Characters From Before to Beyond: Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan Discussion Thread! - January Challenge up!

At which point inference over truth becomes an idea.

Yes, Lucas left it open, but my tendency was then to think that it didn't have so much to do with the discovery as the full fruition of the discovery. It was a symptom of understanding not a requirement, if that makes any sense. To many fans want to force it being a requirement. Since it obviously isn't, then the course of thinking has to change, not the story itself.

That Qui-Gon's road to having someone actually listen and understand him was a little more rocky is evident in how long it takes yoda to figure out he was hearing that voice for a reason. Hence a posibility that the "symptom" of disappearing didn't happen for Qui-Gon, but isn't a requirement to immortality.

just my 2 cents worth, because thinking outside the box is going to become important to any resolution to this

 

Oooh Diane, I'm stealing that bunny of Qui-Gon as the Chancellor of the Republic... my padawan and I had a nice long talk about it, do you mind me taking it? I've been hunting for a bunny for NaNoWriMo

 

Unfortunately, you can't because it's not my idea. It's from Terri Hammill's Wheel of If series (slash) chapter 14. A great story. He's a very interesting Chancellor. You might ask her if you can use it. I can't give the website address, either since it's slash and that's not allowed here.

I'm not sure if others haven't used the idea as well, though.

 

Blue ghosties and Jedi rogues? What *have* I been missing? *shakes her fist at Darth Homework once again*

I just got caught up with the discussion and I enjoyed every word of it. Interesting thoughts all around. I too would love to see a book exploring a Jedi's path to immortality. What things did Qui-Gon have to teach Yoda and Obi-Wan before they could become blue ghosts as well? How did Qui-Gon learn? I just started reading Dark Rendezvous and in a passage I read today it mentioned something about retaining one's Force presence upon death instead of being swallowed up by the "sea" of Force presences - at least I think it did... I think Yoda was pondering the waves in the lake... [/incoherent babble]

Wait... Was Qui-Gon the first Jedi to achieve immortality? If so, how could he do it when no one else before him could? Sorry, but I won't even pretend to be a Qui-Gon expert. He's a mystery to me...but an intriguing one.

 

She said I could have it, Diane and that I hadn't needed to ask, but she was pleased I did anyway

 

Excellent, Layren. I'll look forward to reading it. He would make a great Chancellor.

 

Nienna, to answer your question, yes. Qui was the first Jedi to achieve immortality this way. at least that's according to canon sources.

 

New Qui-Gon topic!

Ah, the question of the relationship, or lack there of, between Qui-Gon Jinn and his Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi.

In TPM he isn't that fatherly to Obi-Wan, willing to brush him aside for the Chosen One, intentionally or not. Their relationship in the film reminds one much more of a warm teacher/student connection. And let us not forget the Jedi Code that, while Qui tends to bend to his liking, is still a strong factor in his responses.

Jude Watson's books have further set these two emotionally apart and as much as we may or may not disagree with her style, the JA series is accepted as canon by many.

Which brings us to the topic at hand.

Have we done Qui-Gon a disservice by often portraying him from such a fatherly perspective when it comes to Obi-Wan?


QUICK THREAD REMINDER: This is a discussion. No flaming will be tolerated. Everyone's interpretation of a character is valid as it is how they personally view a character. Please remember that before posting. Thank you.

 

When I think of the Obi/Qui relationship, I think first teacher/student and then father/son. That might be from the way they acted in TPM, or the rather distant relationship in the JA books, but I got the sense that while they loved each other like father and son, first and foremost they were Jedi.

It's like having a favorite teacher in high school or college, someone who challenges you, someone who doesn't always compliment you or tell you that he's proud of you. Of course if he's the only parental figure you've ever known, then you're much more likely to see him as a father. The first example that comes to mind is Morgan Freeman's character from Lean on Me. He's stern, uncompromising, and provides endless support to one of the female students. Or maybe a better one is Louis Gosset, Jr. from An Officer and a Gentleman.

Disservice? Not sure. It seems to me that parents are more likely to protect their kids as much as possible because there's a strong emotional bond. A teacher, on the other hand, has one year to whip you into shape, and possibly that education will have a profound effect on your life. I think that Qui-Gon's job is to help Obi-Wan become a full Jedi Knight, to nurture him more as a student than a son.

I mean, I don't think Qui-Gon would risk everything to save Obi-Wan, were his padawan in trouble. Considering the way Obi-Wan views death, and the way such attachments can make you do terrible things (Anakin), Qui-Gon seems to be of the mindset that he and Obi-Wan have a job to do, and if Obi-Wan has to die, then he has to die. That's part of the Jedi oath they swore. It may seem coldhearted, but to me it's more in tune with Eastern philosophies that the Jedi Code partly embodies - the body is nothing, but the mind and soul go on. Jude Watson and I don't agree, since she has Qui-Gon going postal after Tahl's death, but there you go.

