Toronto Freedonia's gone to war

Discussion in 'Canada Discussion Boards' started by TragicLad, Mar 18, 2003.

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  1. TragicLad Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    star 4
    Some random thoughts as the war machine churns away to the south...


    Of the 535 members of Congress, only one has a child enlisted in the armed forces. Easy to make decisions of life and death when it's someone else's life and death you're dealing with - isn't it?[link=http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/15/column.shields.opinion.war.zone/]*[/link]

    Over 100,000 body bags are at the ready for the war on Iraq.[link=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12624416&method=full&siteid=50143]*[/link]

    How do you deal with a country suspected of harbouring chemical weapons? Use your own chemical weapons against their civilians.[link=http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=383006]*[/link]

    Today, thirty thousand people, throughout the world, died of starvation. Tomorrow another thirty thousand will die. Another thirty the day after that.[link=http://www.unicef.org]*[/link] Unicef has a number of emergency relief programs underway to stem the tide of child mortality, but of the $500 million they need, only $75 million has been recieved.[link=http://www.unicef.org/newsline/2003/03pr16crises.htm]*[/link]

    The US has earmarked over $360,000,000,000 to it's millitary for this year. I don't believe this takes into consideration the estimated $70 billion for waging war against Iraq.

    Canada wisely stays out of the conflict. The Liberals have a moral backbone - who'd of thunk it? [link=http://truthout.org/docs_03/031903D.shtml]*[/link]

    On an unrelated note - anyone remember Enron?[link=http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2002-01-29]*[/link]

    Might makes Right! Might for Right! Might for Might! Right for Might! Fight! Fight! Fight!
  2. Jymm_Roquand Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2002
    star 4
    Since not long after the war in Afghanistan broke out I have been quite angry about the hostility in the world, most notably that which has been rising in the southern nation. But until now I have pretty much kept my mouth shut. I will continue to do so, only because I think my efforts will be in vain, since no matter how much i protest or shout, there is nothing I can really do to stop this war.

    For the first time ever I have agreed with the Liberal government. I am often openly opposed to it, but now I find myself proud to be lead by some sensible Canadians who won't bow to the American muscle in this world. I am sick and tired of seeing my government roll over every time the Americans desire to attack someone. I don't think they are right, but they are not my nation. I said I would be quiet about the war and I will be but I am Very glad that Canada finally has said NO to the Americans.

    Today I am proud to be Canadian, more then ever!
  3. TragicLad Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    star 4
    I was staying pretty silent about it myself, but have come to the conclusion that silence equals collusion. I have no pull with our government let alone the Americans. I have no power to stop the impending hostilities. I'm just a lone voice on a Star Wars message board. But at the very least I can step forward and say, "[link=http://ericblumrich.com/antiwar2.html]Not in my name![/link]"

    --
    warning - link leads to presentation with brutally truthful imagery - these are the scenes the evening news will not show
    (Sweety - please do not follow the link)

  4. Jymm_Roquand Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2002
    star 4
    Excellent little clip show. But like he said, it is not for the faint of heart. I only looked because there is little that pahses me anymore.
  5. Cristalia Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2000
    star 3
    There's going to be protests outside the U.S. Embassy (360 University Ave., between Dundas and Queen); in fact they've already started. There's also a large protest and march planned for Saturday at 1:00pm.

    See you there.

    ~L
  6. Wolf Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2002
    star 4
    All i can say is hopefully they can get rid of Saddam fast and end this war as soon as possible.

    I do however believe that the US is doing what is right and what was needed. I also believe that the UN needs some major reforms before it can successfully deal with problems in the world.
  7. Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2000
    star 6
    American imerialism rears its ugly head once again.

    Goody. [face_plain]
  8. Wolf Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2002
    star 4
    What you concider Imperialism Chris i concider the fight for freedom and justice.
  9. CrazyMike JC Collecting Manager and RSA Canada

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2000
    star 7
    I wish that it did not have to come to another war but now that there is they have to wipe out Saddam and his group.
  10. DARTH2-D2 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2002
    star 4
    Has anyone heard if the decap strike last night got him or not at this point. Im with mike, dont want war but now its begun, get saddam and get it over fast.
  11. Jymm_Roquand Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2002
    star 4
    The AMerican Propaganda Train is in full swing. WOW!

