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SWRPF Archive Forum reforms: Seeking input!

Discussion in 'Star Wars Role Playing Archive' started by NaboosPrincess, Dec 1, 2005.

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  1. LadyZaraMarta

    LadyZaraMarta Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 21, 2004
    With the decision of who will be on the Council - perhaps a Compromise can be worked out?

    If there were 5 representing the year 2003 and older , perhaps 2 can be chosen by NP and the other 3 voted upon by the 2003 and older? Perhaps 1 alt can be voted upon as well.

    The same with 2004 and the same with 2005 .

    Perhaps those from the year 2003 and older can have 7 on the Council since they have more experience.
  2. NaboosPrincess

    NaboosPrincess Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 14, 2001
    Actually, I do like the idea of having slightly more Council members from older dates. Not a lot more, but maybe 2-3 more than the other groups. That way, we can still have input from newer members but benefit from the experience of the older ones.
  3. Imperial_Hammer

    Imperial_Hammer Manager Emeritus: RPFs star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 25, 2004
    On the Council: I say, for the Council, that the Moddess should be the one to choose its members....

    For the Reasons of:

    1.) Popular Vote is way too much work and hassle for the forum. Can you imagine, an elections thread where any user under the sun can propose to run? All the grandstanding and baiting that could take place on the issue. And then, to set up a committee to analyze all these votes and choose the winners four times a year? It would be almost a constant process of voting processes, a never ending political war. I really don't think that is in the best interest of the RPF. The scenarios of 8 way races and jockying out of thread and on AIM keep flashing through my head, and its not a pretty picture.

    2.) Popular Vote leads to people in the position that aren't the best for the job. As Skye said, it will become a popularitiy contest, and like it or not, positions should be based on merit alone. Appealing to an electorate (not to mention that you would have to deal with the possibility of low voter turnouts), could lead to Councilmen and Women not pulling their weight, and clashes within the Council as to the best choice of action. Also, its not inconceivable to envision RPG Families from different threads joining together to get as many of their players as they can into the top positions. In this "Age of Opportunity" for the RPF, I would want the best people at the helm to make sure our boards come out of this affair more robust and vibrant.

    3.) As to favortism, which of course is the main objection to having the Moddess choose, I think it can be countered by a rather simple reply. The Moddess simply cannot afford to be favoritist, for a number of reasons. One, all eyes are looking to her in this decision, should she choose, to act in a fair manner, and it would be unrational for her to damage her credibility so blatantly. Two, as she has a vested stake in the success of the forum, she too would want to have the best people working in the positions. To have councilmen and women who are inept, but in her "circle" is counterproductive to her ultimate well-being.

    Like Skye said, there seems to be no right way to set up such a body inside the RPF. But in the end, having the Moddess choose will be simplier, more effective, and more productive for the RPF. And as the forum will be open in the first place, any people "excluded" from her decision will be still able and willing to voice their ideas.


    EDIT: I would also approve the idea of more elder members on the council. I have always said that the bracket would be the most competitive, so having more of the distinguished members that reside past the '03 deadline would make more sense.
  4. Protege-of-Thrawn

    Protege-of-Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Mar 14, 2001
    Good points all, but the downside of having selection criteria the exclusive province of the Mod is that it conjures up the perception - real or actual - of clique forming or exclusion based not on merit but social status.

    A potential middle way may be this:

    1) The final composition is regulated by the moderator who ensures those selected conform to the needs of the council, particularly with regard to registration date and/or veteran status; HOWEVER

    2) This choice is guided by an open nomination process where ANY user of the forum is free to nominate someone they believe should be on the council, outlining the reasons why this would benefit the council. This gives a popular mandate of sorts with the council without the detracting factors inherit in a popular vote.

    It also strikes me that such a process need be only implemented once: I'm sure it would not be past a suitably qualified council to set up a working group on refining the selection process for their successors? When we have the apparatus set up, we'd be mad not to use it on as many of the little things as possible: that is after all, the point of the council. :p
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Nov 28, 2000
    [blockquote]I dunno, maybe there's a way to vote by way of competence and skill? [/blockquote]

    Is there any way to determine ability aside from one's standing amongst their peers and their superior? If there was a better way, then believe me, we'd immediately jump to that.

