimited ablity to edit posts was a great help when people did things impossible, or things against the rules of the boards and the RR.

I can only remeber 1 time in the whole 6 months we ran it that we had ANY problems...and, as much as I hate to say it, it was my fault for not completely understanding the rules.


And, I also want to Diddo the above posters final sentiments towards our Moddess NP. You've done a great job over at the EUC, and an even greater job.

/>/>

DVC, we do have the RPF Adoptions thread here. I have seen alot of people who get helped out by oldbies who were willing to train them. I myself was adopted recently and have found it very useful. I think the Community Center, Adoptions Center, and Connections Threads should be 'stickied' and put on the top of the first page because they are all very helpful threads and can sometimes get lost easily.

I do not think any more restrictions should be put on non-star wars RPG's.


I also think the forum should be changed to the RIALROAD FORUMS and make me god.

The ad holder has a train, isn't that enough?

All that's needed is some and a sense of humour.



I'll add my own sentiments in saying that creating a separate board for non-SW RPGs would be a great idea to trial!! We will never really know how active or successful the games are until, basically, we actually do it. A grand idea, to be truthful!


Unlimited editing time could work. But only for the first post, in my opinion. I see no need at the moment for the editing time to change for everyone's posts. Being able to add current players into the opening post, however, could be a plus.


Regarding DVC's comment (and YoungAngus's response), the adoptions program does have some grand results. I never went through it, however I've seen people that have and I'll just say that it does voluuuuuumes for the newer players. It is, in essence, what your 'training' is, DVC. Also, previously, although not exactly active now, we had the game: RPF Adoptions Presents - Star Wars: Fate of the Galaxy. It was a training ground, in a sense, for those that were adopted.

However, I think that the current adoptions thread needs a large shake up, and even so far as creating a new thread. To give it a cleaner/newer feel. Recently someone asked which page the latest update was on?something that would usually be quite visible.



Of course, I can't post here and not say a big thank you and brilliant job to NP! Fantastic work, applause and lamingtons all 'round!

I think having the non-SW games on another forum is a good idea, but for different reasons than stated. First it would just clarify the boards. Second, those who only play SW games (like myself) don't have to wade through the new games every day to find what we want to play.

My biggest recommendation would be to not allow rookies to GM. One poster above mentioned sme sort of verification that said "okay, I can play an RPG". I am not asking that for aspiring GMs, but I really get annoyed when someone barely a week into registering into the boards suddenly starts an RPG, then complains that no one is playing it. Well Duh! You don't know how to RP, let alone GM! My personal recommendation is to make it a requirement to both be on the JC boards and active in the RPF for at least one year and to sucessfully play at least one game hosted by someone else. If one can prove they are a good player, then maybe they'll be a good GM.

I'm just really tired of the "It's Sith vs. Jedi! Play!" type games with no premise, no story, nothing. 90 % of the time they are hosted by '05ers.

By the way, for you newbs who think I'm being totally unfair... check this out. It's a game I started up and tried to run.

This is my old game.

Look. Nice long story, good premise, everything laid out and planned for players. I tried to make it like video game RPGs, just pick your character from the available options and go.

IT STILL FAILED after only a few short months. It's very hard to be a GM.

I would like to see more non-SW RPG's in this forum, I don't think they would crowd out the SW's RPGs at all, but that is just me.

As for relations between members new and old, from my experience the ones that our RPG has issues with are for 2 reasons. Either they that take everything too personal, and then get an attitude about it. Our RPG clearly states that characters will die, but some get uppity when it actually happens. The other issue is that some just don't read the rules, and it is clear when gaming that they are barely reading the RPG as it is going, that is more of the issue of learning the ropes sometimes and gets better as they get used to the forum (for most people).

These are just instances of personal habits though, and there is nothing that can be done about changing a person other than having the adoptee thread/game.

I don't think there is a newbie/oldbie gap in here though, at least it does not seem like there is.

Just for my two credits worth:

While I think the idea of a non-SW RPG forum is a good step for board-wide expansion, there is the very real possibility that it will further fracture the RPF community. One of the reasons this forum has been so successful is because of the strong ties that have existed between players. Even temporarily diverting some of the community elsewhere has the potential to foster divisiveness that will be hard to undo.