    I don't want to get offensive, I am just stating My OPINION. Please don't bite my head off.

    FIRST I see no real threat. THe people of Iraq have made no open delcaration against the Americans. Perhaps they harbour terrorists, but so do the americans. The IRA comes to mind. The US has also given weapons to many people in the Middle East with whom they now fight. Perhaps the Iraq people own weapons of mass destruction, but so do we Canadians. We bought several new subs a year or two ago and that wasn't taken as any hostile act. The real threat is the overblown patriotism. Patriotism is fine until you see everything as a threat and begin attacking others you think might be a threat.

    SECOND Freedom is something that you can not threaten. Yes you may take away rights and legislated freedom, but that is not true freedom. True freedom resides in those that chose to live their lives how they want. Yes we may have more oppurtunities to do so. But I far more respect the person in a land where "Freedom" is taken away and continues to live his or her life how he or she wishes without fearing death. Sadam Hussien has never once said he wants to come over to the United States and take away your legislated freedom. Even if he did its not freedom he threatens. What would be threatened is the comfort certain laws provide. You can live free anywhere. So please don't tell me freedom is being threatened.

    THIRD What justice is being protected by going into a country that has made no attack against the US recently and bombing it? Last time I checked thats called being a bully.

    Again this is my OPINION.

    *Waits for it*
  12. Darth_Haggis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 4
    The following is along similar lines to Jymm_Roquand post:
    The British Isles - Regional Discussion Boards have an interesting satirical thread called [link=http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=10978012]WARMONGER EXPLAINS WAR TO PEACENIK[/link] which can be very enlightening. (If nothing else, it is humourous! :) )

    I resent the way that the US thinks they have the right to march into a sovereign country, and oust the current government (which was technically elected by the public). If any country decided that they didn't like Bush running America, and decided to remove him from office, then the US would be outraged...!

    The best way of saving civilian lives, is by not going to war in the first place.

    (Please remember that this is only an opinion...)
  13. Darth_Digital Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    Anyone remember the good old days where an invasion was complimented with a promise that this would be their "last" territorial concession?

    Like that made it all better?

  14. Jymm_Roquand Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2002
    star 4
    Is it just meor did the United States not begin out of protest of an imperialist nation controlign their economy, the legislation and their political landscape? Then they broke away to form their own "Empire' which is now doing similar acts to Iraq and other nations. Hipocrasy at its best.
  15. Darth_Digital Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    Its difficult to take a side on this.

    The United States is unarguably the leading world power. China and Korea are pretty much the runner ups.

    Saddam has pretty much maneuvered himself into roughly fourth place. His armies alone outnumber Canada's by a landslide.

    Historically, Saddam has tried to take over his neighbours, neighbours that have some relation to the States and their allies.

    But to look further back into history, you can't deny the consequences of some distant power invading their neighbours while North America stood idly by, with each territorial concession going unchallenged.

    Saddam has been proven to be a butcher, a thug- A war criminal if you will. He's murdered countless people, both within and without, and now as his strength grows, the leading peace keeping force is trying to cut the head of the snake so to speak.

    You have to respect the desire of our people to maintain the peace. To shed blood over the petty resources of our world is going to bring about nothing but our own destruction.

    However on the other side of the coin, if NATO, the security council, ect ect. sit back and do nothing, and this war criminal continues to attack with armies and immoral arsenals- (possibly including nuclear weapons - and I don't care what inspectors claim, they COULD have nukes boys and girls) -then Saddam's power grows.

    Hitler was not as unique as historians like to believe. Absolute power corrupts ANYONE, and if the States do nothing, then a time could come where that annoying little sand flea could transform into a very deadly scorpion.

    Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

    911: The 21st centuries "Pearl Harbor?"

  16. Jymm_Roquand Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2002
    star 4
    The difference between Sadam and Hitler is that Husein has been in power for a number of years. If he had the same intentions as Hitler surely he would have tried by now to conquer more then his neighbours. I don't think that this situation is quite the same.

