From a Certain Point of View - Obi-Wan Discussion Thread - Evil Obi Challenge!

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by Kestella, Feb 5, 2006.

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  1. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    That was a wonderful essay. Very insightful and I love the way she tied up the books with the movies.

    At the bottom of that essay was a link to another essay on the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan which was quite an eye opener. Made a lot of sense on how differing expectations can lead to a bad end.

    brothers and sons
  2. Healer_Leona Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2000
    star 9
    Wwo, that is a most insightful essay on Obi-Wan and Anakin. Really does shed a great deal on the hows and whys, at least to an understandable point.
  3. Persephone_Kore Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 19, 2006
    star 4
    I remember reading that essay... heck, I remember the survey, though even being an elder sibling I'm not sure if I actually answered it (*is shy, but watches/fangirls her livejournal*). I read it for the first time and went something along the lines of ah! so that's it.

    (Fernwithy was JediGaladriel on here, right?)

    I notice she does bring up the relationship between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, too, if only in passing... I rather like the description of Obi-Wan as an adult child in no hurry to move out -- it seems to convey the idea very well that he is, as he and Qui-Gon both say to the Council, ready for the Trials and ready to be Knighted, but that he's currently still comfortable being partnered with and learning from Qui-Gon. Even with the occasional attendant frustrations. *g*
  4. Healer_Leona Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2000
    star 9
    Just to cheat a bit, the JCC is having a hotties war between Obi-Wan & Anakin, here in case on Obi fans want to vote. ;) ;)
  5. Pyxelle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2005
    star 1
    ACK!!! Craziness! So much has happened since I've been away!

    Um...hi? Okay, I've got some catching up to do. And two half-written old Obi-challenges to post.

    And now more bunnies to fight off...

    Anyways, hi again all, and hope things have all been running well for the Obi-fans of TF.N! I've had the plague (well, pnemonia/bronchitus, close enough) and was quarantined on Hoth the past weeks...yeah. Quarantined on Hoth, that was it.

    Okay, I lie. But only about the Hoth bit.

    Anyways, glad to be back, hope to be back in the swing of things soon!

    Pyxelle
  6. Kestrel_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2005
    star 4
    Pyxelle! Welcome back...I hope you're feeling better now...and obi challenge stories are always welcome just let me know when you post them.

    On a much sadder note my uncle passed away earlier today so I'm not going to be round much for a while.

    As stella is swamped with school/exams I've asked obi_webb to help out with the thread.
    A big thank you to him for agreeing [:D] .
  7. Nienna_Narmolanya Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2005
    star 4
    What an awesome essay! I really liked the part that talked about the symbolism in TPM duel. I must admit, I never looked that deeply into the scene. To me, it was only an action sequence. Not anymore. Also, I haven't read Rogue Planet so it was interesting to see some of that information for the first time. :)

    A hotties war between Obi and Anakin... What is a girl to do? :p

    I'm glad you're back and feeling better, Pyxelle! My mom gets bronchitus sometimes and it's nasty business. [face_worried] I'm excited because school is out and I finally have time for my Obi clone again. He's whispering plot bunnies in my ear... [face_batting] But first I must finish my current project.

    Kes! [:D] :( [:D]

    Thank you obi_webb for stepping in to help. :D I'm sure I'm speaking for everyone when I say: we appreciate it.

    Whew! I think that's everything. ;)
  8. Luna_Nightshade Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2006
    star 5
    Fantastic reading there. My English major tendencies were getting the best of me, and I busted out a notebook to take notes. Yes, I did. Not too proud to admit it. [face_blush] I took notes and drew pictures to interconnect ideas and FINALLY came up with the idea I had been searching for with one of my fics, as well as the beginnings of the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan fic I've been dying to write. Thank you to those people who put it up! [:D] Much love. T'was very helpful. Now to hide those notes so nobody knows of my true nerdiness...

    And Kestrel_Kenobi--[:D] I'm so sorry. I have learned that there are no good words to say, so I'll just [:D] you, and if I knew you in RL I'd be bringing over a pan of lasagna tonight.

    Welcome back, Pyxelle. That's a bad combo--pneumonia and bronchitis. I had pneumonia once when I was twelve, and I can still remember how bad that was. I'm glad you're feeling better--it does take a long time, but now you have lots of good things to read while you're getting back to tip top shape!

