SWRPF Archive Forum reforms: Seeking input!

This is my first post ever in this forum. But it's also my most important. I want you all to know how much we value your input, ideas, and constructive criticisms. I brought a number of ideas to the Mod Squad this week outlining a plan for board expansion and growth beyond the films. I saw RPG's and RPF as quite possibly the most important area. There are other new and exciting ideas coming so keep a watch on things.

From all of your posts, which I've read in their entirety, I can see the enthusiasm is there to give this a try. If any of you post at other sites that offer RPG's, tell us features or ideas that work there that we currently do not offer but could offer. Creating a new forum is technically easy on our end. It will take lots of love and effort on your end to give it life and continued success. I'm here to lend a hand in whatever way I can do that and to say enjoy this time in developing the future of these boards that you all make great.

 

I agree with the others and think that a separate forum for Non-Star Wars RP is a GREAT IDEA. Why you didn't do it sooner I'll never know. But it's definately a good time to start one and I'm sure those who like doing those RPs would love to not to have to wait for your approval.

Any chance you might consider allowing us to have a chance to create more than one RP at a time. Say limit us to two maybe three? Or will we have to settle for one at a time?

I'm all for UNILIMITED time to edit a post. It's really annoying to see a flaw in your post and not be able to fix it because you ran out of time that was alloted to correct a mistake. And as some suggested it would be nice to add on the "cast" members so that if anyone has any confusion as to who's playing who they can look it up in the first post.

As to the bickering between factions of New, Intermediate and Old members. You'll never really be able to completely be rid of it, but I think the steps you are taking are good ones and should lighten the arguing a bit.

To lower the grammatical mistakes, typos, and spelling errors. Perhaps what would be helpful to install a spell checker within the reply box, which is VERY helpful and I have used it on other forums.

For checking grammatical errors, well...There's still Word or Word perfect. They're not the best but they can help.

I agree that more sense of humors, respect and patience for others would help things. Just remember everyone is learning.

 

I think that this, right here, is the BEST thing we can do at this point. I'm happy to see so many people that are interested in the Forum...that want to see change for the better.

So far, I agree with everything Imp Hammer has said...so I doubt there is any need to re-state it...

 

Ok, I'm going to add my two cents.

Cent one: I agree with the sentiment that seperating the SW games from the non-SW games would be great. I'm usually looking for a good game to read (I don't play that many, but I read a lot of them), and knowing what I get into before I click on the thread or forum would be great. Remember, there are a LOT of people who just lurk, and this forum is for them, too.

Cent two: One idea I think would be great is something similar to the Crimson Jedi in the EUC. What I've seen from them so far, is that they step up to the plate when someone new starts posting in the EUC, and help them find places to fit in, help them work on their style, etc. Darth_Fred is the most helpful person I have ever seen on these boards, and if we had people like him in the RPF, it would be great.

What I'm getting at is this: instead of seeing someone who is struggling to make good posts here but wants to contribute and getting mad at them and either flaming them or PMing them nasty comments, what if we had a group of dedicated volunteers who were willing to PM them, bring them into a WNP (welcome new players) thread, and talk civilly with them about improving their game, so that it's better for everyone? I can think of several on here who would be GREAT for this, if only from posts they've made elsewhere along these lines (LSA comes to mind), and from person experience in talking with people like this (I_H comes to mind).

 

I'll address goblin_fire ?s post since it brings up some good questions/issues:

I agree with the others and think that a separate forum for Non-Star Wars RP is a GREAT IDEA. Why you didn't do it sooner I'll never know. But it's definately a good time to start one and I'm sure those who like doing those RPs would love to not to have to wait for your approval.

Keep in mind that this is a Star Wars forum and that's why we have been wary about any non-Star Wars elements thus far (in any forum, not just the RPF). We've used the YJCC to discuss non-Star Wars stuff for some time now.

Any chance you might consider allowing us to have a chance to create more than one RP at a time. Say limit us to two maybe three? Or will we have to settle for one at a time?

One is, and will be, the limit (though if we create a new forum, then I think it would be fair to modify that rule to one per forum). But I believe this rule to be one of the best in the RPF. It encourages quality games and greatly reduces the chance of GM abandonment.

I'm not sure about the possibility of spell-checkers or anything. That's a major programming thing and we'd have to speak with zerosleep. I doubt it would be implemented on a forum-by-forum basis so we'll probably have to wait until they decide to implement it for the entire JC.