 

Yes, I personally believe that there has been some disservice on many levels.

One that you are very right. It wasn't a father sone relationship, but was something that our great-great's might have understood better, a true apprentice/Master relationnship, with the Master being someone that has already proven that he can excel at the given vocation.

His stewardship is not to father Obi-Wan if we go back to the traditional meaning of that sort of relationship, but to teach Obi-Wan what it is to be a Jedi.

I think Jude Watson even tread the side of being a father too much in ways, given that this is a professional relationship, though mot from Qui-Gon but the rather unreasonable expectations of Obi-Wan wishing for such a thing by implication.

The thing I find distressing at times is that these are men. Given that we even write a father/son relationship a great deal on the boards and with other sites I have read stories at, and having four sons so I have been well able to watch father son relationships right up close. My sons' father is rather sentimental so keeping that in perspective I have to tell you that sometimes we have over "sapped" our father son expectations here. The simple truth is that even close father sons relationships aren't the sentimental. At my house I expected broken cupboards, broken furniture and broken bones from the rough housing but not a lot of the gushy stuff

Also there is the fact that rare is Qui-Gon actually nailed for what he is, which is .. a man who chooses to do right because that is what is most important to him, by some pretty unorthodox methods(Think of the ultra responsible person who rushes to the beach with the kids and then sits and worries about all the things they should be doing instead when they get there!). His mind is quick and ready for the next challenge. It doens't mean he doesn't care about his last challenge (Obi-Wan) but the fact is Obi-Wan showed himself exactly what Qui-Gon Said.. ready for knighthood, and to let those wings fly.

 

Hey! I just found that this is where we'd been redirected! I'll be dropping in later to comment on the discussions! I've enjoyed what everyone's been saying up to this point.

 

I think the Qui/Obi relationship has to be portrayed as a student teacher matching to stay ture to cannon.

I myself am a father and like most other fathers there is a strong attachment to our children. Now in the Jedi code, attachments are forbidden. Qui has been around along time and knows this. Therefore he must view himself as a teacher, not a father, to avoid the possibility of attachment.

 

What Jade said.

I see them as teacher/student, albeit a close one, and one that has seen some familiarity, because of the missions they share and the bond ... but they are Jedi, first and foremost. The Father/son dynamic is something that won't work, not when one is the master and that other is a pupil. And it would even more dangerous if it's acknowledged as such, even between the Jedi themselves. And yes, it also fits with Eastern teachings.

 

Hey, I just found this, and what a very interesting discussion thread!

As for the current discussion, this is actually something I've thought about a lot. As fanfic writers, we (at least, I know I have this tendency) tend to make all relationsihps more emotional, since that way they make better, more dramatic fanfic, and open up places where we can write more fanfic to "fill in the gaps." When I think about Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan objectivally, though, I think we were shown the two of them in the first movie as kind of an "ideal example" of the Master/Padawan relationship. They have their misunderstandings in the movie, like the one over Qui-Gon training Anakin, but they are able to put that aside, not only for the good of the mission but for the good of both of them. They care about each other, but are also able to put that aside when, say, they both have to do something dangerous for the sake of the mission.

Overall, I would say that theirs is a very close teacher/student relationship, but primarily remains exactly that, though there might be some feelings of a more father/son relationship. Mostly, though, I see those as just feelings, not really acted upon. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are both well-trained and very professional, competent Jedi, and, though I definitely think they care about each other, they also know the demands of their job and position, and don't let that caring become so overly emotional that it would become a threat--I see it as sort of a more distanced affection, balanced between complete icy detachment and the kind of desperate, passionate emotional attachments Anakin was prone to.

 

"Have we done Qui-Gon a disservice by often portraying him from such a fatherly perspective when it comes to Obi-Wan?"

Yes and no. I'll explain.

Yes, sometimes I think we have. TPM certainly showed us a professional relationship, teacher/student or Master/Padawan, and anything that strays too far from that is clearly AU.

However, I can't think of one professional or teacher/student relationship I've had where I'd cry while holding someone dying or where they would pass along to me that which they most want accomplished. And that's where I think the answer is no. What was demonstrated in the scene where Qui-Gon was dying was much more of a father/son relationship. They were alone, and when life was stripped down to its end, the emotions were all that was left. And those emotions revealed another side to the relationship than we saw during other, more controlled moments.

Besides, isn't that the fun of fanfic, to be able to explore other aspects of a character or relationship than we saw in the films? To see what happens when we follow a "What if?" through to its conclusion? Or to rewrite the characters and events according to our own preferences? I don't see any real harm in that. It won't be everyone's flavor, of course, but nothing is.