    Remember, folks, that the official members of this Council exist to guide and direct the RPF, they're not gaining some sort of exclusive power at the expense of others. Really, it's more of a volunteer job than anyone else.
  6. SkyeLightrider

    SkyeLightrider Jedi Knight star 6

    Jan 12, 2003
    Wouldn't that be even more so if it was a pure popular vote? Say person X got on the Council. Then for some inexplicable reason (yeah right), those in good social standing with person X either got on the Council as well, or the games they participate get more recognition or whatever.

    This is one of the main reasons I hate the RPF awards. The same select people always seem to win. Why? Social cliques. I used to research those who won "Best RPF user" for what made them win. It wasn't skill as an RPer, it was how many friends they had that voted.

    Well, we could limit the field a bit. I know it's exclusivism, but I'd rather have a pool of people who actually know what they are doing rather than any newbie who joins up.

    Say those who GM or co-GM the long standing games of the RPF. Or, each major game (I say major, not every, simply because again I would like experienced people) nominates within themselves someone from their game which is then thrown into a pool to be voted on.

    Much like the US government, you can in theory vote for anyone, but only a few people actually have a chance to be in government; those who at least show some qualities applicable to the job.
  7. NaboosPrincess

    NaboosPrincess Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 14, 2001
    With regards to limiting newbie participation in the Council, I think it's a terrible idea. We need to have at least a few members who are somewhat inexperienced, both to tell us, "Hey, this is what confuses me, maybe we should consider setting up a system to help others who might have the same questions," and to present a different perspective. Some of the best ideas I've heard over the years have been from people new to the forums.

    With regards to the RPF Awards, I don't really have anything to say except I'd love to know how you conducted your "research"...considering that all final votes are by PM and last time I checked, I was the only one with access to my PM box. Oh, and the first time we did it with a sock. But still, only two people with access to that. ;)
  8. SkyeLightrider

    SkyeLightrider Jedi Knight star 6

    Jan 12, 2003
    Some newbies on the Council I guess are needed. Still, too many newbs and there will be no structure, no order, and thus no progress.

    As for my research it was simple. After the winners were announced, I searched their recent posts for RPF posts, and I wasn't impressed. Like I said, my research was to see if their contributions warranted the award. INHO they weren't, and so the next logical conclusion is that their social standing was high enough to get the votes.

    No I didn't check to see who voted for whom. I can't hack your Modship's files :)
  9. NaboosPrincess

    NaboosPrincess Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 14, 2001
    You are entitled to your own opinion regarding the merits of our RPF Award winners, but, for as long as those conclusions are drawn from personal opinion rather than a concrete examination of facts and figures, kindly refrain from shouting it from the rooftops as if it were true. I hold these players in the highest regard and they absolutely do not deserve to have their titles ridiculed in public.

    As stated earlier, I would like to start the Council up ASAP so the members can begin working on the Adoptions and such. The floor will be open for comments on this subject for the next couple of days, at which point I'll probably lock this thread or modify the title. I've also been in consultation with our JC Head Admin and I'll be announcing a more concrete goal list and timetable soon.
  10. PulsarSkate

    PulsarSkate Ex-Mod star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Nov 4, 2003
    Perhaps instead of 'newbs' being pinpointed as the degradation point of a council (or infact RPs themselves), you mean younger players or those who are new to the realms of RPing within a set construct of rules and patterns? A date on your profile doesn't mean that you are lacking in organisational or RPing skills ;) But maybe i have misunderstood your use of the term. I mean no disrespect to the younger members of the forums, but age can count for maturity in some cases, especially within plotlines and character development (although age can also count for pomposity and a feeling of superiority over the 'kids' of the group, leading to Godmodding, so maybe I am too fond of seeing both sides of the arguement to truely make a decisive statement in this case :p)

    Perhaps that we could have two committees within a 'council' to deal with differing areas. I agree with her Moddessness that new players bring new ideas and new energy to the forum. I also agree with parts of Skye's arguement that sometimes people with less experience can bring an RP down, or can misunderstand the purpose of a forum. Perhaps a standard of participation levels could be used to determine someones commitment to the forum? Say maybe a month or two of solid playing along with a bit of socialising would count them as someone interested in the progression of the forum(s), therefore making them eligible for council work?

