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Free Choice or Fate-which idea guides the Saga?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by SaberSlash, Apr 19, 2008.

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  1. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    Immolated One, I call BS. What Cloned children? The Clones on Kamino that weren't fully developed yet? Or the full grown adult Clones, who were created SPECIFICALLY to be soldiers in a completely manufactured war, and to wipe out the Jedi? Your comparison of Clones to slaves is utterly ridiculous. The Jedi were not slavemasters, they were Generals in a conflict, created by the same person that created the Clones. They didn't create the Clones as servants. Palpatine had them created to die in his fake war, and to kill his enemies, the Jedi. You are either just not getting it, or you are deliberately twisting it to match your completely off base worldview, trying to provoke reactions. You are, quite simply, WRONG.
     
  2. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2001
    Lucas is going for a strong moral message. What you seem to be doing Stryphe is laying all the blame on Anakin but what did he do that the Jedi were not doing already?

    Hadn't had time to read your whole reply yet, but I just wanted to clarify an important point. I don't hold the Jedi as blameless. The Jedi did plenty wrong, in fact, I would call the Jedi (at that time) spof (steaming pile of failure: s.p.o.f.). The Jedi sure didn't do much to help the situation, although based on previous debates you and I have had, I don't think I disapprove of the Jedi for the same reasons you do. Nonetheless, they have their part to play in the failure, and so does Anakin. I only see him as responsible for the actions he took. Likewise I see Palpatine as responsible for the actions he took, Yoda the actions he took, Obi-wan, etc... And some times there is overlap. For example, Anakin's responsible for the murder of Jedi children, so is Palpatine -- he ordered it, after all, but Anakin could still have said no.
     
  3. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 24, 2006
    And I'm the one trying to provoke reaction?





     
  4. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 24, 2001
    Yeah, Darth_Davi, I agree with I_M_O about your tone. Ease up, man. This is a debate, not a mortal conflict.
     
  5. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    immolated_one, I agree with much of what you've written in your post, below, about the Jedi's failings. But that the Jedi are in error doesn't change the fact that Anakin, too, made choices that were wrong/erroneous/morally incorrect -- choices that he could have avoided but chose not to. The two ideas -- that the Jedi fail by theiur own choices and that Anakin fails by his own choices -- are not mutually exclusive.


     
  6. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 24, 2006
    Vort,

    In my opinion, Anakin was only following his destiny when he lopped off Mace's hand and until Lucas says that Anakin was not following his destiny then I'm going to keep on thinking that way.

    You keep on reminding me that Anakin had the ability to make the correct choice, but where does Lucas say that cutting off Mace's hand was not part of some cosmic design for the people's own good? Where does Lucas say that if Anakin would have allowed Mace to kill Palpatine that all the wrongs would have been righted?

    Look if the other characters didn't have mommies and daddies or Lama Su then I could go along with your comparing Anakin to the other characters but Lucas clearly threw in a curve ball with the mysterious conception. To me Lucas is saying Anakin is a divine conception so he's not the same as the others.

     
  7. Pyrogenic

    Pyrogenic Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 17, 2006
    Fate. The destinies of everyone and everything are etched into film.
     
  8. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    immolated_one, I can agree with you that Anakin has been conceived by Divine will. That is not the point of contention here. I am comparing Anakin not only to "other characrers" in this fictional universe, but also -- and more importantly -- to us, the audience. Once we remove the element of free will, of choice, from the story, it loses its real-world relevance, and therefore its power to morally instruct the audience.

    If all Anakin ever does -- if all he ever can do -- is mechanically follow along a pre-arranged course of events and actions, a destiny carved in stone, so to speak, irrespective of his own decision-making abilities, then he is no longer like us in the real world, and his story can have no resonance in a symbolic/metaphorical/mythopoeic sense. Since we all have free will here -- since we can act or not act according to our own choices -- separating out Anakin from this universal human experience is to extinguish his relevance as the protagonist of a sweeping morality tale.
     
  9. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    We know Anakin has free will. Lucas and others have felt compelled to point that out.

    And he may have been conceived by the will of Darth Plagueis rather than by "divine" will.
     
  10. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 24, 2006
    I mean no offense, Vort, but that's just your opinion. Where is it written that a story automatically becomes unworthy if the central figure is not truly guided by his own free will but instead being guided by the will of greater comic entity as well as the the will of the mortals around him? Besides the story is not about Anakin. The story is about the people of Naboo uniting and dying to fend off tyranny. The story is about the slaves on Tatooine, the criminals on Tatooine, the natives of Tatooine, the babies on Kamino, the Jedi in their ivory tower, the Jedi in their simple hutts. The story is about a once apathetic society that followed a madman because they were mad as well: All of the aforementioned examples of the story is where the relevance lies to us, the audience, because we are the ones who have been and are capable of being that apathetic society. I do not identify with Anakin because I am not of a divine conception, I identify with all the other characters because they're the ones who truly have free will and they're the ones who must do what is right even if it requires dying for what is righteous.