Unlimited edit time is a nice idea but do you guys really think we need it? While it might be convenient, I almost think it would create more problems than it?s worth.

 

*sigh* I just knew you'd address my post. lol.

Care to explain why you're hestitant about letting us edit our posts whenever we want? Because I really don't see why there is such a problem with it. Other forums have it and have had no problems. Why would here be any different?

 

I'm wondering this as well. How would it be more of a problem then help?

 

The suggestion of having unlimited editing time has some drawbacks you may, or may not be aware of. Any potential for abuse is not quite as small as you might imagine. Consider this brief example. A player may post that they have an army of battle droids, or something as small as a lightsaber, in a last ditch effort, or crafty attempt, to save themself, or outsmart an opponent. If done carefully, they could edit a month-old post to imply the presence of any such weapon, or creation/recruitment of an army, without being caught out. I don't think any of us wants to have to go back sifting through old posts, just for the sake of proving whether or not someone might be cheating. Indeed, this task is already hard enough, especially where subtle posting and implied actions are concerned.

Unless I am mistaken, Moderators are more than capable of editing major posts, like the opening post of a thread, at the game master/creator's request, to made any significant changes. Other than that, edits should not be necessarily extended to infinity in their availability timespan.

You'll find that editing in a FanFiction ensures consistency because there is but a single creator seeking to design a flowing story with continuity. RPGs, in comparison, are comprised of players, who, quite often, are in competition. Their goals are usually the cause of inconsistency and surprises, which is part of why these games are so great and dynamic. With unlimited editing time, however, they risk inconsistency and discontinuity.


Um...you know if that is the reason you have to be against the unlimited editing ability I'd like to point out some things.

1. It's not like you can't go back and edit your post to conform with theirs. Granted a pain but still- it can be done. If anything it'll probably frustrate them from doing it again.

And 2. If you're that worried about that happening, you could assign member groups. Say when a certain member reaches a certain post count (like a 1,000 or more posts) they recieve the ability for unlimited editing.

That way you can be sure that the member is serious about RP, has been trained well to respond to posts, and is used to taking hits and what not. It still might not prevent things like what was stated above. But it could reduce the risk.

 

The Unlimited Edit Thing: I'm definitely throwing my hat in with NP on the issue. Its not so much that it won't be handy. It will. But really, like, to a very very insignificant degree.

The only reasons I have heard brought up is that it will allow for 1.) Allow for current firstposts and 2.) Allow for revisions and the like.

For 1.) Current first posts aren't really a big deal. Like I said, RPs flow linearly. GM Updates as the RPG progresses fulfill this task and then some. Its more of a niciety than anything else.

For 2.) This is just all the more reason to put out good posts in the first place. Ninety Minutes is an awful lot of time. If you can't catch errors in that period, then you have to re-evaluate your playing style.

Also, if posts are way out there in the flow of an RPG, as in, you totally misunderstood what was happening, just null it. Just post, hey, in this post I was off dreaming, here is a better post. I've done that on occasion and its really no big deal....

As for the harms, I think LSA's response on the issue more than sums it up... (underlined by me for areas of emphasis)

And I agree one hundred percent. RPGs are all about competition. Having unlimited timespans opens up and pandoras box of issues. People changing posts, seeing someones response to an action and writing a response in ones post prior to counter it. It would absolutely destroy the mechanism of Role Playing as we know it, which is why I am firmly against the idea.

You have to put a balance out..... a relatively superficial convenience of error checking and first post updating versus leaving loopholes open that can wipe out the role playing system. Its absolutely positively not worth it...

Goblin: In answer to your post..

On your Number 1.) So that would be what the system would boil down to? A competing series of editing previous posts? It would absolutely collapse an RPG. RPGs have history, and history needs to be set in stone. If a game is founded on a shifting history, how can it ever progress, or even work? Character Development, an essential part of role playing is based on set past experiences. If this is taken away, such concepts are doomed for working.

Consider your idea taken to its logical conclusion: X edits his post. Y edits his post to X. X re-edits his post to Y. Y re-edits his post to X. X re-re-edits his post to Y. Y re-re-edits his post to X. I think the point becomes very clear in that RPGs w

 

We have to keep in mind the limitations of the messageboard system we are working on here. We don't have the ability to creat "member groups" or award special abilities outside of the basic categories of VIP, moderator, manager and admin. We have the ability to change the edit times in specific forums (we can set it for 30 min, 60 min, 90 min, or indefinite) but we don't have the ability to make certain posts (such as the first post of a thread) editable and others not. It's all or nothing.