    But yes, the two committees within the one council. A group focussed on looking at new RPs, from the 'old gaurd' point of view - knowing what works etc etc. and a group made up of new players who would/should be able to provide insight on new ideas, fresh ways of looking at things and to remind us that the old way is not always the best way :)

    EDIT: *sigh* By habits of redundancy strike yet again. Ah well, I wanted to express my opinion so I guess I have
  11. DARTH-bojangles

    DARTH-bojangles Jedi Youngling star 3

    May 1, 2005
    First off, my compliments on the RPF Adoptions Program. It is proof positive of great ideas having a profound impact on the needing individual like myself. My thanks to Imperial_Hammer for really showing me the ropes of the RP Forums. It seems like only yesterday I was annoying him with questions like, "How do I create a signature?" and "What does the HRULE button do?" Thank the Maker he had the patience to endure the idiocy of a newbie. Also Ive seen myself grow as a more accomplished RPer thanks to his help and the overall implimentation of the RPF Adoptions Program.

    Secondly, this is one newbie who would like to see only the best and brightest on the Council of the RPF. Of course there's always the selfish desire to want to be where the 'action is' so to speak, but such feelings should be circumvented for the good of the Forums.

    And to play Devil's Advocate for just a moment, one could make an argument for the Moddess appointing 2-3 Newbies to the Council only if she invests her complete confidence in thier abilities and character which I'm sure she would. Again, the argument comes full circle to suggest it would promote greatly to the growth and maturity of the Newbies into someday being a great Oldbie. This coming from a Newbie who recieved great help in his efforts to better his RPing skills and friendships via this Forum.

    Which brings me to the comment that SkyeLightrider made concerning Social Divisions concerning the RPF awards.

    (Keep in mind this comes from but a humble Newbie who has the sense to show respect for his elders)

    The nominations for every RPF Award category are open for anyone reguardless of Forum Age or Social Standing which begs the question. If you feel there are discrepentcies in reguards to who wins the awards, then why not double your efforts into an RPG that no one can object to being of a high caliber thus gaining the nomination/award you desire? It's an open Forum and even a single nomination will get you to the runoff.

    Technically, isnt this just one giant social thread in itself? This is a group of 'friends' coming together to tell great stories from the Cannon of a shared interest.

    Also, I'd like to extend a welcome to for you to join any RPG's I'm involved in as a chance bring the young and old together for some good ol' RPing and make something the likes of which this board has yet to see.

    So in closing, I'd like to say that this Forum has brought me many moments of joy and commradery. Thank you to the 'Almighty Mods from on High', my RPF Master and Teacher, and all fellow RPers.

    Happy RPing~BOJANGLES:cool:
  12. Darth_Vaders_cousin

    Darth_Vaders_cousin Jedi Knight star 5

    Nov 12, 2004
    Say those who GM or co-GM the long standing games of the RPF

    What about us who practicaly live in this forum, but aren't GMing as of yet? I have brought this up when we first annouced the council, and I will say it again. This is a Player's Council, not a GM's Council.

    Skye, I belive you need to revise your reasearch, because in my opion, the winners deserved the awards. Call me biased, because a majority of the winners for the last few seasons have been from the 007 RPG series (which I am a part of), but lets not start a flame war because you haven't won the award.

    Infact, looking at it, don't you qualify as a GM or Co-GM of a long standing game?

    Now you are starting to sound not only elitist, but like your out for yourself.

    As to elections, I agree that it could turn into a popularity contest. Prehapps, Nominations could be PMed to Naboo, and she could weed out those she didn't feel were ready for the responsiblity?
  13. LadyZaraMarta

    LadyZaraMarta Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 21, 2004'll have to forgive me, but can it be stated exactly what the Council would do?

    1 Do I understand that they will help with the RPG awards?

    2 Will part of their responsibilties be a clearing house/advisary board?

    3 Anything else?


    Again perhaps a compromise can be worked out about membership to the council.

    2003 and older = 7 members - 2-3 appointed by NP. The remainder voted upon by RPG members who are 2003 & older.

    2004 = 5 members - 2 appointed by NP, the remainder being voted upon by the 'class' of 2004.

    2005 = 5 members - 2 appointed by NP, the remander being voted upon by the 'class' of 2005.

