Discussion in 'Literature' started by bsmith7174, Apr 6, 2017.
So your position is that you can have gay characters in Star Wars if they're "well developed" or "serve a story purpose" . . . but casually mentioning them is somehow a liberal agenda run amok? Minorities can be main characters, but not background characters?
That's a very weird standard. Like when one of the Rebel pilots in ROTJ was black, or when a side character in a novel was described as having dark skin, I didn't say "Lando was ok because he was a main character who moved the plot along, but this one extra/background character being black is a gratuitous, arbitrary check box designed to make you say 'look, a black guy! '"
Honestly, I'm just really, really tired of having this conversation. These guys aren't fooling anyone anymore with this "literary merit" nonsense, and I think it should stop being treated as such.
I haven't mentioned anything about the liberal agenda or pushed any particular standards for including gay characters. Those are your words, phrases, and assumptions that you and Todd are using to fit some preconceived notion in your very, very narrow minds.
When you read the story you see that Ackmena's sexuality was a box check. Shallow. Meaningless. And clearly meant to appeal to people whose definition of diversity is limited to bean counting and skin color. I've merely juxtaposed how Traviss handled gay characters--fleshing out Medrit and Goran far beyond just names and a sexual orientation. Traviss gave them professions, a backstory, and a purpose to drive LotF forward. In other words, her controversial positions aside, she knows how to tell a story.
But then again, shallow and meaningless is what one expects from Wendig.
Once again, the Lemmings Strike Back on these Boards.
You're not having a conversation. You're just being a judgmental ass toward people.
I fail to see how not caring what someone's sexual orientation is makes me narrow-minded. But okay, fine, go ahead and keep throwing out labels at everyone and everything. Just know we have rules about respecting other members here, so try to adhere to those as you go along. Notice no one's ever actually called you a bigot.
Here’s the question that needs to be asked every time a statement is made about an LGBTQ character, whether it’s about “pushing an agenda” or “serving no purpose” or anything else:
Can (general) you honestly say you would make the same criticism about a straight character?
Were Han and Leia, or Luke and Mara, “pushing a heterosexual agenda”?
No? Then (general) your standards are different for heterosexual characters and LGBTQ characters and therefore, you are going about this “criticism” thing all wrong.
As a follow up to that, let me just say this and then I'm leaving this thread because the groupthink continues to ascribe the worst motivations to people who don't virtue signal properly.
The Internet allows people to act tough and say things they wouldn't normally say to others because it's remote and anonymous. We all know this. And TF.N is a privately run website that has the right to proscribe standards anyway it wants.
But I've watched these Boards for years before I finally created an account this past spring and it's breathtaking how uniform the thought processes are here and how flippantly people attack others and suggest bigotry or racism or "wrongthink" toward other people for merely saying "I personally didn't like how this was done" or "I found that to be gratuitous and annoying."
I realize that there are actual bigots and racists that get brave over Internet forums and say outlandish things and there's cause to not let people like that proliferate on a privately-run website. You see it all day long on social media, too.
But perhaps some of you should take some time to actually reflect on your own biases and realize that not every comment is an attack on the liberal agenda or has some heinous motivation behind it. I know a lot of good people who are political liberals, political conservatives, moderates, independents, you name it. We're all people. We all have lives and jobs and dreams and we all LOVE Star Wars. Or else we wouldn't be here.
Attacking DaRonin was wrong. Suggesting he's a bigot for thinking Ackmena was handled poorly and that her sexual orientation reveal was shallow is also wrong. There's no proof he's a bigot. Bluntly speaking, you're just behaving like bullies.
This behavior pushes people away and creates an atmosphere of mindless groupthink that doesn't serve any productive purpose.
I love reading AdmiralNick's starship geekiness. Or reading Jello's hilarious back and forth about the merits of the Galactic Empire over the First Order. There's a lot of real depth there. But the nastiness with which people here lash out at others at times is toxic and offputting and discouraging. And more importantly, it's just not acting like a decent person. It's being an ass for no other reason than to reinforce the approval of the Board's groupthink.
Be better people. Take comments at face value.