I'd prefer to keep limited edit time and just have GMs PM or email me when they need something edited. This has worked well thus far, both in the RPF and EUC. I have several GMs in the RPF, and a few club leaders in EUC, who contact mods pretty regularly to update their threads and it's really not a problem.

 

I seem to be late here, but I will add in what I think. It is mostly me agreeing with the others.

I like the idea of a new non-Star Wars board. I find it slightly annoying when new users do not read the rules, and create a thread that is non-SW without NP's approval. That is also something that contributes to the registration date tension.

Onto the tension between the new users and old users. I have seen it die away a lot over the pass few months. I was never into the whole judging users on the reg date, but on their experience. If you look at someone like Despised...it says he is a July 05'er if I am not mistaken, but that is misleading as he is actually Darth-Dispicable, a reg date of '03. Many users fail to notice this.

Another thing that really bothers me is the amount of OOC chatter in some threads. I like the RPG's that just keep it with the IC and important OOC announcements from the GM's. I feel if someone has something to say, take it to PM...it's not that hard. Or, perhaps we could make an official OOC thread. Not for every single RPG, but one single one. However, that could get very jumbled and confusing...I am just throwing the idea out there.

Unlimited Edit Time: I don't like this idea. I agree, it is slightly annoying when you notice something wrong with your post and you have no time to fix it. However, if you read your post thoroughly before you post it, then there is no need for an edit time. Also, I do think there would be a problem with "cheating", because, as LSA said, it is a competition, and people do some bad things to win.

Spell Check: I don't think this would absolutly be needed. It would take some work from the Admin's, zerosleep, and possibly even NP when all you have to do is open a simple program on your computer such as Word. Also, there are websites out there such as spellcheck.net that you can use if you aren't sure on a certain word.

Training Ground Thread: I think this would be a good idea if we approach it right. Perhaps we could make a thread where people ask questions and experienced players answer those questions. Or, perhaps we could take an idea like the Lightsaber Combat thread, where experienced players duel the newer users, so they can get some experience on certain things.

That's all I have now. If I am a bit repetitive about some things peo[le have said, I apologize.

 

Frankly, not everyone has 90 minutes to kill on an RP forum to check, double check and even triple check a post. Not to mention, likes to post a redo-post when had they had the abilities before hand they could just change the mistake within the original post. Nor is it convient to wait for a Mod to edit a post.

Word and WP also don't catch every flaw, mis-spelling and grammar error. Spell check was just an idea. If you think using a different website solves the issue then fine! But at least put a link to it where members can see it and use it often.

Sorry to hear your server doesn't allow for more flexibility, seems you guys got the short end of the stick in many, many ways. So I guess in short my next and only remaining suggestion is to look for a better website hosting service because this one sucks.

 

Yeah, I was wondering about that myself. Last summer you guys said something about a move...but then nothing happened...what's going on with that?

 

Basically our site owner (Philip Wise) came to an agreement with IGN (our host) and so we will be staying with Snowboards. There's a thread in Comms if anyone needs more information.

And could we please try to keep things postitive in here? We are trying to find workable and practical solutions within the existing framework of these forums.

 

No need to get snappy man, it was just a solution to a problem so we do not have to make the admins go through more stuff than they have to. It doesn't take that long to read over your post and proof-read it before you post it, and possibly afterwards. The spell check catches mostly everything, and I am sure you can catch the rest.

What do you mean I could provide a link? I provided a link to that spellcheck place.

Also, I am not sure if this server sucks...it is a pretty good server if it can hold as many users and posts as this palce has.

 

spellcheck.net

It also has a thesaurus and a dictonary on it. I don't see the need for spellcheck to be added to this site, most of us have options such as the free site I linked above, WP, and I am sure a few other places.

I also don't think that we need unlimited edit times around here either, if anything that would create issues with people going back to edit stuff after the fact. Also it is not hard to double check and proof all of your work before it is posted, honestly from my experience I think most people around here don't mind waiting a little longer for a good post.

