Free Choice or Fate-which idea guides the Saga?

GL uses a lot of philosopies in the Saga. To me, there is always a question whether a character cannot change his fate or whether the choices the character makes impacts the result? In another words, will of the force vs. an individual making their own destiny and changing their fate. Just a couple examples:

1. Luke choosing to stay on with Uncle Ben until fate intervenes with stormtroopers killing Uncle Ben.

2. Obviously, Anakin fulfilling the predestined prophesy or was its Luke's intervention that gave him the choice.

Maybe it is a combination of the two. Any thoughts?

 

Free Choice or Fate-which idea guides the Saga?

I like to think both. You're given multiple paths, each has a certain fate. It's your choice to decide which one you want.

 

I agree, I think it's both. Anakin does end up fulfilling his destiny, but only because he chooses to save his son from palpatine

 

Yeah Lucas once said that his idea was that Anakin had a destiny, but he had to choose to fulfill it. But logically, quite a number of things would have to occur as a result of fate so Anakin could have an opportunity to fulfill his destiny. I don't know if he had to go through the Vader phase as a part of that fate - frankly, I'm glad he did as a Star Wars/Vader fan - but maybe techinically speaking, he might have been able to destroy the Sith from the outside rather than the inside...or maybe not. Maybe that was the point? Destroying something he didn't fully understand might not have allowed for the 'balance' that the Force was seeking. That goes back to that theory of 23 years as a Sith understanding evil and 23 years as a Jedi/Civillian understanding good. But either way, I have always gone with the idea that Anakin had a destiny and had to choose to fulfill it.

For Luke it would be the same. He had a destiny, part of which was to redeem his dad - and despite everyone and their brother telling him not to do it, he did it anyway. So he made a choice as well. Then he would go on choosing to fulfill the rest of his destiny which was rejuvenating the New Jedi Order among other things.

 

"You mean it controls your actions?"

"Partly, but it also obeys your command."

I think this answer the question. The Force guided some events, but I don't think it removed the free-choice element. If it can control and be controlled, then outcomes can be likewise effected.

 

good quote, your right, that sums it up quite nicely.

 

I seem to recalla pre-ROTS interview in which GL says that Luke and Anakin are given many of the same options but Luke makes the right choices where Anakin makes the wrong choices.

 

Free Choice life gives you paths you are the one who guides your destiny.

 

Free will and divine will are intertwined in the story, but Anakin is different because his very existance is divine will.
So couldn't it be that his turn to Darth Vader was also divine will?

 

Maybe, or maybe the events of the OT are a correction, because Anakin inserted free will instead of following destiny?

 

Anakin made the choice to fulfill his destiny.

 

How about Padme's death?

Anakin foresaw it.
He swore to prevent it.
Then he caused it himself.

Fate and free choice inter-twined.

 

Maybe it was never Anakin who did anything wrong but was always, even as Darth Vader, following his destiny.
To me Anakin never had a choice. The choice was always up to everyone but Anakin.
Maybe if the people around Anakin would have been more caring to one another then he wouldn't have become what he became.
Lucas clearly shows rampant apathy in the PT. Other than the compassion shown by the people of Naboo in "TPM" there is no compassion in the PT.

 

The reading that "Anakin has no choice" is incorrect. There could be no moral instruction in these films if choice is removed. At every opportunity, Anakin is presented with the option to act according to selfish desires or for the common good, and he chooses the former. Luke, when presented with the same options, more often than not selects the common good over his own worldly wants. Denying the element of choice in Anakin's misdeeds -- from slaughtering Tuskens to slicing off Windu's hand and beyond -- misses the real-world relevance of the Saga and the moral guidance it offers.

 

I tend to agree with Vort. The two problems with saying Anakin had no free choice is it removes the value of any choice he made, good or bad, making the film morally weaker. In addition, the message would also be (should Anakin not had any free choice) that evil isn't really evil (because then his deeds as Vader would have been a deliberate action of the Force for a greater "good").

I could go with the idea that he could not escape his destiny, but the road he followed to the ultimate conclusion, I think he did have a choice on that.

 

This reply is directed at you both: Stryphe and Vort:

I would totally agree with you both if I was viewing the saga without the big picture in mind.

There is little I can say to either of you that will help you appreciate what I'm saying. You're either going to see that it was people of galaxy who created Darth Vader or you're not.

What you guys believe to be the truth of the saga is just what's on the surface of the story. It's the truth I would believe if I only believed in what Lucas openingly says about the saga.

So since I really don't feel like a circular debate: Have a nice day.

 

Anakin is responsible for his own actions and choices. Like everyone.