    Meanwhile we have the Bush family taking power in less time then it took Hitler, having a military far more powerful then the Nazi's could have dreamed of, now invading territories all over the world, systematically wiping out anyone who poses even the slightest threat to their power, keeping a financial control over the world, and bullying everyone into submission.

    And I am supposed to beleive that Sadam Husein is the threat? Esspecially since the United States Supplies more weapons for the world, then any one else...often giving them to people to support their own cause only to have those same weapons now be used against them.

    As for the threat of terrorism, the US has repeatedly supported the IRA and other terrorist groups who help to pad their wallet, yet make an outirhgt attack against those that threaten freedom and liberty with terrorism.

    Again Hipocrasy at its best.
  17. Darth_Haggis Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2002
    star 4
    I agree. There is something fundamentally wrong with the logic circuits of the US...
  18. Wolf Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2002
    star 4
    The difference between Sadam and Hitler is that Husein has been in power for a number of years. If he had the same intentions as Hitler surely he would have tried by now to conquer more then his neighbours. I don't think that this situation is quite the same.

    It is called lots of sanctions and you don't think he tried? Saddam takes power in 1979. 1980 he attacks Iran throwing away a peace treaty he had with Iran. War lasted until 1988. Only two years later 1990 Saddam invades Kuwait. Only to be stoped by the UN and the sanctions that were put on Saddam. EVEN THEN! he attacks his own people in the North and the Kurds are only saved from complete destruction because of outside forces!. Now you don't think that if given the oppertunity and the weapons he would attack again?



    And I am supposed to beleive that Saddam Husein is the threat? Esspecially since the United States Supplies more weapons for the world, then any one else...often giving them to people to support their own cause only to have those same weapons now be used against them.

    First of all North Korea is the number one weapon suppliers to the world. Second yes you are sopposed to believe that Saddam is a threat. How does only the US know for certain that Iraq has WMD? THEY GAVE THE WEAPONS TO THEM!! No one has ever said that you can't make a mistake but the US certainly did provide the Iraqis weapons for the Iran war.

    As for the threat of terrorism, the US has repeatedly supported the IRA and other terrorist groups who help to pad their wallet, yet make an outirhgt attack against those that threaten freedom and liberty with terrorism.

    While i'll agree that no direct link has been found between Iraq and terrorist groups one fact shows me that they do indeed support them. In Isreal every Palestinian who blows himself up, has his family recieve $15,000. From who you ask? Well one guess Mr. Saddam Hussein.

    Could dipolmacy have still worked you ask? I don't think so. If Saddam really wanted to disarm he would have did it 10 years ago. Or even the past few months when the weapon inspectors were brought back in. What i want to know is why do the inspectors have to go looking in Iraq for these weapons? Shouldn't Iraq have just given them to us right at the start and destroyed them if they really wanted to disarm? A few token bits of cooperation just don't cut it, I'm sorry.

    Sigh, i'm tired now so i think i'll end my rant.

    Again Hipocrasy at its best.
    Hipocrasy? I call it getting off our asses and doing what needs to be done.
  19. Jymm_Roquand Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2002
    star 4
    It is called lots of sanctions and you don't think he tried? Saddam takes power in1979. 1980 he attacks Iran throwing away a peace treaty he had with Iran. War lasted until 1988. Only two years later 1990 Saddam invades Kuwait. Only to be stoped by the UN and the sanctions that were put on Saddam. EVEN THEN! he attacks his own people in the North and the Kurds are only saved from complete destruction because of outside forces!. Now you don't think that if given the oppertunity and the weapons he would attack again?

    That was 13 years ago. Since then he has sat quietly, sanctions or no sanctions (if he wanted to he could have broke them). Even then it was not any of the United States bussiness, who he was conquering. History is riddled with people conquering other people. The United States doesn't care about conquering factions else where until it threatens their resources. And you can not deny the fact that Bush Jr. having power might have something to do with the war that his daddy started. Its a family vendetta, and not something anyone else need sot be a part of.

    Second yes you are sopposed to believe that Saddam is a threat.