You can't read people's minds. You don't know their hearts. Quit acting like you can and just respect others for being big enough fans to opine with their views. Even if they don't line up with yours.
I mean, people have disagreements all the time across the boards. Usually both sides understand why the other doesn't see things their way, but you seem to refuse to accept why people are reacting to you the way they are. You preach open-mindedness, and yet when people offer legitimate counter-arguments to you you clam up and ramp up the offense. There's certain things that can be taken black and white and certain things that can have some nuance, but I'm afraid this is one of the former instances.
Okay, even if you are totally cool with gay people, you're still continually nitpicking over a single line; I get that this is the place were we super nerds can go all out, but if you're so hung up on such a tiny detail, it might be time to reassess your perspective on things.
To be blunt, people don't care about what you think as much as you'd like; at the end of the day we'll all go our separate ways more or less unchanged from our interactions here. There'll be plenty of people who like the things you don't and vice versa. Instead of flat out calling stuff trash or whatever, maybe think about the others who do enjoy it, and stop making things all about your opinion.
Cool, let's get back on topic then. The Diversity Thread exists for these types of disagreements, people, let's take it there Counter et. al
I'm only going to address this point because it drives home the sincerity of my previous posts.
I'm actually not nitpicking over a single line. I mentioned myriad other critiques I had with this book when asked. The only reason I'm focused on this Ackmena point is because you and others honed in on that like a laser when DaRonin mentioned it as something he didn't like and then immediately many ascribed heinous motivations to him for daring to say such a thing.
I'm focused on that single line only because I happened to agree with his assessment that it was a shallow box-checking exercise and felt compelled to defend him from the bullying mob mentality that infects these Boards and candidly drives people away from interacting here.
As a personal note, I have several friends who routinely lurk here, but never post because like me, they've watched for years how toxic this community can be when someone says something that doesn't compute with the Board's groupthink.
And more than a little sad.
You say people don't care what I think, but that's clearly not true. And in the case of DaRonin, it's just patently false.
To add to what my two fellow moderators have said, if you're advising taking the high ground and being better -- the best way to take the high ground is to be better. Saying that someone was being mistreated and attacked unfairly and then proceeding to attack everyone else with guns blazing is not the way to do that.
So as we get back to topic, I expect better, civil disagreements -- especially when the conversation is about how to have civil disagreements.
All I can say it that I absolutely love this book! Only had it for 24 hours, but I already think it might be one of my favorite SW books.
Raymus, The Bucket, Reiren, and The Red One were all fantastic.
Still, I'm only a quarter of the way through; hope it stays this good.
I liked Duty Roster alot because it helped me reshape my picture of what the hell happened at Yavin (and because Jason Fry wrote the characters superbly). I could read and reread it often without complaint. If they ever do this again for ESB and ROTJ, give him the Hoth and Endor battle sequences.
what's he (she?) called now?
right on! great response mia.
anyway, for what it's worth, i thought ackmena having a wife was cool. i buy it, and wuher's story was one of my favorite from the book, actually.
Yea, Wuher's story is great. Awesome details about Chalmun's Cantina and it's patrons and employees.
So when is the ESB collection coming out?
If there is one Willrow Hood (Ice Cream Maker Guy) has to be in it.
Honestly, I'd love it if they did one of these for EVERY Episode. Though that may be a pipe dream.
I won't be around in 2055 to read A Force Awakens - From A Certain Point of View. I hope you all enjoy it.
Sent from my Ornithopter using The Force
I feel the Story Group's overriding logic is that they change what they need to, in order to accommodate the needs of the film program as they arise; but they don't see the need to reinvent the wheel if they don't have to. It makes little difference to the story needs of future projects if, for instance, Imperial Officer #2's name was Praji or Pendleton, the logic goes; so they figure they might as well go with Praji...
EDIT: Wow, I was about to apologize for accidentally double-posting - but then I saw all this orientation-politics bullsheev launched by reactionary not-fans and decided I'm really NOT sorry. I'd prefer to repeat myself than repeat THAT...
We already said to drop it, so drop it.
Me neither, unless I manage to break the century mark..