    Perhaps the members appointed by NP term could be 1 year in length. The others 6 months?

    Or members appointed by NP term = 2 years. The others 1 year.

    2006 members would become eligible to vote after one year.

    I would hesitate making terms longer, because people may grow tired of the responsibility or have other committments they may have to honor.

  14. milney

    milney Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 21, 2003
    Here's a run-down of what I think the council should have as duties:

    1. RPF Adoptions
    Given that the benefits of the program being run by the council far outweighing the concerns, this would be an excellent idea. The council could respond immediately to any issue that would arise with any Newbie/Oldbie pairing and could make changes to the adoptions list accordingly. They could also change the focus of the program to help refine the newer players skills. This is what the current program is trying to do, but it, unfortunately, isn't working out as hoped.

    2. RPF Awards
    This could be an excellent task for the council to oversee. All of the voting could be sent to an account that only one member of the council has access to for the voting period (for security's sake) and, if a dispute arised, the other council members could review the voting in an impartial manner. They could possibly introduce new awards (which may not have a VIP-ship attached, but could be rewarded with a curtom title or icon).

    3. Training Ground Updates
    This could be done as part of the Adoptions PRogram, or it could be seperate undertaking. Every two weeks (as an example) A council member could post the 'RPG Training Focus' of the fortnight. One post could focus on character design, anther could focus on rp structure. This could benefit the entire community and not jsut the newer players.

    In regards to how many users are on the council from each group, the numbers could be as follows (using 30 members as an example):
    8 members from 2005
    10 members from 2004
    12 members from 2003 and earlier.
    This kind of difference in numbers wouldn't neccesarily allow the older users to have the majority, but it would allow all users to have their say (remember that there are alot of RPF-ers who are older than 2003).

    The council elections could be both Mod chosen (say 2 or 3 users from each group) and community nominated/voted. There is no absolute way to garuntee that everyne will be happy with the final elected group, but it would allow for both user voted and mod chosen members to sit.

    Would the Chairman (or President, etc) be given a VIP-ship like the EUS chancellor? And the Vice-Chairman (vice-president) be given a title? (for the sake of identifying them)

    In relation to other suggestions:
    Unlimited Edit Time
    This could be extremely useful when you notice a few hours later that you made a typo, or that you contradicted what another player was writing (ie God Modding, or simply mssing part of a post).
    A seperate non-SW RPG forum
    Another idea that could be extremely useful. Even the older members do enjoy to odd bit of non-SW gaming, and seperating the rpg's could make it alot easier. The 'one non-sw rpg per theme' rule may have to be revised, but that's another issue.
    Flagship RPG
    Just like the other large scale RPG's, this idea seems very sound and could work superbly. It could be managed by multiple GM's (to ease the workload) just like tha multiple thread RPG's are (ie IPOB)
  15. SkyeLightrider

    SkyeLightrider Jedi Knight star 6

    Jan 12, 2003
    No I'm not out for myself. Yes I have been in the past miffed about the RPF awards, but not anymore. I will admit that, but I am not out for myself. I am out for the best of the RPF. I don't even want to be on the Council and probably would turn down the position if offered; I have too much to worry about with one game, let alone the RPF.

    Maybe I am one of those who holds resentment towards the newer player. Newer not being just registration date, but age, maturity, and RP skill. It probably comes from being a GM as you stated. I am the one who has to deal with the problems of my game, which usually involve a newer player doing something wrong. Or Bravo, who has RPed for years, he just gets under my skin :p For anyone who knows our game, you know what I'm talking about. ;)

    I will admit, I do sound elitist, and it's probably unfair. Again though I am just throwing out my opinions. NP I did say it was an opinion regarding my research, and if anyone was offended I do apologize. However, I come from a long-standing tradition that status is not just given, it is earned. Call me old-fashioned I suppose.

    All I am saying is that in my opinion the position of Council or GM or anything like that that provides authority must be earned. As for the criteria of earning that distinction... I don't know what criteria to follow. As to your last point of the Modship weeding out nominations that are unsuitable, that is a good idea. :)

    I guess I just fear that the Council will cause more harm than good.
  16. NaboosPrincess

    NaboosPrincess Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 14, 2001
    I have posted twice what the Council will ideally be in charge of. I am not going to post this again. :p

    The council would be in charge of managing the Adoptions System, modifying/running the RPF Awards, and dealing with inter-thread issues or animosity, similar to the EU Senate. Once we have a council, they can work on forming committees to deal with these different things, or however they want to handle it.