It is really important, then, that both the issues NP identified be considered together. I_H makes great points about the actual process of delivering content, but he himself has proven that this can be overcome, so I suggest the real concern lies in whether a new forum will be beneficial for the RPF community. In regards to growing community, there are a few things I'd like to comment on:

Firstly, we need to put a stop to all spamming, whether it be in the community discussion thread, within RPGs or by the creation of 'spam' RPGs in the forum itself. People cannot get to know one another as people and as roleplayers when the community is swamped by ill-considered posts that are not made for the benefit of the community. If people want to chat privately about things, use PMs.

Secondly, as someone has already mentioned, all RPF 'programs' should be stickied so that people a) can find them and b) will be inclined to consider them relevant.

Thirdly, and somewhat drastically, I think posts made in the RPF should omit the date on which the poster signed up. So long as everyone carries around this fictionalised hierarchy in their head, assuming competency based on an arbitrary date, then there will always be tension. Everyone who has commended the adoptions program has pointed out something significant - positives flow from experienced and inexperienced players working together. People's writing can speak for itself - anyone can see that quality players don't need a date to validate their work.

Anyway, that's enough ranting from me. Since I've been rather picky above I should really end on the positive observation that this is one of the best run forums I've ever seen. That we are even discussing these things is proof of that.

I think that's a great idea!
that would make the boards alot less cluttered, making it easier for people to find a thread.

I'm in two minds for this, it would be easier, so that players wuold not need to have Mod permission, making it easier, but surely it would divide the RPF?

The idea is a good one, and i would love to see it happen, but tne main problem with non-SW rpgs is they always seem to die, as I_H said, and unless serious interest is sparked, won't it die?

And will the one rpg-per-user rule exist for both forums?

I don't post as much as some but I'll add my 2 cents.

I think trying to limit how long a person has to be a member before they can start a RP would bring new growth to a dead stop. I thought the point was to get new players not stop new ones from joining. Just because someone is new doesn't mean that can't RP or GM, it doesn't matter how 'old' you are, doesn't mean you will make a good GM.

I find that alot of posters will jump down new peoples throat if they make a mistake, which makes them leave. Alot of RPs are started that shouldn't be, but maybe give them a thread much like the The RPF Community Center: Your place for RPG discussion where the can say 'hey I have this idea for an RP, it is..' and have the older and better posters help them out in making a good RP and how to run it. If you want to cut back on the amount of RPs that are plotless, you got to help the new guys out, or don't expect them to learn. So having RPF programs stickied will help alot, because those are the threads new posters read, but I really think they need to be cleaned up, and with less spam talk.

I think unlimited edit time is a must, not just for the first but for all posters. I was really surprised when I saw that I only had a limited time to edit my posts here.

I agree with Sai-Mera_Saa that two boards could cause more fractures, and make it alot harder for new posters to feel at home in the boards.

Well I guess that is all I have to say. It may make sense or it may not, most the time what I say doesn't Good luck either way, hopefully this plan to grow the boards works out.

Such interesting posts.... hmmm... how to tackle....

On Questions Raised: I like the testing idea, and agree that if its made, it should be put to a test to see how it does. What about middle results though? What will be the fail/succeed criterea?

And about different styles of RPing? Is that what we should do? Three games per general topic? Very interesting ideas that should be taken into consideration. How would one define different topics?

And totally differently... would the one-game-rule be in effect? I think it personally should to keep quality up. Perhaps a game in the RPF and a game in the Non-SW RPF?

On Unlimited Edit Time: I don't really think this would be so much of a big deal. Sure it would be nice, but I don't think it causes huge problems. A GM just posts new updates as spots get filled and all that. Its a very linear and logical process. Reading through an RPG is an essential part of playing it. The abuse caused would be far more hassle than the benefits of running to date firstposts.

On the Oldbie/Newbie Split: I agree firstly, with DVC, that its largely post ettiqute violations that really grate on peoples nerves. That and bad-spelling, all that jazz...

I think it comes down to basically, experience. I've seen notable people get better by just doing it long enough. But the process ain't always simple and easy, thats for sure.

In my opinion, the Community Thread, Adoptions, all that jazz..... just not doing enough. I had high hopes when adoptions and the sponsored game came around, but both threads seemed to fizzle away.