    And howdy, obi_webb. Thanks much. We're really quite polite here, so we shouldn't give you trouble. ;)
  9. obi_webb Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2005
    star 4
    howdy all! (i want a wave hello face!) as kes mentioned i'll be filling in for stella while she is busy with darth schoolwork and it's evil comapanion that usually travels with it, darth studying!

    thanks all, for the welcome!:cool:
  10. Nienna_Narmolanya Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2005
    star 4
    Ahhh! Darth Studying!!! :eek: *faints dead away*

    :p Pardon my moment of silliness. Summer vacation must be getting to me. 8-}

    Anyway. Back to Obi-Wan... [face_whistling]
  11. honour Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2003
    star 3
    Hello, all:)

    This is my first time posting in a long while in the new Obi thread; I haven't posted in these forums in months, but I have to today just to rant about Watson's The Last One Standing to get rid of the foul taste of it :D

    For the life of me, I don't know why she bothers to write Obi-Wan at all since her preoccupation seems to be Jinn. It could be argued, from ROTS - indeed, both sagas - that Yoda is as important a figure in Obi-Wan's life as Jinn, but one would never know it from reading Watson.

    -According to Watson, Obi-Wan wasn't audacious until Anakin. Really? He seemed pretty darn audacious to me in TPM o_O
    -According to Watson, after all we see Obi-Wan survive and endure in ROTS, he's ready to give into anger in his first encounter with Tuskens until he remembers Jinn :rolleyes: Yeah, right, Jude.
    -According to Watson, he hates sand like Anakin[face_sick]:rolleyes:

    I have no problem believing the guy would be in a bit of a dark place, but the Obi-Wan she conjures has no resemblance to the Obi-Wan I saw walking into the desert at the end of ROTS. Once again, she insults a beloved character by turning him into some needy, insecure child who has none of the strength of character I saw in the PT or the OT. A big ICK from this reader to Ms. Watson's latest offering.
  12. Nienna_Narmolanya Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2005
    star 4
    Hello, honour! It's good to see you back! :D

    I didn't even know Watson wrote a new book (just goes to show how well I keep up with the EU). [face_whistling] But from what you say, I don't want any part of it. I have a few comments based solely on what you said... (I couldn't help ranting a little bit myself.) ;)

    -According to Watson, after all we see Obi-Wan survive and endure in ROTS, he's ready to give into anger in his first encounter with Tuskens until he remembers Jinn

    Like you, I just don't see Obi-Wan giving into anger so quickly. Sure, in the JA books (if you take those for canon) he had some temper management problems, but those stemmed mostly from acute frustration and the very real possiblity of losing his dream of becoming a Jedi. Once he was chosen by Qui-Gon, he learned to control his anger. During TPM duel, I think he may have felt some anger after Maul stabbed Qui-Gon (I take this from the aggressive strike he made along with the look on his face), but it's obvious that by the time he killed Maul the only thing he felt was the Force. From then on, he had years and years to grow and mature until he probably wouldn't experience even a flash of anger no matter what the circumstances. I certainly didn't see any at the end of RotS - more like guilt and resignation.

    -According to Watson, he hates sand like Anakin

    Oh my... :rolleyes:
  13. iLoveAnakin7 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 5
    Hi honour! I like your Watson post.

    I need to bring one up myself.

    Also according to Watson:

    Obi-Wan was so head over heels in love with Siri...a woman mind you that we never see in the movies that he almost went darkside for her. (Via Secrets of the Jedi)

    I have qualms about this. Obi-Wan as far as we know, only loved two people in canon. Qui-Gon and Anakin. These are the only two instances in which he loses himself and his composure. Even for these two though, he never touched the dark side. I don't believe he did when fighting Maul at all. So why on Earth of in the GFFA...would he almost break down over some chick we never even see on screen.

    I'm sorry. I don't hate Siri, not at all. She's a fine character. I just thought that was crappola.
  14. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    What Obi-Wan did you all see? [face_thinking] Because in the movies, he gave into anger quite a bit. I'm not saying he wasn't justified in doing so but he sure did.

    TPM
    Council scene - he looked darn upset when Qui-Gon said he'd take Anakin.
    Fighting Maul - the face of rage after Qui-Gon was stabbed and the way he jumped into the fray. That was not a tea party where everyone was polite - he went in slashing and stabbing. Gorgeous fight, btw. Plus in the novel of TPM, they made a point of his fury.

    AOTC
    Yelled at Anakin during the Dooku chase scene when Padme fell off the transport.
    The look of rage when he cut off the legs and stabbed that crab-thing

    ROTS
    Yelling at Anakin/Vader while he was burning
    In the novel, he yelled at Yoda, saying that they should have killed him (Obi-Wan) on Naboo before he ever brought Anakin to the Temple.

    There are lots of other little things in the PT movies and novelizations of the movies.

