Characters From Before to Beyond: Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan Discussion Thread! - January Challenge up!

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by Kestella, Aug 7, 2006.

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  1. ardavenport Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    You haven't made Obi-Wan bald in a fic? Baldness through disease or radiation is always possible -- one would think that they could take care of radiation problems as easily as a broken limb in the GFFA -- but shaving him is much more fun. [face_mischief]

    Not speaking.......I am contemplating a version of that for both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan but that is a little further down on my list and needs more filling out.

    Um, I have missed a very obvious choice; violence.

    - shooting (blaster or projectile weapon)
    - blunt trauma
    - stabbing
    - explosions

    There is also burning by fire, plasma or chemicals, but those could be either intentional or accidental.

  2. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    Would blunt trauma include being beaten up?

    There's also poison.

    .......Well we're just all sunshine and cupcakes, aren't we? :p

    I imagine shaving Obi-Wan would be fun. Qui-Gon shaving him doubles the fun. Um, excuse me for a moment.....
  3. earlybird-obi-wan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2006
    star 6
    I have seen them and baldness;) I have written one Temple of doom and painted Obi-Wan with his hair returning

    [image=http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/earlybird-obi-wan/forcenetart/obidoom5.jpg]
  4. ardavenport Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    Temple of Doom - - - excellent title! That certainly describes what we're planning for Obi-Wan........and Qui-Gon. When we're in the mood.

    Soooooo...... the list list list is looking like:

    - enslaved
    - critically ill
    - ill with something annoying and humorous
    - killed tragically (is there any other way to kill Obi-Wan?)
    - memory loss
    - drugged
    - going to the dark side
    - insane
    - allergic reaction (this could go either humorous or critical)
    - loses the Force
    - blindness
    - deafness
    - paralysis
    - baldness
    - shooting (blaster or projectile weapon)
    - beaten up
    - heavy things dropped on him (either accident or on purpose)
    - stabbing
    - explosions
    - poison

    (I broke up 'Blunt Trauma into 'beaten up and things being dropped on him)

    Not that I'm keeping score or anything....... [face_mischief]

    One of the points of fan-fiction for me is to get to the ooey-gooey center of the characters I love best. And one time-honor, traditional method is to stress them in the stories we write. And so often this leads to injury. And they suffer so well. :*

  5. Seremela Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2008
    star 3
    I want more stories with Qui-Gon as the one who suffers :_|

    Not that I have much right to speak up just now, it's not like I'm contributing much myself lately :( Not even in the reading department....


  6. ardavenport Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    I'm sure we can think of ways for them both to suffer. [face_mischief] Qui-Gon would be more stoic, Obi-Wan more vulnerable, but only because of their ages. Older Obi-Wan would be more stoic, too.

    Hmmmm, that gets me thinking........how much of Qui-Gon did we see in older Obi-Wan in ANH? Well, technically none, since ANH predated TPM by 22 years. But one can imagine that Obi-Wan unconsciously imitated a lot of Qui-Gon's characteristics when he was older.

    I am woefully behind on reading myself. I can write, I can make costumes, plus the usual maintenance of life (like vacuuming) and I always fall behind on reading. I am a rather slow reader, alas.

    I like to peek in on the Resources thread; good place for ideas and even if I don't get ideas, the interaction with other fan writers somewhat more in contact with fandom in general.



  7. Seremela Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2008
    star 3
    I just tried one story too many where Qui-Gon was the stupid, insensitive jerk who hurts Obi-Wan. I know I should't let it get to me, everybody her own taste and all that, but I sort of didn't feel like coming to the fanfic part of the boards for a while.

    Which is stupid, because then I miss the many good stories as well [face_beatup]

    Still, two weeks vacation coming up and I hope I'll be all inspired again, and with the energy back to laugh off things like that instead of getting depressed.


  8. Nienna_Narmolanya Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2005
    star 4
    What about imprisoned? Or stranded on a hostile planet? (Not to be confused with enslavement, of course.) ;) Hmm...mind control? I'm trying to think if I've read any fics where Obi-Wan was mind controlled by an outside source, either through the Force somehow or some other method. I guess it would be difficult to control the mind of a Jedi though.