I mean, NP can cap the Rules of the RPF thread, and put as much exclamation points as she wants on the title, but people just don't seem to read them. I always say to folks entering the thread, don't rush into games, don't post something, don't loose your cool basically. Observe, and when in Rome, do as the Romans do. Same should apply here.

And I think this is a big issue, now that I re-read this. This stickying of threads and all. We have that right now. Its on the top link bar on every RPF page. And yet, people just don't follow them. Its something we have to really think about.

Now, the solution to such a problem, well, can go both ways. Like anything, you can punish or reward. We can take Tyi's route and increase/revitalize/expand newbie services like Adoptions and their sponsored game. It will be a lot of work, and may suffer the same fate that their predecessors had. Or we can take Skye's approach and slam some restrictions on them to make them shape up or ship out. Now doubt such an approach has merits, but at what costs?

Perhaps a middle ground is in order? I for one am a big fan of the "Training Ground" idea for new players. I think it simply works. If surrounded by a good GM or good players, people will get the message. But right now, not everyone is interested in the Grounds. They go off and do other things. Perhaps posters should have a mandatory time there? Or prove themselves before they are granted admittance into the RPF proper?

I know it all sounds very draconian, and I am loathe to suggest it, but if there is such a rift, I don't know if there is any other way. Like NP said, short of locking people up in a room, or fiating compassion or the like, its very hard to solve. I don't believe there is a rift because oldbies simply do not like newbies, but rather they get annoyed with them. Why? Because they are not as experienced as the oldbies. Solution? Get them experienced. How? Well, thats what this thread is here for now ain't it?

On the GM Time Ban: Interesting, but I dunno. Aweful harsh. Would yield results no doubt. Question is to the consequences. Would that result in less games coming about? Would we loose incoming players altogether? A thing we value in this RPF is its vibrancy. If we stifle incoming players, we kill the goose that lays the golden egg. As corney as it may sound, new players really are our future, and we have a duty to ensure that threads such as the RPF

I've been a big supporter for getting the best out of our newbie players and teaching them all we can. Sadly due to a lot of interuptions with various things, the adoption game 'Fate of the Galaxy' which I attempted to develop didn't last as long as I would have hoped to, mainly because it lacked a certain element to allow newbies to grow and learn. What, I'm not really sure, but I am more then willing to try again if the support is there.

Secondly, in terms of allowing newbie players to start their own RPG's, I don't see this as a huge problem. For one, you have to learn somewhere, and there are those that are able to jump straight in without any problems while others struggle to gain attention, etc. It's a tough issue, but again I'd like to see some opportunity for allowing new players to develop their skills, including how to be a GM.

One possible recommendation that could be made is to have a newbie RP forum, seperate of the main Star Wars RP's and RP General forums. It can act much in the same way as the general Welcome New Users forum (i.e. Welcome New Players forum). It can be the first port of call for all new players, a true training ground for them to hone their skills. The Adoption program, Adoption RP and a range of other threads could be developed and GM'd by a select group of RP'ers (NP included, if so inclined). Therefore, there's a clear port of call for all new players wanting to learn the ropes, instead of hunting for the various newbie threads (some of which are not sticky threads). Now that's a suggestion, and can be considered if you'd all be willing to.

Finally, I'm in support of seperating sw from non-sw RP's, which in turn can allow for more non-sw RP's aswell, something I think we'd all like to see in some way or form.

I don't know if I would be so keen on an entire forum for new people. I don't see an issue with generation gaps now, but I think that would go a long way toward creating one.

Not to mention that the best way for a new RPer to learn is by observing some of the amazing role players we have in this forum, keeping newbs in a seperate thread will cut them off from that experience. Also it may become a breeding ground of "bad habits", minor things that may fly with other inexperienced players but would be annoying to most of the regulars around here.

Just a quick note I thought I'd throw out there. For me, when I visit this forum regularly, I actually never see those top links to those four (or really three ) threads. It's just all apart of the group of links at the top, which all meshes together. This may be a fault purely of me, but I can't help but wonder if this is the case for others.

A sticky thread, however, I do notice, and I can easily see the latest poster for anything new (with the latest poster now being listed these days).