 

Well, what a great deal of food for thought. Forgive this post if it is rushed, but having just read the discussion I wanted to add a few thoughts on each of the matters raised in turn. Firstly, I'm thrilled to see so many people passionate about this forum - it's a passion I share and I congratulate the ModSquad on taking the time to reflect on where each forum can go as we head into a post-ROTS environment, and let me say I'm likewise pleased to hear that we're staying with IGN. A very Wise choice if you'll indulge this young fool the odd pun.

Now, to some of the issues raised:

1) Hostility between posters

Ah now, this corpse-like Horse gets ready for another good flogging. It is a trait of any transient community, that when a group of consistent participants get close, a communal feeling is formed and people get used to one another and depend on finding one another there when they come online. But, as life goes on and people grow older, some may leave the community or stop using the internet as much, and many new users - some quite young - will attempt to join the community. This inevitably engenders feelings of resentment amongst the old guard: quite often unfounded and unfair, yet no less understandable.

This isn't something that can ever be defeated, but can be ameliorated to an extent by the basics being covered. These are:

- The formation of mentoring programs, so as to allow the upper echelon of the community to invest time and friendship in the refinement of the newer - and thus, lower - echelon of the community.

- Vigilance not just by the moderating team, but by the community in self-regulating behaviour standards to maintain a level of civility: it is easy for a community to descend quite rapidly into a nasty level of "jumping" on new posters or simple mistakes, and it is the task of the same community to combat this.

- Set up programs or structures that encourage improvement from newer posters, and encourage a)participation via rewards for behaviour benefiting the community, and b)investment from older posters into the newer posters via these structures, be they the aforementioned mentoring program, awards programs, Guild systems or GM roundtables. (will expand on these later)

Although all of these are imperfect solutions, they will go a long way to resolving the more dramatic instances of conflict that may occur on the boards. As a past participant in some rather engrossing Out Of Character conflicts that threatened to stall some of the earlier RPGs on these boards, I can attest to the fact that the best compromises came not from the ModStick, but by peer-initiated mediation and resolutions.

2) Quality of posts/rpgs and newcomers

I've already covered this point, and will overlap it into some later instances and ideas, but it is important to touch on it again, because it?s important.

We can all agree that the future relies on two things, to keep the RPF at the standard where it - as LSA rightly affirms - stands out alone over the internet as forum based RPG community.

Firstly, that the quality of RPGing in the RPF is maintained; and that

Secondly, newcomers are allowed to fully engage with the community, the RPGs, and actively contribute to new ideas, RPGs and characters in new and established RPGs.

Now many posters may point out the obvious conflict here: if new posters - as indeed can be the case - are causing the quality of the forum to decrease, how can we just stand by and allow them carte blanche access to the RPGs and communities we've all worked so hard to build?

I suspect that the call for restrictions on access or members groups may all stem from this or some version of this perspective, but I'd like to outline why this is fundamentally wrong.

As I'll touch on later on, the key to not only a good community but a truly great community is the freedom of access, freedom of participation and engenderment of goodwill conveyed not to the average member of the community, but to the m

 

Very simple. Unlimited Edit Time opens the door to cheating and accusations of cheating whether that person cheated or not.

 

I have heard my favorite suggestion just now: a core RPG for the forums.

I don't really have any other opinions, just that I reallly, really like that idea. It could unite all the RPFers together.

And I do think the new forum would be a great idea for it.

 

I'm really into Protege-of-Thrawn's idea. The second forum could be used for a super uber-RPG, and a RPF Council Thread. I think this is a great idea.

 

I might as well make an attempt to convolute things a bit.

First off- Registration dates. They mean almost nothing, and are a pretty poor indicator of quality. This account of mine is rather old, and I'm not entirely sure why I have it, but that doesn't mean I'm better than anyone. It means I'm SUPREME OVERLORD HAH HAH HAH! KNEEL BEFORE ME!

Seriously, it's not much of an indicator of the person behind the account, that can only be discerned through their actions.

Secondly- Newbies. Everyone's been new at least once, everyone makes mistakes, everyone comes up with ideas that in retrospect, really, really, really suck. So it's better not to make a big deal about it and jump on them, especially if they're making an honest effort to improve. My first characters were two-dimensional cookie-cutter stereotypes, but we get better as we go along, provided they give us the chance. There's a lot of potential in people, if you don't go out of your way to crush them. That said, if they're going to be stubbornly stuck in their ways, refuse to play nice with the other kids or obey the rules, and are dragging down the quality of the game, then it's Wabbit season.