    Excuse my ramblings. :p I'm enjoying the topic you posed, ardavenport, because Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan hurt/comfort stories were what brought me into reading fan fiction in the first place. I can't for the life of me say why I like them so much, just that there's something about Obi-Wan getting into trouble that keeps me reading. ;) I think it is because he's more vulnerable (as a padawan) and maybe because he has such a pure and unselfish spirit. When something bad happens to Obi-Wan, it seems like an even greater injustice than if the same thing happened to someone else and so we root doubly hard for him to overcome the circumstances.
  9. ardavenport Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    Ooooooh I've run into those, especially on the older back pages. [face_laugh] They are so overdone that it's not like it's even Qui-Gon. Which is a bit disappointing since you peeked into the story for some Qui-Gon and got something else. Like biting into something that you think is chocolate chips and getting stale glazed fruit instead. There can be a lot more stories that you're not interested in than ones you like; it's just a strategy of skimming of looking for references for the ones you want.

    A lot of that seemed to be extrapolated from Qui-Gon announcing that he was taking Anakin while his own padawan was standing right there, assuming that Qui-Gon always casually hurts Obi-Wan's feelings and takes him for granted. But I always thought that Obi-Wan was more surprised than hurt. And that he was quite eager hear Qui-Gon say that he was ready to take his Trials to be a knight. And that Qui-Gon had been hanging onto Obi-Wan a little too long?

    I also got the impression that Obi-Wan knows how to handle his master when he gets stubborn. He just waits a day and apologies for being disrespectful and Qui-Gon melts. [face_love] Obi-Wan is the young diplomat. Qui-Gon may be a competent diplomat, but an impulsive one and not very subtle.

    Aaaaaaah, we need to add to the list

    - enslaved
    - critically ill
    - ill with something annoying and humorous
    - killed tragically (is there any other way to kill Obi-Wan?)
    - memory loss
    - drugged
    - going to the dark side
    - insane
    - allergic reaction (this could go either humorous or critical)
    - loses the Force
    - blindness
    - deafness
    - paralysis
    - baldness
    - shooting (blaster or projectile weapon)
    - beaten up
    - heavy things dropped on him (either accident or on purpose)
    - stabbing
    - explosions
    - poison
    - imprisonment or behind held captive
    - mind control

    And I think we can also add:

    - starvation
    - extreme climates, hot and cold
    - drowning
    - sensory deprivation
    - lightsaber injuries

    This list could also apply to just about any character, of course, not just Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.

    I agree that we like putting our favorites in jeopardy just so we can root for them to overcome it. A happy ending can be very satisfying. But we also like to see them challenged, exposed and vulnerable. He's good at that. Even when he's older on Tatooine, you know that he's been living the life of a hermit to protect Luke and he ended up sacrificing himself to let Luke get away on the Death Star. How could you not love him? :*


  10. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5

  11. Seremela Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2008
    star 3
    Oh, I immediately get out of a story when I see it's that kind of story, but by then I've read that scene already. Coupled with a bit of a down time in RL plus too few Qui-Gon stories around that I can happily bury myself in, makes that it gets to me at the moment. Which I *know* is stupid and why I really need that vacation to recharge.

    As for the scene where Qui-Gon confronts the Council over Anakin being the reason for it, I've never seen it as a rejection of Obi-Wan until I found that idea here. I always saw it, and still do, as an immediate, angry respons to the Council that made Qui-Gon forget everything else for a moment. A bit stupid and certainly thoughtless to Obi-Wan, but very human. Plus, Obi-Wan is 26! An adult! And so, how long could it still take before he's knighted? He has to be close to it, hasn't he? While Anakin is so small and lost and needs Qui-Gon.

    I guess it gets coupled with Qui-Gon's dying request, but hey, do you see how tender he touches Obi-Wan's cheek as well? If that doesn't show how he feels about his apprentice, I don't know what does :(



    So these are my thougths on it:

    * If portraying Qui-Gon as mean and insensitive only comes from that one scene in the movie, then I don't know why Obi-Wan is almost always portrayed as so saintly nice. He had no qualms whatsoever in leaving Jar Jar to his death, and immediately complained about 'another pathetic life form' when Qui-Gon goes back for Anakin - which from Qui-Gon's reaction you can see he didn't appreciate in his apprentice. There's also Obi-Wan's whole 'the Council is all and knows all' attitude. Plus he has this rather constant criticising of his master going on. So... why do those scenes not lead up to a wholey different characterization of Obi-Wan? When one scene can be the reason to make Qui-Gon completely different in a fic from what we see on screen?

    The man's a maverick, stubborn, completely convinced that what he does is the right way of it, and not afraid of some risk taking, but his compassion is very clear as well, as is his deep devotion to the Force.