 

Hmmm. I think Ara-gon sort of pointed out the other side to what I was trying to say. Sort of, that is seems like a professional, student-teacher sort of relationship, but a very close one, and that there seems to be a lot of deep emotions there that would be interesting to explore, especially if they were more hidden behind the professional facade.

But I seem to be having trouble expressing myself today, so I'll just stop there .

 

Lol, that is the joy of writing fanfic. Where does the teacher/student dynamic stop, and where do the father/son overtones begin? Exploring this grey area is what's so exciting. I would imagine that when they're away from the scrutniy of others, they are much more at ease with other (this isn't actually with reference to TPM - it pretty much goes for the later period of Obi-Wan's apprenticeship)

I pretty much cringe (in fanfic) when it's shown that Qui-Gon openly acknowledges that Obi-Wan "is his son", because this is something he would never do. In his actions? Possibly. Even that would be done in a manner that its message is obvious to Obi-Wan, but not so much to others. In times of stress (such as TPM, as Ara-gon pointed out) certain barriers mat be thrown to the wind.

Don't know if I made much sense.

 

I agree with the arguements that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon do not have a father/son relationship. There are aspects of their relationship that are like father/son, since Qui-Gon is a mentor to Obi-Wan. But they are not devoted to each other like family, though they are close.

One thing that distinguishes their relationship from being father/son is that their roles as Jedi comes even before their obligations to each other. Qui-Gon would never, ever sacrifice another person to save Obi-Wan, though I think he would sacrifice himself if he had to.

In a way, I think Qui-Gon did sacrifice himself on Naboo--I think he was really concerned that Maul would Kill Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was clearly no match for Maul as a fighter, but in the end, he turned out to be smarter, just as he was with Anakin later. Qui-Gon thought he could take the Sith by himself. He is a bit of a rebel, and some of that rubbed off on Obi-Wan.

I especially like the point in a much earlier post that Qui-Gon is a rogue when he wants to do the right thing, to uphold his principles. He is not a rebel without a cause at all.

If Qui-Gon had survived to teach Anakin I doubt that even he could have gotten through to Anakin that he needed to let things go. That was always Anakin's problem. He blamed Obi-Wan for holding him back when he couldn't save his mother. But if Qui-Gon were his master, Anakin likely would have blamed him for taking him away from his mother in the first place.

And the only reasonable way that I can see Qui-Gon calling Obi-Wan his 'son' is if they were were on an undercover mission. That could be amusing, if they had to deal with everyone else thinking that.

 

On the current topic about whether we've done a disservice on the father/son aspect of fanfic:

First things first - define father/son relationship!

I've seen father/son relationships where one kills the other (yes I knew someone who killed all of his children). I've seen father/sons who hate each other and try and make the life of the other a living hell or where they couldn't stand each other or where they were indifferent to the other's existance or where they would sacrifice their own life for the other. It runs the gamit of human relationships.

I think you do Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan a disservice to dismiss the father/son aspect too quickly. It all depends on what you mean by it.

Now if you are talking about some mushy, joined-at-the-hip relationship, I would agree that they are not like that. But I see the Jedi as much more passionate than they let on, detachment or not.

If you look at the movies and not the books, I think there are aspects of a warm father/son relationship hiding behind the Jedi mantra.

In TPM, when Qui-Gon says that he would take Anakin as his Padawan, he sends a look to Obi-Wan that is part "asking for forgiveness" and part "understand what I am trying to do". I think he would never have even glanced at someone he only felt was an apprentice, certainly not with that kind of emotion in his eyes. In a subordinate role, the apprentice would have had to accept what the Master said, certainly not berating him later on the way back to Naboo as Obi-Wan did. That Obi-Wan felt he could do that spoke of a more familiar, relaxed relationship that verged on familial.

Indeed, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan seem to have a very warm relationship throughout most of the movie. They joke when not on duty, they rely on each other for backup, they support each other emotionally (well until everything falls apart in the Council chamber). Yes, they work together but it seems to be more than just work.

Of course the final scene with them together and Obi-Wan crying as Qui-Gon dies speaks very strongly of love, not apprenticeship. I know I wouldn't be crying my eyes out if my teacher died. I'd be very sad but not that sad.

But it's more than just TPM.

In AOTC, Anakin tells Obi-Wan that he's like his father. What Obi-Wan says in reply is very telling. He doesn't remind him about detachment. He doesn't say that he's his Master and not his father. Instead he asks why he won't listen to him. That little dialogue is just screaming family to me. How many times my father said the same thing to me? A lot!

And where would Obi-Wan learn about family? Certainly not from Yoda or even Mace. I can only think of the man he had followed around for years - Qui-Gon.

When Obi-Wan is being held prisoner by Dooku and Qui-Gon's name is mentioned, Obi-Wan passionately defends Qui-Gon. Not a simple, monotone about how Qui-Gon would never follow Dooku but a vibrant, heartfelt denial. No diffident apprentice there.