    Anakin's destiny was not carved in stone like it appears to me that you think I'm saying.
    "I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back and freed all the slaves."
    That was his destiny in the beginning but it was never allowed because it wasn't up to him. It was up the Jedi and people of the galaxy because they're the ones being tested by a higher power not Anakin.

    Lucas calls it the tragety of Darth Vader because Anakin's life was a tragety because of the people's sins.


     
  11. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 24, 2006
    I'm not here to debate the Sith conception. If that's what you want to believe then go with it.

    You sure about that? The others you speak of really have no bearing on what Star Wars means. I mean you're an other and I'm an other but we're not George Lucas so their and our opinion about Star Wars is irrelevant in regards to what the story means to George Lucas. And I mean no disrespect but please show me the quote where Lucas says Anakin was going against his destiny when he became Darth Vader. See if you just show me a Lucas quote that states that in unambiguous language, I'll concede and be on my merry.
     
  12. YYZ-2112

    YYZ-2112 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 3, 2004
    If there was never a choice then there was never a conflict. There has to be freewill for there to be a drama. The fact that Anakin fell to the darkside reveals that choice was an absolute factor in the saga. Ultimately it's the choice to do what is right that gives the heroes glory. The characters forged their own destinies.
     
  13. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 24, 2006


    Of course Anakin was conflicted and that's why he cries, and that's why his son tells him he can feel the conflict within him, but again I ask where does Lucas say that it wasn't Anakin's destiny to become Darth Vader?

    Anakin's fall was not an absolute factor in the saga. If it wasn't Anakin at Palpatine's side it would have been Dooku. It was better for the people of the galaxy that it was Anakin at Palpatine's side. The absolute factor was the choice of the people. The absolute factor was the choice of the Jedi.

    Almost every character in the PT was going against their destiny but Anakin, Padme and the people of Naboo.

    Destiny is not a word you throw around lightly. It's a word that carries much weight. Destiny is intertwined with something greater than yourself. You can call it whatever name you want, like god or whatever, and if you don't believe in something greater than yourself then you don't believe in destiny, but in Star Wars there is something greater than these characters that is guiding them. And like the man says the characters have the free will to follow their destiny or not.

     
  14. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    immolated_one, your theory that the Saga is about the "people of Naboo", the "slaves of Tatooine" and the "babies on Kamino" is supported neither by the screenplays, the individual films created from those scripts, interviews/commentary with Lucas, nor indeed by any traditional form of literary or cinematic analysis of which I am aware. It seems invented and a product of your mind alone. I have never read nor heard anyone, including Lucas, discuss the movies as though they were about anything other than the journey of Anakin and Luke Skywalker. (Indeed, I recall an interview from several years ago in which Lucas discusses the need to depict Anakin's choices as being instrumental in his downfall, but I have hesitated to mention it since I don't know where that article is, or even what magazine it appeared in.) Since our modes of interpretation are so wildly different, I will no longer engage in this discussion with you. MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU.
     
  15. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Where is your proof that Anakin has no free will? How could that be the case?

    By what mechanism would his birthright of free will be somehow rendered inoperable?
     
  16. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 24, 2006


    Anakin did make the choice to lop off Mace's hand. But why did he make that choice? What drove him to make that choice? A vision? Like I said Lucas just recycled all the old story devices from mythology to make his own mythological story. One of those story devices is the vision/dream handed down by the god(s).

    What I'm not understanding about your logic is that the people of Naboo, babies on Kamino, and Tatooine slaves are right there on the screen but you're saying the movie isn't about them so why are they in the movie in the first place, Vort? Lucas didn't have to plaster images of human babies sucking their thumbs all across the frame to move the story, so why did he do that? Lucas didn't have to make slaves out of Anakin and the other characters, on Tatooine, to move the story along so why did he do that? In fact it would have made the story mesh better if Lucas would have had Obi-Wan and Anakin as twenty-something year old farmers in "Episode I". Lucas didn't have to have 2 races of Nubian people, who don't get along, come together to fight tyranny to move the story along so why did he do that if the story is not about them especially when that's what the overall message of "TPM" is? Another thing I don't understand is what makes you so certain that you understand Star Wars especially when Lucas runs around saying that most people don't get it:

    Lucas himself seems split on the subject of whether or not his Star Wars movies are great. He has called them "popcorn pictures" and told Biskind that he merely "understood what people liked to go see." Further, in talking up his planned return to experiment film, he strikes the tone of a man ready to do penance for years spent in the wild. But in a more defiant mood later on during our interview, he sounds convinced that what he has put up on screen isn't merely kid stuff, and suggests that it should be classified as enduring popular art. In the same breath that has him mentioning Michellangelo and Leonardo da Vinci as pop artists of their day, he says, "The interesting thing about Star Wars--and I didn't ever really push this very far, because it's not really that important--but there's a lot going on there that most people haven't come to grips with yet. But when they do, they will find it's a much more intricately made clock than most people would imagine." It certainly isn't that far-fetched to think that people will still be grappling with even the least-well-received film in the serious, which is probably The Phantom Menace, long after something more obviously tasteful and character-driven, such as Anthony Minghella's The English Patient, is forgotten.--Vanity Fair