    * I would get a few writers portraying Qui-Gon that insensitive and mean, or, like you Valairy, do it for a story to explore some ideas (and why not; like it must be fun to write Dark QG and/or Dark OW), but there's so MUCH of it. And it's not just stories, but reactions to other stories about QG being 'mean', 'has to take his head out of his ***' etc when he's not even portrayed mean or insensitive in the story they comment on, that show me there's those who really see the character that way.

    And that I don't get, but I guess that's fairly obvious by now....


    * I think the JA books might have something to do with it as well, not only that one scene in the movie. To me that's like the fanfiction of someone else determining how you see the character from then on, since I think there are some rather idiotic ideas worked into those books, like the whole choosing an apprentice thing or Xanatos (who's a great source for stories, no doubt about that, but would have made it impossible for Anakin to be taken to the temple by Qui-Gon; way too similar a case). Actually, that's something that does happen in fanfiction, so that could very well be. A fanfiction portrays Qui-Gon as mean to Obi-Wan, *gasp* look at what a wonderful way that is to make Obi-Wan suffer, and off they go to do the same. Until the fannon takes over from cannon.


    (getting off my soap box now, sorry, but I really needed to get this off my chest for a while now :( )



  12. earlybird-obi-wan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2006
    star 6
    I am always portraying Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon as two friends, like son and father, and the things in TPM? banter between them. The books may be a bit about hurting obi too but in the end the two turn out just like the two friends as I see them.

    In Rogue planet you see a different Obi-Wan who knows that his master is one with the Force and guiding him.
  13. ardavenport Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    From what I've seen in the back pages, the mean-Qui-Gon syndrome used to be MUCH worse. I don't know if I would have hung around here much with all that going on. But even so, there were a lot of Qui-Gon fans here, too. It's good to get things out. Without the internet I'd never have anyone to share my SW fixation with.

    Qui-Gon is impulsive. When Obi-Wan looks over at him when he tells the Council that he's taking on Anakin, I thought he looked more annoyed than angry, like "What are you doing THIS TIME, Master???"

    However, both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are 'company men' as far as being Jedi goes. But Qui-Gon is dedicated to the Jedi and the Force. For Obi-Wan that also includes the Jedi Order and the Jedi Council. He was an obvious choice for the Jedi Council later. Obi-Wan is not saintly, but he is *definitely* more conventional and thoughtful. Obi-Wan thinks ahead more than Qui-Gon and is less likely to cause problems by just diving into something. And Qui-Gon knows it, too. That's what he meant when he told Obi-Wan that he was a 'much wiser man than I.'

    I don't think the JA books over-do the mean-Qui-Gon. He's a bit thoughtless, but as soon as something serious happens he's right there for Obi-Wan. And while Qui-Gon stoically doesn't say much, Obi-Wan really brings out his protective nature, thought sometimes it takes a few disasters before that happens. Qui-Gon can be stubborn.

  14. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    I think Obi-Wan was upset about the Council meeting. It says as much in the TPM novelization---afterwards, Qui-Gon privately acknowledges that he hurt Obi-Wan. Your knighthood is supposed to be a big deal. For Qui-Gon to accept Anakin as his Padawan before even recommending Obi-Wan for his trials is rather tacky and definitely could be construed as hurtful. I don't think Qui-Gon intended it to be hurtful, but he's also an adult, and had to have known the impact it would have.

    Someone pointed out awhile back that when Obi-Wan says "you've picked up another pathetic lifeform" it was before he knew that life form was Anakin. Also, he has a dry sense of humor, described as such in many profic books. The pathetic life form seems more like an inside joke between them. Obi-Wan doesn't discourage Qui-Gon from freeing Anakin, he objects to Anakin's training because he senses a bad future ahead---one that he was right about.

    A large part of the dynamic you find in fanfic also comes from, I think, the fact that Qui-Gon's dying words link Anakin to Obi-Wan, and pretty much force Obi-Wan (again, regardless of intention) to train this boy he had serious doubts about to begin with. Obi-Wan is pretty selfless to do that. That isn't to say he's a saint. But you can see where the seeds are there for certain characterizations. Certainly many authors (myself included) push it to the point where it's out-of-character.
  15. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5

    Yet, in all honesty, a LOT of us fans do see it as an unintentional rejection of Obi-Wan by Qui-Gon. You may be right; we may be right, but we do see it coming across that way regardless of intentions (just as LuvEwan so eloquently stated).

    And rejection hurts, despite one's age.

    And yes, that tender touch does much to counter my initial "how could you, Qui-Gon" moment when I first saw TPM (and keep in mind that until ROTS my favorite character was Luke. I had no prediliction to Obi-Wan as my fav SW character at that time.) I basically saw Qui and Obi as a team, partners but not really all that close in the beginning (oh, those stoic Jedi personalities, sigh).