    Again I see no reason why he is a threat. Because he owns weapons means nothing. Again the Canadian Military just purchased several Nuclear subs capable of doing mass destruction but are not perceived as a threat. Britian too owns many weapons. So only those who speak out against the United States or have a history of being their enemies have to destroy their weapons? Here is an idea. If the US is so concerned with peace, how about every weapon one of their enemies destroys the Americans also destroy one.

    While i'll agree that no direct link has been found between Iraq and terrorist groups one fact shows me that they do indeed support them. In Isreal every Palestinian who blows himself up, has his family recieve $15,000. From who you ask? Well one guess Mr. Saddam Hussein.

    As a capitalist regime the US should be open to the thought of free spending of a rich man's money. But only when that money is of no harm to them?

    Could dipolmacy have still worked you ask? I don't think so. If Saddam really wanted to disarm he would have did it 10 years ago. Or even the past few months when the weapon inspectors were brought back in. What i want to know is why do the inspectors have to go looking in Iraq for these weapons? Shouldn't Iraq have just given them to us right at the start and destroyed them if they really wanted to disarm? A few token bits of cooperation just don't cut it, I'm sorry.

    Why is it up to everyone else to disarm when the US has more firepower then most countries combined? It is not diplomacy to go into someone else's soveirgn land and demand they give up their weapons. This coming from a country that keeps its outdated laws about the right to bear arms. And because the Iraqi governement is reluctant to destroy its weapons that gives the US the right to kill people?? Peace comes not from diplomacy but at the end of a barrel according to the US.

    Hipocrasy? I call it getting off our asses and doing what needs to be done.

    What gives you or anyone else the right to go over to somewhere else make demands of their government, and control their people. Last time I checked thats is what is called conquering. But I guess the normal rules which aplly to everyone else are imune in the US, or as long as the rules benefit them.

    I see no justice, no right being done here. If peace is the inniative we need to eliminate ALL weapons, not jsut the big ones or the ones within the nations you don't get along with.
  20. Darth_Digital Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    Sire Yuri;

    "-That we would destroy our arms. To prove that we are willing to live in peace."

    Commander Adama;

    "Destroy our only means of defense?"

    Yuri;

    "Or attack. May I remind my brothers that we did not initiate a conflict with the Cylons until we interfered with their relations with other nations."

    Adama;

    "Yes, your right. We did not initiate a conflict with the Cylons until we helped our neighbours, who the Cylons wish to enslave. And until we helped the Hasaris get back their nation, taken by force by the Cylons.

    Yuri;

    "Correct. If we mind our own business, theres every indication that the Cylons will leave us alone..."

    Sorry, I was watching Battlestar Galactica this afternoon while eating lunch. Got a ironic laugh, thought I'd share...

    ;)
  21. Wolf Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2002
    star 4

    That was 13 years ago. Since then he has sat quietly, sanctions or no sanctions (if he wanted to he could have broke them). Even then it was not any of the United States bussiness, who he was conquering. History is riddled with people conquering other people. The United States doesn't care about conquering factions else where until it threatens their resources. And you can not deny the fact that Bush Jr. having power might have something to do with the war that his daddy started. Its a family vendetta, and not something anyone else need sot be a part of.

    Did you just read what you said? not any of the United States Bussness, who he was conquering If Hitler in WW2 keep conquring all of Europe but didn't touch the US did the US have the right to interfear? HELL YES! Just because a country being conqured does not affect the US does not mean it is right. It is dead wrong to do nothing. The UN was put into place to stop injustice. If you ask me the UN has failed in its job as it should have taken Saddam out of power after the first Gulf War. And just so you know, Iraq HAS broken UN resolutions calling for them to disarm and allow weapon inspectors to do their jobs for 13 years!


    Again I see no reason why he is a threat. Because he owns weapons means nothing. Again the Canadian Military just purchased several Nuclear subs capable of doing mass destruction but are not perceived as a threat. Britian too owns many weapons. So only those who speak out against the United States or have a history of being their enemies have to destroy their weapons? Here is an idea. If the US is so concerned with peace, how about every weapon one of their enemies destroys the Americans also destroy one.

