"From a Certain Point of View:" The Words of Obi-Wan

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Spike_Spiegel, Mar 1, 2003.

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  1. Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    The other day I was hanging with a friend and we hit upon what we thought was an interesting topic, the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi in the OT as viewed through the SW story arc. We thought it would make an interesting topic for the forum.

    Some things we were thinking about:

    -How do Obi-Wan's OT speeches affected your own ideas of what you expected from the PT?

    -How have the meaning of the words changes as viewed through the saga as a whole, not only the OT?

    -How are they linked (or not) to the PT?

    -How gave they affected your view of SW as a whole?

    -Anything else you want to add.




  2. Phantom-Iam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 24, 2002
    star 4
    I have read alot of comments of people quoting Lucas on how the OT will be viewed differently after the PT. I have always thought there are ways to have Obi Wan view seem real.

    I view the OT as only half of the bigger better story of 6 movies.

    edit: spelling
  3. SECRETSISTER Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2001
    star 8
    Sometimes I wonder if that phrase was used to manipulate Luke... to set him totally against Vader. Did Obi-Wan even think that it might raise Luke's anger. Wasn't there that danger in using it? How much did Vader's revelation skew his and Yoda's plans? Did they want Luke to destroy Vader? I'll bet Anikin Skywalker's redemption was a surprise! (albiet a pleasant one - especially for Obi-Wan)
  4. Dagobah_Denizen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    I think that Obi-Wan goes from being an Idealist in the PT to being a Guilty Ghost in the OT...

    I personally believe that in TPM Obi-Wan responded to Sio Bibble's transmission even after Qui-Gon told him not to. The very next scene is Sidious speaking with Maul about the accuracy of the trace to Tatooine. And the queen and R2 were hanging out with QG... they didn't even know about the transmission. I think Obi-Wan called the council and asked for advice; Maul traced the call. After all, Obi-Wan disliked his master disagreeing with the Jedi Council. Qui-Gon: ?I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan.? Obi-Wan: ?grrrrrr.? But you see, Qui-Gon knew nobody could help them at present anyway, so he says don?t call, and he is right. However, Obi-Wan chooses to get the advice of the council because the situation seems greater than two Jedi can handle, so he is also right. Two certain points of view, except Obi-Wan?s view is inexperienced and ultimately incorrect.

    In AOTC Obi-Wan idealistically chooses to side with the senate and the Republic without really considering what Dooku was telling him about Sidious. Additionally, Obi-Wan's failure to realize that Anakin would not idealistically fight along side him (as Obi-Wan did with Qui-Gon) resulted in he and Ani battling Dooku individually? which was bad.

    Obi-Wan will probably attempt to prevent Anakin from turning to the Dark Side in Ep3. Hence Vader?s lines in ROTJ: ?Obi-Wan once thought as you did.? & ?Now his failure is complete.?

    That is why Obi-Wan spends his time in the OT attempting to get Luke to behave and think as Qui-Gon did. You know: Don?t spend all your time thinking about what-might-be? Keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs? be true to yourself and your personal point-of-view, not necessarily to any institution?

    Obi-Wan (and Yoda) see that Qui-Gon was correct in the PT and they were wrong, so they instruct Luke in the OT perhaps as Qui-Gon would have.
  5. Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    Interesting idea. I always wondered how did Sidious trace the transmission when supposedly no trans where sent.


    I agree that there seems to be a great degree of guilt and even maybe shame in old Ben.
  6. Dagobah_Denizen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Yeah, I assumed some things that may not turn out to be true. But I do believe Anakin hit the nail on the head in AOTC when he said "It's all Obi-Wan's fault!"

    This is a cool thread Spike_Spiegel, because Obi-Wan is one of the few characters that appear in each and every Episode. I hope more people offer their opinions, tell me all about why I'm so wrong ;), etc.
  7. Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    I agree and thanks. Ben, besides Anakin, is the character that changes the most. Hopefully some other people can add to the discussion.

    Another question that popped up in my head
    Do you think that his failure with Anakin made Ben a better teacher? How do his teaching style change?