    I admit that his anger was less as he grew older but I think you discount that he was also a human being. It's not that Jedi can't have emotions but that they must learn to control them. He was still learning even up through ROTS.

    A perfect Jedi he was not. Just a great one.

  15. Nienna_Narmolanya Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2005
    star 4
    Good thoughts, both of you. :)

    iLoveAnakin7 - Yes, I don't see Obi-Wan falling that hard for anyone either, which is why I don't pay much attention to anything Siri-Wan. It's not like I hate it; I just ignore it mostly. ;)

    Dianethx - Just another comment to add to yours: I think it's important to note that his anger was different from Anakin's, or at least the Anakin of RotS. By the time Anakin became Vader, his anger had turned to hatred and he was using it to fuel his dark side powers. Obi-Wan's outbursts (like the ones you mentioned) mostly stemmed from intense grief. He was not really mad at Yoda; he was more angry at himself. And I think the same can be said for him yelling at Anakin on Mustafar, at least in part. So while Anakin was aiming his anger outwards at those around him, Obi-Wan was focusing it inwards. But being the overwhelming emotion that it is, it had to come out somehow.

    If that made any sense... 8-}
  16. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    I agree. It wasn't an Anakin type anger but it was still anger. I just don't want to let seem that he didn't get angry because he did. In fact, I love the character more because he was human enough to feel anger but then let it go like the Jedi we all know and love.
  17. Nienna_Narmolanya Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2005
    star 4
    In fact, I love the character more because he was human enough to feel anger but then let it go like the Jedi we all know and love.

    I certainly agree. [face_love] Obi [face_love]

    Just think, if Obi-Wan didn't have human qualities and weaknesses, like anger, he would be a... Marty-Stu! :eek: It's the way he overcomes the less than ideal human emotions that makes him heroic.
  18. honour Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2003
    star 3
    I would argue that Watson has created a Mary Sue. I have no problem with Obi-Wan exhibiting human characteristics and flaws. However I do not remotely see in the films the individual that she conjures in The Last One Standing. One would think he was only the creation of Jinn and Skywalker if you read Watson's stuff. I think he is quite clearly his own person. Certainly, I don't see him nearly freaking out on the Tuskens and killing them like she has him almost do until - of course :rolleyes: - he remembers Jinn. Please. And, as I said, the sand business is pukeworthy:)


    EDIT - Sure people are affected by those who are close to them, but Watson leaves no room for Obi-Wan as an individual. What's more ridiculous is that she can't keep continuity in her own storyline. In one of the JA books, it's Yoda - yes, Yoda - she has Obi-Wan resolved not to forget when he is in danger of having his mind wiped. In her latest offering, Yoda is an afterthought. I contend that Obi-Wan is most like Yoda in personality, that he is extremely close to Yoda, and that there is evidence in the films support this contention. But Watson has now resorted to transfering Jinn's and Skywalker's traits as well as their likes and dislikes (sand!!!!) to Obi-Wan.
  19. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I partially agree, but a lot of what you cite I see as frustration (arguably a type of rage) and grief.

    TPM: Council scene - he looked darn upset when Qui-Gon said he'd take Anakin. Fighting Maul - the face of rage after Qui-Gon was stabbed and the way he jumped into the fray. That was not a tea party where everyone was polite - he went in slashing and stabbing. Gorgeous fight, btw. Plus in the novel of TPM, they made a point of his fury.
    I agree on both, though I think rage was mixed with disbelief in the Council scene (yeah, the novel says rage).

    AOTC: Yelled at Anakin during the Dooku chase scene when Padme fell off the transport. The look of rage when he cut off the legs and stabbed that crab-thing
    Here I disagree. Chase scene: frustration and disbelief, but not rage.
    Crab-thing: hah, I saw that as satisfaction (bad Jedi!)

    ROTS yelling at Anakin/Vader while he was burning
    In the novel, he yelled at Yoda, saying that they should have killed him (Obi-Wan) on Naboo before he ever brought Anakin to the Temple.


    Rage, pain, a whole host of emotions on Mustafar.
    Novel: rage I didn't see. Pure pain and grief.

    There are lots of other little things in the PT movies and novelizations of the movies.

    I admit that his anger was less as he grew older but I think you discount that he was also a human being. It's not that Jedi can't have emotions but that they must learn to control them. He was still learning even up through ROTS.

    A perfect Jedi he was not. Just a great one.


    I do not mean to say you're wrong (truly I don't), but I do happen to "see" a few of these emotions differently than you.

    I totally agree with the last line of yours that I quoted above.
  20. ardavenport Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    I have to disagree with the review of Watson's Last One Standing.