    The council will not be in charge of (but may possibly offer input/advice on) forum rules and regulations, non-Star Wars games, and certain specific user issues like bans, etc. I feel it is best to keep these areas under moderator control, especially with such a large council.

    I very much like the idea of an open nominations thread from which to select the candidates and I'm leaning towards this approach at the moment.

    Regarding your suggestions, LZM, let's not get more complicated than we need to. I think a term of six months is more than fair for all involved. We can have a nomination thread once every six months. I thought at first that the Council should select a leader from among themselves, but I worry this might waste some time and create divisions within the community, so it might be wiser to appoint a Chair. However, I'd like to stress that at this point in time, I don't think the Chair will be getting any sort of official recognition or VIPship. The Chair will merely be appointed to make sure discussion stays orderly and on-track. That's it. I've looked to the EUS to form some models for the Council, but it's not (and should not) be the same thing. I think it best to minimize any and all divisions within the Council, and VIPship can lead to some issues.
  17. Kartanym

    Kartanym Jedi Knight star 6

    May 23, 2002
    A quick thought. Perhaps, with nominations of council members, Miss NP herself could choose a number of players she believes will be of great importance. From there, all players then vote on this selected group.

    Oh, and Skye, don't you go knocking on my brother bravo :p
  18. Darth_Vaders_cousin

    Darth_Vaders_cousin Jedi Knight star 5

    Nov 12, 2004
    The problem with that is NP isn't in all of our RPG's, and she doesn't really see everything (though It seems like it sometimes :p) While we do see alot. We know who we think would do good in the council, and, based on our nominations and reasons, NP can fairly weed out the "I nominate X, because he/she was really nice to me and is a kinda ok player...He is super awswome and cool!"

    This way I think is the best way. We nominate, Naboo chooses a bunch from them, we vote. Seems fair to me.

    Now, as to a Chair. The last thing we need is VIPship (at this point) for our Chair. This is about bettering the forum, not about popularity, and anyone who is going to treat it like a popularity contest can leave now.

    I do think we need a chair...but, for the first and maybe second term, I think Naboo should chair for us.

  19. LadyZaraMarta

    LadyZaraMarta Jedi Master star 5

    Aug 21, 2004
    What you have said sounds fair, NP.
  20. Kartanym

    Kartanym Jedi Knight star 6

    May 23, 2002
    Agreed. Technically NP is already chair, so it makes sense ;)
  21. DarthFacetious

    DarthFacetious Jedi Knight star 6

    Apr 3, 2004
    Just my two cents:

    I believe half the council should be made up of the most experienced RPers, whether they be GMs or not. The second half should be made up of Noobs. My reasoning?

    1) The experienced are able to give their wisdom - kinda speaks for itself...:p

    2) Noobs come in with a unique viewpoint. Because they're new, they may catch the problems or inconsistancies that the experienced players miss. That kind of collaboration can only do us all good...
  22. NaboosPrincess

    NaboosPrincess Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    May 14, 2001
    Bah, I thought the point of all this was to make you guys do some of the work so I could sit back and relax, and now you want to make me chair the infernal thing? :p

    In all seriousness, though, I'd be happy to serve as Chair for the first term to kick things off if that'll help.
  23. Darth_Vaders_cousin

    Darth_Vaders_cousin Jedi Knight star 5

    Nov 12, 2004
    I think it would help greatly...and I for one would be HONORED to serve on a council (if elected) under our Supreme Moddess :p

    Did some one leave a vacuum on, or is that just me making a loud sucking sound?? :p
  24. PoKeMoN_Master_Drake

    PoKeMoN_Master_Drake Jedi Master star 3

    Sep 18, 2001
    I'm hearing it, too :)
  25. Darth_Vaders_cousin

    Darth_Vaders_cousin Jedi Knight star 5

    Nov 12, 2004

    Ok, enough messing around, back to buisness (But I was serious about beign honored to serve under you NP...)

    I have another much long has IBOP got?
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