So I wonder, does anybody, honestly, actually notice and know of the links up at the top of the forum? Or is it just me?

In order of appearance:

NaboosPrincess

First and foremost, I have to offer my open support and joy at seeing you offer an address to us all, especially when it is of such, potentially, great magnitude and importance. Any effort to reform what is already great, but could use improvement, is a worthwhile cause. That you have received a proposition from another administrator to encourage JC-wide growth and development is, among other things, a welcome bonus.

To comment on your first concern, I'd have to say, any hostility, whether increasingly apparent or not, regardless of who might be involved, is an issue that is worthy of the highest attention. The purpose of our being here is two fold, the first personal and the second implied. Those are: To have fun, and to share what fun we have, respectively. None of us would be here if we did not gain some joy, hope, happiness, excitement, or fun from these boards, so it's not unfair to assume that these basic things are what have drawn us all here, and kept many of us here. A step further, if I may, is the assumption that we all share the view of the creators and hosts of this little place, that is, to share our experience as a community. Those of us that do not, are likely to leave and there's little we can do to change that.

The heart of the matter is finding a series of solutions or ways to resolve the concerns that people might have. I'm sure you know that no single solution will solve every problem or issue that arises, whether it's hostility or something else, so, it's natural to imagine a number of different solutions being necessary. Now, I will not make the mistake of suggesting all these solutions, simply because it'd be an onerous effort that might not yield what results we desire. Instead, I propose a method for dealing with this issue and the matter of finding such solutions.

One option is that we address these problems and hostilities as they arise, at the risk of allowing them to present themselves to begin with. I do not believe any single person should bear the burden of attempting to solve all of the problems of a single forum, or board, nor should it be implied in their responsibility. We're here as a community and most problems can be solved before they arise with the use of some foresight.

The easiest way to go about doing this is to identify the biggest problems and then devise ways of addressing those first. If hostility is the problem, it is not because of a single reason, but a number of reasons. Any hostility that arises within a game should, I expect, be addressed by the game's administrator, or game master, or creator. Failing that, the players, where appropriate, may wish to offer a word of peace. The last thing we need is for hostility to be expressed openly if it's born out of anger and heated emotion that comes from a moment of unhappiness or displeasure. These things could just as easily be resolved via private message(s) between the parties concerned. If their dispute cannot be resolved, the game master or other players may need to intervene. At worst, the person may be asked to leave the thread or ignored. As sad and disheartening it is for me to suggest as much, I know such a method would be effective. Complaints that are trivial in nature need not be brought to the forum Moderator unless there is some legitimate concern or breach of the terms of service, such as in the instance of flaming or other misconduct.

In short, my suggestion to resolve any hostility is through the following process. (Note that each consecutive number is the next step toward resolution where the previous step failed to offer finality and resolve.)

1) Parties involved should correspond via private message to seek mutual agreement and resolution.
2) Players or members within the thread concerned should make an effort to mediate or placate open argument.
3) The administrator, or other person 'in-charge' should address the issue and offer a resolution.
4) If no resolution is reached, the administrator may ask the person(s) involved to vaca

Penguinator-176, that's exactly the kind of post I am looking for. I hope that everyone can add to the discussion in this thread, regardless of experience, reg. date, etc.

Thank you to everyone for the lengthy responses thus far. I'm going to be compiling a sort of report of the major suggestions and thoughts sometime this weekend, so please, speak up if you haven't already.

I think alot of the newer posters fail to read the helpful threads such as The Training Grounds one posted at the top and they instead jump into every RP posted here. I admit when I first started coming here, I didn't read that thread until a couple weeks of joining and playing in different RP's.

I like the idea of a seperate "Welcome" center thread for new posters. And perhaps for new Posters to be able to join certain games, they will have to go through a mandotory training center. A GM can decide if some sort of training is required to join in thier game.

I know that may sound like it is taking away from the freedom that people have here at TFN, but it could eliminate the hostility between noobs and oldbies.

I don't think it should be nessacary to take away the dates that a poster registered. I myself am very proud of my "05" Title.


EDIT- I just went back to the RPF main page and noticed NP took my idea into consideration and "Stickied" certain threads. I think this will be very helpful. Thanks NP.