    Okay, I will argue :pthis one. Watch the scene. Obi-Wan makes his pathetic life forms comment and only then does Qui-Gon say, "It's the boy."

    No way is that comment is directed at Anakin (and besides, Qui was pretty darn dismissive to Jar Jar at first meeting, too, so one example does not make a good case for either Jedi's compassion or lack of. That was just as mean and uncalled for [even if correct] as Obi-Wan's supposed "pathetic life form" comment about Anakin - and worse, because that comment was both intentional and directly addressed to Jar Jar).

    Now, Obi-Wan's focus on the mission (let's leave all distractions aside, including annoying Gungans) can be rather dismissive, but then again, he's still young. One wonders how many missions have been sidetracked by Qui before this.

    Qui does (eventually) see a means to save Jar Jar (and please, do not tell me they needed Jar Jar to navigate, that was an excuse plain and clear to save him - IMHO, that is).

    The balance between Qui's "in the moment" and Obi-wan's "focus on the mission" probably make them so effective a team - the combination of both traits.

    Not disputing that. I agree.

    But I think that a lot of fans take Qui's "follow the Force at all costs" to imply that the rest of the Jedi (all of them) are blind to the Will of the Force, and if Qui and other Jedi disagree, why then, end of discussion, follow Qui's lead.

    Life is far too complicated for anything to be that simple.

    By the way, I am so TOTALLY enjoying this back and forth DISCUSSION.



  16. ardavenport Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    I'm enjoying the discussion, too. :D

    Yeah, Qui-Gon is stubborn. I think that his throwing Obi-Wan away in favor of Anakin was more single-minded, thoughtless and impulsive than tacky. Tacky isn't an adjective that I think of with Qui-Gon. I suppose if you dipped him in something sticky, then he'd be tacky. :p

    The way that Obi-Wan said 'pathetic life form' made me think that this is an old joke between them. And Obi-Wan said it with a smile. I'm not sure if Qui-Gon liked the joke, but I don't think it was anything more than that between them.

    About Qui-Gon's last moments with Obi-Wan. . . . . I am such a fan-girl that the very first time I saw that scene in the theater I thought, "Oh, the slash writers are going to go nuts with that." :rolleyes: Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are both adults in TPM, but I don't see anything physical between them because of their teacher-student / father-son relationship. And most importantly, both of them are selfless Jedi first and would mutually avoid attachments forbidden by the Jedi Code. This could lead to all kinds of angsty longing, I suppose, but I think of that as AU since the serious emotional side of their relationship doesn't come out until Qui-Gon is dying at the end of the movie which would bring out intense emotionalism no matter what their background.

    Speaking of dying. . . . . Qui-Gon really did dump his stubborn obsession onto Obi-Wan with making him promise to take on Anakin. If he hadn't touched Obi-Wan's face, it might have looked like he didn't care at all about Obi-Wan. But I think things would have been worse if Qui-Gon had not pressured Obi-Wan into taking Anakin. By then, Palpatine was set to be Chancellor and Anakin had saved Naboo, so if the Jedi had not taken in Anakin then Palpatine would have.

    I really agree that they are a complimentary team! This is the team they've developed into after years of Obi-Wan's training. But it makes me think that they were different in the beginning, when Obi-Wan had very little experience. Back then, Qui-Gon might have realized that he could not be as impulsive as he might like. Maybe. Possibly. At least, I picture Obi-Wan as being a very mature teenager (a LOT more mature than Anakin ever was) possibly out of necessity to compensate for his master.

  17. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Totally, TOTALLY AGREE.

    Nods head. It drives me batty to hear folks say Obi-Wan directed that comment at Anakin so that Anakin is justified in resenting Obi-Wan because that attitude was "always there." Those are the same fans that don't see the smile.

    I see Qui's weary rebuttal of that as either 1. he's tired and not ready to play along with the joke this time, or 2. he's never appreciated the joke but tolerated it, but right now is the not the time to joke around....

    Oh, I SO agree with that. Obi-Wan wasn't perfect, but he was probably quite mature for his age. I see Obi-Wan the "parent reigning in" the "enthusiastic child" in off duty play (to a certain point of course).
  18. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4

    We continue to go nuts with it. :D Qui-Gon didn't mind attachments when it came to Tahl.

    Obviously "tacky" was bad word choice. "Thoughtless" is definitely an appropriate term for it.
  19. ardavenport Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    That sounds about right. ;) I like lines like that in movies. It gives the characters a implied history. There is only so much you can do in 2+ hours of film time. Words, gestures, expressions like that give the characters a lot more depth than what you could get by just saying it.