    In an ideal world maybe all weapons will one day be destroyed. But your argument really lacks all common sense. Why isn't Canadian and British weapons seen as a threat? Well here is a reason! Neither are agressive and have the tendincy to attack other countries with chemical, biological and other weapons. Saddam does! And no, everyone who speaks out against the US is not required to destroy their weapons. Do you want a list of countries who disagree's with US policy? and has spoken out against them? Russia, China, Germany, France Almost EVERY Arab state. These countries have proven that they can be trusted with the weapons. And please, don't try to bring up any examples of the British attacking the Spanish Armada or anything so far into the past like that. Times have changed and the current situations of the countries have to be taken into account.

    As a capitalist regime the US should be open to the thought of free spending of a rich man's money. But only when that money is of no harm to them?

    Sorry did you just say that? I don't think you can honestly say that supplying money to people who blow themselves up is a good thing and something a civilized country does.


    Why is it up to everyone else to disarm when the US has more firepower then most countries combined? It is not diplomacy to go into someone else's soveirgn land and demand they give up their weapons. This coming from a country that keeps its outdated laws about the right to bear arms. And because the Iraqi governement is reluctant to destroy its weapons that gives the US the right to kill people?? Peace comes not from diplomacy but at the end of a barrel according to the US.

    Again it is not required that everyone disarms, just an insane leader who has a past of using chemical weapons on both his own people and other countries(Kuwait, Iran). And yes it is not diplomacy to go into someone elses land and Free its people. It is the result of Iraq who has constantly disregarded diplomacy. When diplomacy fails which it has in this case action is sometimes required.


    What gives you or anyone else the right to go over to somewhere else make demands of their government, and control their people. Last time I checked thats is what is called conquering. But I guess the normal rules which aplly to eve
  22. Darth_Digital Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    Captain Kirk;

    "Gentlemen, gentlemen-"

    Spock;

    "Really Dr. McCoy; You must learn to govern your passions. They will be your undoing. Logic suggests-"

    Dr. McCoy;

    "Logic!? My dear lord, the mans talking about logic! We're talking about universal armegedon! You green blooded inhuman-"

    Spock;

    *Arches eyebrows*

    :p
  23. The_Lady_THX Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2003
    star 2
    "Damned if we do, damned if we don't"

    Its true. That whole clip show was showing us what we *The americans, not us* have done to Iraq, but what of the reason this has started?

    Granted its taken a year and a half, and the only reason hes going after Saddam is because Osama can't be found *dead already?*

    But what about our lives? What happens if he leaves it be? What happens then?

    If Bush does not finish what his coward of a father did not finish years ago will our children be looking at the same sight we had to endure as two planes crashed into the World Trade Center?

    I agree there is no need for war, there is no need to kill more of our people, nor the people of Iraq, but what happens if we leave it and have peace?

    Honestly people, what have we to gain if Bush backs down? Bush being seen as a coward and more attacks on the United States? And honesly what is to stop them from hitting us?

    Princess Milo
  24. Jymm_Roquand Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2002
    star 4
    For the last time please stop comparing Sadam Husein to Hitler. They are no where near the same. The conflicts are completely different. If they weren't I would be on the front line already.

    Now I have had WAY to much of this damned war and am going to leave this arguemtn alone since it is getting silly and redundant. YOu have completely missed my point and I fear that my arguemtn is falling on deaf ears. Besides I have a big weekend ahead of me, and don't want it marred by the stupidity of one American leader is his pathetic band of "yes" men, who are more of a threat to peace, freedom and liberty then anyone else in the world.

    P.S. I lost all respect for the most prominent members of parliament today for attacking the Prime Minister in his most intellegent descision ever.
  25. Darth_Digital Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 4
    I'm surprised you can't apprecaite the historical similarities towards these two madmen.

    Bottom line they have both amassed a formidable fighting force and went forth, hell bent on taking neighourbouring territorties and ignored a united nations request to stand down or face a military reprisal.

    And like the 20th century mirror to Hitler and the Axis, Saddam has sneaked more and more consideration in the interests of not wanting any trouble until leading world powers couldn't take it anymore.

    Just my 0.02 cents anyway.
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