In ROTS, Obi-Wan tells Anakin that he loved him and that he was his brother. Again a family relationship. If Anakin was his brother, then Qui-Gon was certainly his father.

Now, does that mean that they are not Jedi first? Of course not. But don't dismiss the family relationship so easily. It's there.

IMO.

 

You're much better at saying things than I am, dianethx. Then again, you've probably had more practice.

I think your asking for definitions is a very good point to bring up. Partly, I think we've been defining "father-son relationship" as the close, emotional ideal many people might have for such a relationship. But in a society such as that of the Jedi, it's inevitable that people would approach relationships from a different standpoint from the one we're used to, and have different ways of showing their affection.

It kind of reminds me of the stories of Confucius a bit--when Confucius's most worthy disciple Yen Hui died, Confucius reportedly exclaimed, "Alas, Heaven has destroyed me! Heaven has destroyed me!" Also, after this student's death, Confucius reportedly went into extreme mourning, and when his other disciples told him that his grief was too excessive, he answered with something along the lines of "If I don't grieve for this man, who will I grieve for?"

A lot about this story reminds me of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's relationship. It is definitely that of a student/teacher, but there's still a lot of emotion and feeling there, maybe expressed in a different way, even of a different sort, than that we would expect from what we might describe as a "typical" father/son relationship. Even though either of them probably wouldn't sacrifice a mission to ensure the safety or well-being of the other, the other's death would still engender the kind of extreme grief described in the example above, I think. I think the Eastern concept of the master/apprentice, which I'd say the Jedi model was based on, has more room for warmth and affection and closeness than there might be room for in the typical Western view of the student/teacher relationship. There are plenty of stories like the one above about apprentices or masters mourning the other half of that equation. Still, I'd say that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were definitely closer than, as example, the impression I get from Yoda and Dooku. There's a definite warmth between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, but it's a warmth that I personally find very difficult to characterize.

Anyway, I just hope that made sense.

 

wow! wonderful stuff here, guys and you've really got me thinking.
you've all presented different angles on the question that i never would have thought of on my own. this little discussion will definitely go into my thought process the next time i write these two.

as for my own thoughts? i think i personally have played the 'close emotional father/son' thing a little two heavily. i think now that part of the reason i disliked the JA books was because i was looking for something that wasn't there. i'll have to put on a fresh pair of eyes the next time i take a look at those. i'm not saying i'll suddenly like what Jude Watson's written, but i think i may understand a little better why she wrote things the way she did.

 

Thanks, I think.

But there's even more evidence that they might not have sacrificed each other for the mission. I used only the movies because some think of movies as canon only. However, if you take the ROTS novelization as semi-canon, on page 214, Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan are discussing Anakin. Obi-Wan says to Yoda, "Yet if ending this war one week sooner,-one day sooner- were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would." Yoda replies that he would also. But when they talk about Anakin, Obi-Wan says "He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him." And then he says "Because he knows I would do the same for him."

Love, Obi-Wan loves Anakin enough that he would sacrifice the mission to save Anakin. I can only think that perhaps he also learned that from Qui-Gon. But, it's only speculation on my part.

Love these discussions.

 

That was supposed to be a compliment.

These discussions are great, I definitely agree! Actually, that's a very interesting idea. I've read all the novelizations, but I'd never thought about that line in that context before. It certainly throws an interesting spin on things, though you could probably argue it lots of different ways. Definitely making me think here! That's always a good thing!

 

I'm really enjoying this discussion...i've been away so I'm coming in late here...After re-watching TPM recently I found that Qui appeared much cooler (that's not a good word, but it's late and i can't think of any others!) towards Obi than I remembered...I think I'd basically read so much Qui and Obi mush that it had colored my view of their relationship! I like SakuraTsukikage's confucius post...

It seems to me that Obi and Ani had a very different relationship to Obi and Qui...I'm not sure Qui or Obi would have sacrificed a mission to save the other. Though I'm sure they had 'attachments' to each other, being a Jedi came before that...But I'm not sure about Obi and Ani... Obi's closeness to Anakin is what stops him from being able to confront him about Padme (I'm sure that's in the rots novel...or maybe a different one?...The one where Siri dies phaps?)and then you have all the father, brother, i loved you stuff that diane's pointed out. I don't know, i'm rambling...I need a movie showing in detail what went on between Obi and Ani between TPM and AOTC lol

I'll point out again that I'm tired and it's late

 

Just popping in to say that you are all presenting great ideas and I wish Darth School would let up for one minute so I could keep up better. All of the opinions on the Qui/Obi father/son relationship are very interesting. Okay, that was a lame way to put it, but I invoke the same excuse as Kes!

Keep the juicy, thought-provoking discussions coming!

Now, to bed.