Third- Hostility. Newbie issues aside, there are still other sources for hostility, namely various annoyances. We all have our own little hot-buttons that when pressed, cause us to simmer, boil, and blow over. They might be styles, they might be devices, concepts, over-usage of cliches, whatever. But short of laying down ground rules, there's not much you can do about it, since it's difficult to mediate differences in personal taste. Unless of course there's some general agreed upon standard (like basic English skills), in which case you can offer advice (example: keep a dictionary handy, especially if you don't think you can spell it) or improvement.

 

My thoughts on the matter:

Registration date means very little. A young date, like mine (not brand-spanking-new but pretty close) might suggest a lower likelihood of being familiar with the rules, both written and unwritten, and also less name-recognition, but it doesn't mean that the person doesn't know how to RP or is a newbie to Star Wars RP in general. I've been role-playing since 1996, offline, and since 2002 online... just not here. So while I didn't get the tagging system right away (I usually played on LiveJournal or EZBoard, both of which easily allow multiple threads for one RP), it certainly didn't mean that I was starting with nothing.

Furthermore, I've seen a few people with reg dates a few years old that still post things that are so poorly written that they're hard to read and don't make much sense, and occasionally missing tags or not specifying IC/OOC. So it shouldn't be a newbie/oldbie issue as much as an RP etiquette issue, although I understand that there are more etiquette breaches from newbies than those who have been here longer.

I love the idea of a multi-thread, forum-wide RP, actually if that would be possible, that would rock.

I don't think that anyone should be barred from playing without a certain post count (unless the rules of that particular thread specify it) but a modest count and a short wait before GMing makes sense. For example, to begin a new thread one would have to have a date of October or earlier OR get permission from a moderator. Then in January it would change to November, etc. The mod bypass would allow those who really want to start and can demonstrate that they know what they're doing to begin anyway.

 

On Hiding Reg Dates: Quite a bit has been said on this, but I thought I would add in my thoughts as well. From my experience a registration date has not been the issue. Anyone who knows me somewhat well knows my liking of socks, especially for RP characters because it helps me keep personalities straight. I have joined many RPs as a fresh "newbie" with my socks, my true identity remaining hidden until a later time and have received no hostility. I am in agreeance that the majority of the hostility experienced is more closely linked to content of the post.

At times I have felt a sense of hostility towards newbies within various groups I participate in. When I see that hostility developing, I take the time to create a sock and enter into the group. I take on some of the more annoying characteristics of a poster who is uncertain of the hidden rules in the society and post. Then I take the time to let the users know how they're responses to me makes me feel. Complimenting the welcoming members on the warmth they emit and asking the hostile members to consider where I may be coming from and how they respond. I've found such use to be very helpful in maintaining a welcoming manner within several places I post.

On Unlimited Editing Time: From my perspective I see this as more of a problem then an aide. However, I do see the merits of longer posting times, so perhaps a compromise can be attained. For example, expanding the editing time to that of a day should allow ample time for the RPer to catch any mistakes yet allow for continuity to be kept within the RP. Further reading of the thread has shown that this compromise is not within the coding. If it were possible to attain it, it might be worthwhile.

On being able to update the first post or roster: I update the Roster for the Jedi Outcast RP. I found this to be a challenge because no one ever knew when the roster had last been updated. The Jedi Outcasts now have an easy way to locate the most recent roster. I created the sock Jedi_Outcast_Roster for the sole purpose of posting rosters. Because of this, players in the Outcast RP only need to look to the JOR's latest post to find the most recent list and also the rules of our RP. I find this helpful because it preserves the continuity while allowing the Roster to remain easily accessible. I also try to maintain the players withing that socks WUL so that they have another easy way to find that sock and thus the roster.

Another solution would be the one presented of requesting the kind assistance of NP .

 

On hiding registration dates

I have found on a few occasions that new users are frozen out by older members. Not often but as already has been said, you get groups of users that will not allow new members to join in with their conversations. This is clearly unacceptable. Whether you joined in '01 or '05 you have a right to post and make friends on these forums. This is supposed to be a friendly place where we can all come and enjoy ourselves.

On unlimited editing time

I think this would be not as practical as it sounds. Maybe a 12 to 24 hour period to edit posts but that is about it.