 

I gotta agree with Vortigern99 as well. Lack of free will means lack of guilt. If it was all his destiny, and he had no control over it, then concepts such as good and evil are completely irrelevant, as are the Light and Dark sides of the Force. If we are slaves to our destiny, than there would be absolutely no need to differentiate between them. If your destiny makes you do exactly what you do, and you can't avoid it, there is no point to actively trying to avoid the Dark side. Whether you turn or not isn't your choice, so if you have no control over it, whats the point in remaining vigilant against one choice over the other?

It was Anakin that slaughtered the Sandpeople, it was Anakin that beheaded Dooku, it was Anakin that betrayed Mace Windu. It was Anakin that kneeled before the feet of Darth Sidious, it was Anakin that was responsible for the massacre at the Jedi Temple, it was Anakin that choked Padme. It was also Anakin that threw Darth Sidious down the shaft in the DSII. Destiny is like a car trip. Destiny might tell you where you will end up, but how you get there is entirely up to you.

 

You're either going to see that it was people of galaxy who created Darth Vader or you're not.

Maybe that is GL message. If its his message, then its the message of the Saga and since I didn't write it I cannot change it. But I have always got the impression (not just from watching SW, but also from GL interviews) that he is going for a strong moral message. Saying that someone is a product of their envirnment and is uncapiable of overcoming it doesn't fit with other themes in SW. The entire OT shows how the underdog can overcome impossible circumstances and come out on top (rebels vs. Empire and Ewoks vs. a high tech army), and how people can make conscious choices to change for the better (Han, Lando and IMO Anakin). If GL is saying Anakin was a product of a corrupt or flawed environment and never could hope for anything better than to be Darth Vader then he underplays his theme of overcoming the odds and change for the better.

 

In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not. - George Lucas

 

That is merely a blanket statement about destiny within the story of Star Wars.
How do you know Anakin wasn't following his destiny?
If you're going to use Lucas quotes to validate your position about Anakin then the quote you need to present to me is one where Lucas says Anakin was not following his destiny when he turned into Darth Vader.

 

It's an interesting question. I've wondered about it for real life. I think people are born with certain tendencies, and if life goes a certain way, and they have certain experiences, how can a person not be guided in a particular direction?
As far as Anakin, he felt alone, and then his mother is torured to death. That's followed up with a vision of his wife dying. Of course the big complication for him was that he wasn't supposed to be married, so he couldn't go to Obi-Wan and to tell him the truth of his visions.

 

I'm saying that quote means that destiny is not irrevocable.

 

I am curious, where did that quote come from and what is the context of the interview?

 

Lucas is going for a strong moral message. What you seem to be doing Stryphe is laying all the blame on Anakin but what did he do that the Jedi were not doing already?

Sure Anakin was guilty of killing children but weren't the Jedi part of a process that stripped cloned children of their free will and forced them to kill? Is there really a difference? The cloned children will never have a rich and fulfilling life just like those Jedi children will never have a rich and fulfilling life. By showing the clones kill the Jedi the audience is being shown the slaves turning on their masters. Then the clones go on to enslave the entire galaxy. That, as I'm sure you know, is an allegory. The people of the galaxy brought all the darkness upon themselves and it is in that very darkness that they will find what they have lost: Their compassion for one another and the OT is all about finding that compassion. That is, in my opinion, the primary allegory of the saga. You ever watch "Starman", Stryphe? There is this line from that movie that nicely sums up what's going on in Star Wars: "Shall I tell you what I find beautiful about you? You are at your very best when things are worst." But see Lucas is all about the visuals and he doesn't make Star Wars movies with a bunch of talking heads so that's why you won't hear anything like that in Star Wars because you're supposed to see it.

Star Wars is so incredibly rich with allegory that there are actually allegories within allegories. The Jedi are not the moral compass of the story. The audience is. Star Wars is what we are. The Jedi are just average Joes who talk a bunch of smack just like most of us do. They don't know the meaning of life. All they know how to do is just move stuff around telekinetically and read other people's thought. They don't know if the Force is divine or not. How could they? And that's another allegory. Like I said the overall meaning of the saga is that sometimes people get lost and sometimes tough love is the only thing that will help them find their way back to the light. Darth Vader is that tough love and Darth Vader was created by the people's apathy and fear. The people created Darth Vader but it didn't have to be that way. Anakin's original purpose was to show the Jedi the way of the Jedi. The way which they had lost over the years. The Jedi were supposed to get off their asses and help the people of Tatooine. Anakin's purpose was to show the Jedi that taking children from their parents to build their Jedi Order is counterproductive. Anakin was just supposed to be a son to his mother but the Jedi wouldn't allow that. Anakin was just supposed to be a family man with Padme, his mother, and his children but on occasion he was supposed to put on his cape and help oppressed peoples everywhere because that's all he really wanted; however, the Jedi wouldn't allow that either even though that's what they should have wanted and been doing themselves instead of what they were doing, which was hanging around an ivory tower doing nothing but talking smack. I