    In AotC he is more direct and is ready to scold instantly. With Luke he seems more patient and calm, like the way you would train a puppy. ;D

    Comments?
  8. Chewies_bandolier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    star 3
    Having just seen "A New Hope" after an (all too long) absence, I found Obi-Wan's little white lie (especially when combined with that look of unease in Alec Guiness's face as he tells it) to be rather disturbing. Here is a man, knowingly deceiving a very naive (to say the least) boy into someone who will one day kill his own father (albeit dicatator and general nasty person of the galaxy). The line about Anakin being "the best pilot in the galaxy ... and a good friend" again, sold by Obi-Wan's poignant look of regret was made more so as through AOTC, we see and know who he is exactly referring to.

  9. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Actually, I think Obi-Wan wanted to redeem Anakin all along. Perhaps he wasn´t sure it was going to work, but it was worth a shot.
    The reason he didn´t tell Luke that Anakin had become Vader and helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights was that Luke would never be able to love his father if he saw him as a monster. It was important for Luke to view Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader as two different individuals if he was gonna want to bring his father back from the dark side.
    Then, when Luke had learned the truth, it was important that he found his own trust that Anakin could be brought back. If Obi-Wan had told him that Anakin must be redeemed in order to bring balance to the Force, Luke´s mission wouldn´t have been half as important for him as it would be if it was turned into something personal.
    Luke had to decide for himself that there was still good in his father.

    Back to topic :) : I never imagined that Obi-Wan would be trained by someone else than Yoda, but now that we know how the old Jedi order works it feels very logical that he was.
    I also never imagined that Obi-Wan would not be the one who wanted Anakin trained from start, but that also worked out very well.
  10. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "The reason he didn't tell Luke that Anakin has become Vader and helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights was that Luke would never be able to love his father if he saw him as a monster."

    But if Luke kills Vader and discovers afterwards that Vader is his long-lost father, then Luke would hate Obi-wan for lying to him and decieving him into being a Jedi just because Obi-wan messed up with Anakin's training. What's worse is that Luke would be doing what Anakin did which is succumb to the Dark Side and become the next Sith Lord making Obi-wan's and Yoda's efforts to ressurrect the Jedi order in vain.
  11. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Being a Force user in Star Wars, you have to take chances. I think Obi knew that Luke would never be able to beat Vader if he wasn´t ready. If he was ready, he would know the truth.
  12. jag29 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 3
    Ben had to tell Luke that. If he had come out and told Luke that Vader was his father and oh ya by the way you have to kill him because I couldn't do it. I really doubt Luke would have said oh okay. Luke would have been filled with alot of different emotions.
  13. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I changed my view: Obi wanted Vader dead, that´s why he wanted Luke to view Vader not as his father, but as any darksider.
  14. Spike_Spiegel Former FF Administrator Former Saga Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 6
    I think that Ben knew that Luke was in a dangerous moment of his training. He had the Force, but he couldn't control it very well. In this moment he could probably turn easily since he might not have the training to resist.

    Remember this kid is an orphan, it is reasonable to think that Ben believed that as an orphan, he would run at the chance to meet his father. I think both Yoda and Ben underestimated Luke in this regard.
  15. jag29 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 3
    I believe they underestimated him too. They seen his father turn to the darkside and probably thought that it would be much easier for Luke to fall as well, due to lack of training.
  16. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    It seemed to me that Obi-Wan wanted Luke to destroy Vader originally, rather than redeem him. Because as well all know, Obi-Wan had lost all hope that any good still resided in him. Yoda however stated, to complete his training, Luke must confront Vader. Yoda could always see the true path of things more so than Obi-Wan, or so it seems.
  17. Naberrie_SkyWalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2002
    star 5
    I agree. As much as I like Obi character it is quite obvious that he had given up on his padawan. Obi thought he had to die, plain and simple...he even states that "the emporer has already won" when Luke says he cannot kill his FATHER(notice he does not say Vader, he says FATHER..so Obi knows who he is talking about..even though he tries to cover it by telling Luke not to confuse the two..). Yoda on the other hand never says kill..only saying that Luke must confront him..(and in turn confront his fear of being like his father since a jedi is not supposed to have fear since fear leads to ..).If Yoda did not know I think he DID believe that there was a chance to save Anakin/Vader.