    So why haven't most people come to grips with it? If you're running around saying the same things he is then haven't you come to grips with it? Most people I talk to, here at tf.n and starwars.com, all say the same thing about Star Wars and it sounds just like the same stuff Lucas has said about Star Wars during the years even before that interview which was published in Febru
     
  17. the_immolated_one

    the_immolated_one Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Sep 24, 2006
    But see that's the difference between you and I. I acknowledge my interpretation as just that: An interpretation.
    But you somehow think you know the truth. I have no proof in the form of a Lucas quote that Anakin was only following his destiny when he became Darth Vader and that prevents me from seeing my interpretation as factual; however, you lack the same evidence to back up your interpretation but that doesn't stop you from seeing your interpretation as factual.

    Whether or not Anakin has free will is truly irrelevent in the context of what I'm saying. The only thing that is important is whether or not Anakin was following his destiny when he cut off Mace's hand. You're simply saying Anakin had the free will not to cut off Mace's hand and not become Darth Vader. I'm just simply saying it doesn't matter if Anakin was capable of choosing or not. All I'm really saying is that after the Jedi and people continuously failed to take the moral high ground, it became Anakin's destiny to be Darth Vader. See, he's really not making the wrong choice by becoming Darth Vader if becoming Darth Vader was part of a greater cosmic plan for the mortals of the story.
     
  18. SaberSlash

    SaberSlash Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Apr 14, 2008
    Some tense discussions here. When I started this thread I was interested in hearing how other members viewed the Saga.

    GL borrows from all kinds literary sources to tell the Saga, even a bit of Shakespeare when you talk about free will vs. fate. Anakin was told very early on, that he was the chosen one (You can imply that he was aware of that when Obiwan stood above him at the Lava River). Did the events in Anakin?s life occur because of the prophesy or because of the choices he made being aware of is prophesy? Or a little of both? That was the purpose of my post.

    The Saga goes back and forth in my mind on the the free will v. fate issue.

    * Yoda chose to fight Palpatine but decided after his fall from the Senate pod that it was not his fate to beat Palpatine (more clear in the ROTS novel).

    * Luke had the same issue. He chose to take Obiwan to get a transport but chose to go back to his Uncle's farm. Fate intervened, however, his Aunt and Uncle were killed, and Luke then chose to follow Obiwan because there was nothing left for him.

    * In Ep. 4, when Obiwan says to Luke, the Force will be with you, as he is leaving Luke in the control center, does Obiwan know that his fate is sealed and he is not leaving the Death Star alive?

    There many other examples through the Saga. Yes, you can make the choices, "but you cannot escape your destiny", and Obiwan once said to Luke on Dagabah.


     
  19. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    Destiny is the destination of a journey. The path taken to get there is completely up to you. Free Will. Anakin can both fulfill his destiny by eliminating the Sith, and he can make a lot of wrong choices along the way at the same time. He can arrive at his destination eventually, after getting lost many times on the path. Removing Free Will from the equation means that there is only one way events could ever have transpired. That is a clear contradiction to Yoda telling Luke that "impossible to see, the future is". If Destiny meant complete slavery to its will, without the ability of individuals to make their own choices, Yoda would have simply told Luke that the future was set in stone. Even if you accept that Anakin HAD to eventually kill the Sith, and fulfill the prophecy, that doesn't eliminate Free Will at all.
     
  20. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    Agree with Darth_Davi, I do. =D=
     
  21. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    :confused: Sounds like it does to me. If Anakin HAS to eventually kill the Sith and fulfill the prophecy, then he lacks the free will to not do so.
     
  22. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    but the path he takes to get to that point is still his choice. The end result might be predestined, but the journey to get there is completely up to Anakin. I live in Michigan. Lets say I have to be in California, for a wedding, by next week Saturday. So, I have a week to get there, give or take. Destiny is me, being there, at the wedding, a week from now. Free Will is me choosing the route I take to get there. Do I want to go this way through the midwest, or do I want to go that way? Do I try to drive as long as I can each day to get there faster, or do I pace myself? Do I get a hotel overnight, or do I pull into a rest area, and try to sleep in my car to save some bucks? Or, even more basic...do I drive my car, or do I get a plane ticket and fly? The only thing that matters is that I am there, at a specific time, in a week. How I get there and what I do in the meantime is completely up to me.

     
  23. Vortigern99

    Vortigern99 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 12, 2000
    ^ ^ And along the way, do you kill innocent people, or do you treat them with kindness and compassion? You can either end up in California a cold-blooded murderer or a hero to hundreds.
     
  24. Darth_Davi

    Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 29, 2005
    exactly...I still got there, but there is a difference between getting there, and getting there as a fugitive of the law...Some pathways are much more difficult than others...
     
  25. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    The existence of free will means that there was the possibility of not getting there at all.
     
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