fresh eyes

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Darth_Sacrilicious, Jan 29, 2004.

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  1. Darth_Sacrilicious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2003
    star 2
    i watched AOTC today, and at the end when obi-wan is talking to mace it seems to set up that palpatine being siddious is going to be a BIG plot point. nothing surprising there, but it made me wonder about how future generations will be shocked, perhaps, by that.
    I wondered if anyone out there wished that they were seeing the movies chronologically instead of knowing how it turns out. specifically for this turning point.
  2. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    nope, 4-3 is the ideal to see the two triologies.
  3. merlin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 1999
    star 4
    [color=663300]I still think that Lucas has a big surprise in store for us. But yeh, OT and then PT is the way to really enjoy the Saga. [/color]
  4. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I agree with Ghost and Merlin that the OT to the PT is the best way to go.

    However, there are many, many people out there who think that George is (perhaps forsaking his current fans?) doing the PT for the "next generation", so they can watch from TPM to ROTJ in numerical order.

    Thus, the big "surprise" for the PT would be that Sidious=Palpatine. I don't buy it, you don't buy it, but that's because we are of the generation that already KNOWS Sidious=Palp.

    Even if that's the way it turns out (and I am a supporter of the 'PalpsIsNotSid' theory ;)), it will still be sweet to see Sidious reveal himself to the Jedi.
  5. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    1-6 will be the best order, but until Ep3 is released...I'd say see the OT before the PT.
    After that, I'll watch the Saga in the order it was meant to be.
  6. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I'm glad we're seeing it in this order. To me, the surprise isn't Palpatine, it's Vader... seeing how he goes from innocent to hero to scourge of the Galaxy. You know in advance that he does, but the great mystery is why and how. Dramatic irony can be a very powerful tool. It isn't a big mystery that Palpatine=Sidious, anyone who knows anything about the common mythology GL was writing from could figure that out easily. Kids, maybe not. Maybe it'll be a surprise to some that Anakin falls and becomes evil if watched in order. But I personally like to know the depths of his evil first and then go back to find out why.
  7. KaaShamau Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    star 4
    Nobody else reminded of Temple of Doom reading this topic?


    mmm...fresh eyes...
  8. New_Order Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2001
    star 2
    Yes, but note this:

    If a fresh generation was to watch it in numerical order, here are the surprises they are in store for: Palpy is Siddy, Anakin goes naughty, the Empire takes over.

    But they lose one of the biggest and most talked about twists ever:



    VADER: "...Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father."

    LUKE: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him!"

    VADER: "No. I am your father."


    :_|
  9. stinrab Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 5
    Palpy is Siddy

    Not a surprise. Do we not remember Qui-Gon's funeral in TPM?

    YODA: Always two there are, no more, no less, a Master and an Apprentice.

    MACE: But which was destroyed, the Master or the Apprentice?

    //camera pans and focuses on Palpatine

    Dead give-away to any viewers with half a brain. Therefore, Palpy = Siddy = not a surprise. :p

    Plus it's mentioned on the backcover of the VHS.

    Anakin goes naughty, the Empire takes over.

    Both are mentioned on the back of the VHS as well. Not a surprise.




    That being said, I'd still prefer to show someone the saga in order from Ep1-Ep6; if only because, the OT is better and you get to save it for last (therefore helping to lessen any negative impact of the PT for the new viewer ;)).
  10. obi_wan_kanathan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 4
    But would people make that connection if they hadn't already known that Palpatine was Sidious? Considering that no one knows that Palpatine is a force user, if you got anything out of that scene, it could simply be that Palpatine is being controled by Sidious, like many other politicians.

    I believe that if watched in order, you realize that Palpatine isn't a nice character by AOTC, but you think that he's just another politician trying to manipulate Anakin. It's not until Ep III that you realize who he really is.
  11. jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 14, 2002
    star 8
    I think that people who watch the films in order for the first time will be surprised by the fact that Palpatine = Sidious.
  12. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I still doubt that people won't make the connection. stinrab is right, there is a huge hint in TPM at Qui-Gon's funeral. Their voices are similar, Sidious' face looks similiar under the hood. I don't think you're giving people enough credit. I know some people still don't believe it- but that's for different reasons- clones and the like. But the Palpsidious foreshadowing is not really that subtle. And it makes sense- that's how these type of stories are done. Maybe I'm looking at it too intellectually for most, but in the life of the Tragic Hero there is always someone else pulling the strings. Macbeth has Lady Macbeth, Othello has Iago. Neither is a surprise and neither Tragic Hero realizes the extent of their villainy. We do however, and that's dramatic irony, a really powerful device.

    I did have a moment in TPM where I realized all over again that Palpatine was Sidious (this was pre-SW fixation ;)) and I thought, wow cool... but it was no grand surprise that I didn't figure out until way late in the PT.

    I still believe the real surprise is Anakin's fall. But even that is not so much a surprise as it is an event you fear in that back corner of your mind may actually happen but that you hope and pray that it won't. It's more anticipation and dread which turns into shock in the very end.
  13. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    But they lose one of the biggest and most talked about twists ever: ... the Vader twist.

    But to be frank I think most people know that already, even if they've never see SW.

    It's been spoiled by the world.



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  14. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    True enough, Adam - but the scene can hopefully be effective in another way when SW is watched from TPM-ROTJ.

    Why?

    When ESB came out, Vader was this monster - we didn't really get to see how bad the Emperor was until ROTJ, and Vader seemed like the Big Bad Guy in the GFFA.

    And he was ranked as one of the all-time great villains.

    So when this villain tells our hero that he didn't kill his father, he IS his father, it's pretty stunning.

    But now, having an understanding of Anakin and his fall, and the fact that his offer is genuine - he wants his son to join him so he can supplant Palps and they can "rule the galaxy as father and son" - makes it an emotional moment for perhaps a different reason.

    And I agree on the Palps/Sidious thing: the pan to Palpatine at the end of TPM is SO obvious.

    There's been other times in the PT that Lucas has been so obviously ironic that it makes me wonder...if he's got something up his sleeve.

    I can see Lucas pulling the wool over our eyes - having these statements by Palpatine, making us think "ha ha, that's so ironic, we know what you're saying George", and then in Episode III suddenly he reveals the double irony that Palps is not Sidious (at least, not directly), and that Palpatine actually meant what he said.

    That's not going to happen, but it could happen.
  15. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    But now, having an understanding of Anakin and his fall, and the fact that his offer is genuine - he wants his son to join him so he can supplant Palps and they can "rule the galaxy as father and son" - makes it an emotional moment for perhaps a different reason.

    Exactly. The surprise may be gone for us, but it's still powerful.

    But it couldn't be a surprise if you watch the movies in order anyway. In episode III we see the twins, we know exactly who their parents are already. Anakin may believe they (or the one) died and that's where his surprise comes in later on. The new tension comes from us wondering if Luke will ever find out the truth.
  16. sharkboy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2004
    star 2
    The new movies have a lot of scope and for me I think the major surprise is getting to know Ani the young Vader there is a lot going on in the backround but it is really his story just as the OT is Lukes.
    I think the reason a lot of people did not like TPM was because they could not feel that this kid was really Vader.
    I think thats the point at that time he was not. ATOC done a great job ten years later and so much had changed but we still felt this was the same person however the idea that this person could be Vader no longer seemed silly.
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