    Obi is in the OT a changed man..not quite so lilly white. It is obvious that he told Luke about "the good man that was your father"..brave jedi..super pilot..wonderful friend to entice him..only after he is in too far to back out is Luke given the other side of the story..though to Obi and Yoda's credit he prolly found out in a much different way then they had planned..
  18. DarthSil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2003
    star 4
    My 2 cents:

    In as much as I hate to admit it, I do get the impression that Obi-Wan does want Vader destroyed. Aside from his obvious reasons for hating Vader, keep in mind we still haven't seen Episode III yet and have no real knowledge of what Anakin's crimes against the Jedi Order were. He might have given up on Anakin simply because he saw first hand what Anakin was capable of. And aside from the Tusken massacre, we have not.

    All will be made clear in 2005. ;)
  19. MrMan77 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Anakin's redemption would not be so shocking, triumphant and dramatic if there seemed to be any hope that it was possible. At the beginning of ROTJ, Kenobi Yoda AND the audience still see Anakin as Vader. We shouldn't believe that he is redeemable, which makes it so dramatic when he does. Therefore it makes sense dramatically that Obi-Wan believes Luke must destroy Vader. Note that he doesn't WANT Vader killed, he simply knows it is the only way.
  20. V-Darthavich-Lenin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2002
    star 1
    One thing that I am interested to see is if Obi-Wan's lines in ANH about Luke's father wanting him to have his lightsaber when he was old enough is the truth or just from a certain point of view or just a complete lie so that Luke feels a conection to his father by having his old lightsaber. In other threads people use this line to argue about weather or not Darth Vader/Anakin knew about Luke before ANH. So I think it will be interesting to see how this plays out in III.
  21. DEEPBLUE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2003
    star 1
    -I also never imagined that Obi-Wan would not be the one who wanted Anakin trained from start, but that also worked out very well.-

    another fact to consider. obi-wan intends to train luke as a jedi. it is possible that obi-wan is aware of yoda's existence. obi-wan need only mention the name of an existing jedi who will complete luke's training, rather than the name of a dead jedi who is inconsequential to the prophecy at this point in the films. it stands to reason that qui-gon is not mentioned the ot.

    that being said, if gui-gon is a force-voice in the pt - as opposed to a force ghost - why is he not heard in the ot. perhaps he still communicates with yoda, and the audience is not made privy to it.
  22. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    The reason Qui-Gon's voice isn't heard in the OT is because Luke had never known who Qui-Gon was since he was dead 15 years before Luke is born so he has no connection with Qui-Gon like he does with Obi-wan, Yoda, and Anakin.
  23. DEEPBLUE Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2003
    star 1
    - he has no connection with Qui-Gon like he does with Obi-wan, Yoda, and Anakin. -

    this is not a debated fact. nonetheless, these last three characters -are- in the ot. the point i was trying to make is, [interrogative]does something occur in the pt that prevents gui-gon from communicating with obi-wan, yoda, or anakin in the ot[/interrogative]
  24. Ktulu_Terumo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    star 4
    "My point of view..."

    I find that must of Obi-Wan's words in the OT doesn't quite coincide with the PT.
    I always picture Old Ben to be the resamble of what a Jedi was, bealiving what he said is what actually happened, until I saw TPM and AOTC.

    Old Ben tells Luke in the OT:

    "When I first knew him (Anakin) your father was already a great pilot."

    NOT

    The two times whe can see young Anakin's skills are in the PT (So far)1. During the pod race and 2. During the space battle against the TF Core Ship.
    Obi-Wan wasn't present to actually see that, besides what Anakin did in that space battle is not what I consider "great pilot", it was a lot of luck.

    "But I was amazed how strong the Force was with him"

    Again, NOT

    Obi-Wan didn't share Qui-Gon's opinion regarding Anakin. He thougth Anakin was dangerous , didn't trusted him, and agreed with the HC that Anakin shouldn't be trained.

    "I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi"

    NOT. He only accepted Anakin as a padawan because he promised his dying Master.


    I always respected Obi-Wan from the OT, but the PT made me change that opinion
  25. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Anakin hasn't learned about Qui-Gon's ability to speak from beyond the grave so he wasn't able to communicate with him while Obi-wan and Yoda felt that Qui-Gon was responsible for the destruction of the Jedi Order by bringing Anakin into the mix at a very old age which is why they don't communicate with him no more.
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