    Weeeeeeelllllll, I don't always assume that Tahl exists in my fics.

    Yeah, you just want to get Obi-Wan all sticky instead. [face_mischief]

    BTW, according to the newest Clone Wars preview for season 2, they're coming up with a female non-Jedi character who Obi-Wan might have been interested in at one time. Anakin at least calls her 'Obi-Wan's girlfriend'. I wonder how they'll play that?

  20. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
  21. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    However, ahem, to be serious...seriously, a non-Jedi girlfriend. Sigh. First they give Anakin a padawan (and there's so much wrong with that - it does NOT FIT the established movie timeline in my humble opinion, regardless of Ahsoka's appeal or lack of) and now they give Obi-Wan a girlfriend?

    I hope that's a joke or plays better than it sounds (or is a Jedi named Siri - though I'm not sure about actually seeing that though it's fun to write in fanfic).

    Now, if Obi-Wan ended up with a "pathetic life form" like say a cute abandoned kitty that Anankin calls his girlfriend - well, unlikely, but a bit more believable.
  22. ardavenport Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    From the little bit I saw, she's definitely not a kitty - the one line I heard was something like, 'I remember when Jedi were peace keepers not warriors.'

    About Ahsoka......... Anakin having a padawan is an odd case indeed. If they wanted a female Jedi, it would have been better to just partner Obi-Wan and Anakin with someone. But I guess they wanted the teen age demographic.

    The only things that makes Ahsoka work for me are:

    - the voice actor for her is good.
    - for the Clone Wars, the Jedi were completely thrown into a war; the whole order is being stress, which is what Palpatine intended.
    - they are short of masters for the Clone Wars.
    - Obi-Wan and Yoda are working on the theory that having to teach a padawan will get Anakin to grow up himself. This is implied in the original movie, but not state.


    Honestly, I kind of hope that Ahsoka gets locked up something, but everyone thinks she's dead and she turns up after Luke takes down the Empire. If you're going to mess up the EU, why not go all the way?

    They had a flashback with Qui-Gon in the first Clone Wars cartoon. I wish they would do that again.

  23. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Nah, they wanted a smart-mouthed, bare-stomached teenage female for the fanboys and as a "role model" for the girls. I think.

    I kind of like the sassy girl, but not in Star Wars. There's just too much to point to that doesn't work (diminishes our viewing of the Obi-Anakin friendship too little seen in the movies, screws with RoTS - what, no mention of a padawan!, her dress on a battlefield [same objection I had to Lt. Uhuru on the bridge of the good starship Enterprise....)

    THIS I understand, but as said above, it doesn't fit the story or the story timeline. Just - doesn't.


    Did I miss that? [face_thinking] Really?

    [/quote]
  24. ardavenport Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2004
    star 4
    Yep. I don't recall which episode it was, but it was one somewhere in the middle; I think it was a very short Anakin dream/vision. The art style gave Qui-Gon a Picasso-like honker on his face, but it was him, being wise and mysteries. There might have been an ominous-looking tree, too. I'll have to look it up.

    You don't like sassy girls? In Star Wars??? What about Princess Leia? The original sassy girl. I'm sure they patterned some of Ahsoka's attitude after Leia.

    If Ahsoka does die, or if he thinks she's dead, this would certainly be one more thing that would push Anakin to the dark side. He does not do well with loss. Perhaps I'm wrong but I sort of take it for granted that she HAS to die. I don't know how else she could fit into the story.

    And about her clothes......aside for wearing that tube top in battle, she doesn't really have a whole lot to hold it up with, does she? Unless there is something serious that we don't know about Togruta anatomy, she's a wardrobe malfunction looking for a place to happen.
  25. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Eh, I like sassy women more. ;)

    Or she turns out to be a 23 year old posing as a thirteen year old - hah! Surprise!

    I have to wonder if she gets paired with another master...something about Yoda's line hints at that, to me, though how...?

    Er, tube top also doesn't work if one has a lot of...dragging it down.

    Anyway, you give me a plot bunny idea...Ahsoka bends over (only an inch will do it) and the males on the other side all freeze. That's when Obi & Ani & the clones capture a whole battalion of males (obviously will not work with droids. I think.)

    Actually, I'd love to see her bend over, try to hike down her skirt at the same time for modesty (yeah, right), fight her tube top slipping and still manage to decapitate 10 droids all at once.

    Yeah, sure.
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