    It was a superb character study of Obi-Wan Kenobi after he had begun his vigil on Tatooine.=D= He would have never agreed if anyone had said anything to him about it, but he was in the midst of a profound depression; the only thing keeping him going was his mission to look after Luke. It was very touchingly handled without being heavy-handed.

    One of most revealing aspects of Obi-Wan's character (and a wonderful contrast to Anakin) was his confrontation with the Sand People. It was under vaguely similar circumstances as Anakin's in AOTC. Obi-Wan felt the temptation to take out the Tusken Raiders, but when the moment came, he just couldn't do it. It wasn't in his character and he found a very clever way of getting what he needed without a massacre. It isn't stated in the story, but I like to think that Qui-Gon's spirit was whispering to him then, but unlike in AOTC, Obi-Wan listened.

    FYI: The Last One Standing was an 18 page short story that was tacked onto the recent reprint of Legacy of the Jedi/Secrets of the Jedi. If you're interested but already have the two books, you could probably read it in the bookstore or at a library if they have it.
  21. honour Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2003
    star 3
    To each her/his own:) I thought it was garbage and had nothing to do with Obi-Wan's character, but Watson - as usual - appropriating the traits of other characters and imposing them on Obi-Wan. I personally don't see Obi-Wan as some hopeless nothing even in deep emotional pain. He certainly didn't have that look about him before the credits rolled in ROTS. Obi-Wan needed to hear Qui-Gon to not lash out in anger? When have the movies ever suggested that. Next she'll be writing that he can't remember how to put on his pants until he remembers Qui-Gon telling him how. And what exactly did the Tuskens do to Obi-Wan to invite the type of rage she implies? Also, an odd reaction from the Tuskens (or lack one) given that he's probably only the second lightsabre wielder they've encountered. One would think she could do a better job from of giving the reader some indication that the Tuskens recall the last one.
  22. Nienna_Narmolanya Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2005
    star 4
    Crab-thing: hah, I saw that as satisfaction (bad Jedi!)

    I agree with you on that, Valairy_Scot. I saw that look on his face as satisfaction also - and maybe a hint of disgust at the monster's smoking carnage. I love that scene actually because the thing has been getting in his way the entire arena battle, and he finally finishes it. I think it would be hard not to feel satisfaction at that point. I know I did. ;)

    honour and ardavenport - It's interesting to see your differing opinions of Last One Standing. It just goes to show that everyone sees just about everything in different ways. :) Maybe I should check out the book and add my opinion to the fray. :p But I have no way to get to the bookstore...
  23. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    I agree with ardavenport on Last Jedi Standing. I think Obi-Wan was in the throes of deep depression - it often hits after all that can be done has been done. He had his mission and that was his focus until he left Luke with the Lars. After that, he was supposed to commune with Qui-Gon as per Yoda's advice so thinking about Qui-Gon and their past relationship would make sense. Anger often is part of depression so that also made sense to me. <shrugs> Different POVs and life experiences will have people seeing different things from the same words/events/movie lines.

    I think each person has to make up their own mind on whether the book/story/characterization is appropriate or not.
  24. LilyHobbitJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
    star 5
    I definitely agree with ardavenport and dianethx; I really enjoyed Last One Standing. It really gave me personally an insight to what Obi-Wan must have been going through. I also liked the clever way he dealt with the Tusken Raiders.
  25. Jedikma Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2004
    star 4
    This is so true, Diane. I know there are times I see a different interpretation of a story than other people, or perhaps my focus of the story is on different details than another reader's focus. It definitly has to do with life experiences and the more you grow and learn, your perception can change over time.

    Watson's books are written for children and I can appreciate that. I also keep that in mind when reading them. Also remember, she puts a lot of what Obi-Wan is thinking in the stories, but many times he doesn't act the way he thinks. That's what I would expect of Obi-Wan. We all have negative thoughts and feelings, but if we are wise we don't act on most of them. Wisdom also dictates that we consider all our options, good and bad, so that we can come up with the best choice of action. Obi-Wan is human afterall. [face_love]


    So why on Earth of in the GFFA...would he almost break down over some chick we never even see on screen.

    A perfect example of a differening point of view. I never thought he almost broke down or even came close to breaking down. He had a moment of anger compounded by grief, which I would have expected even if she were only a friend. He didn't act on it or come close to acting on it. And just because in canon, we see Obi-Wan love only two people (I think he loved Yoda a great deal, too, btw) it's nieve to think he didn't love other people, as well. The man had to have friends, don't you think he would love his friends?

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