Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

Yes, which can still be viewed as a Cold War. It's not like the CIA announced all of its secret revolutionary groups were its catpaws.

Mind you, the JOIN THE RESISTANCE books also state the First Order joined the New Republic.

That strikes me as a mistake but it's canon.

 

The public First Order consists of the Centrists - "former Imperial worlds" that seceded shortly after Bloodline, having "coolly inhabited a wing of Republic politics until tensions reached a breaking point". Though we can safely say that the name "First Order" did not become known to the Republic until shortly after Bloodline - probably with the secession.

The secret First Order consists of the Unknown Regions territories that the Eclipse and the "disappeared Star Destroyers" have been carving out.

The secret First Order can be called "remnants of the imperial military"

The public First Order can be called "Imperial remnant worlds that joined the Republic then left it"

Book 1 talks near the start about the First Order having seceded from the Republic - not about them having joined it. I haven't got Book 2. Exactly what was said?

 

Works for me - Leia is founding the Resistance at the end of Bloodline despite not having ever heard the words "First Order" because she can see what's going on.

The TFA Visual Dictionary is probably what we can blame for the "long Cold War between Republic and Remnant" theory.

Page 8

"The Galactic Concordance defanged the Empire's ability to wage war, with strict disarmament treaties and punishing reparations. The Old Empire withered away, becoming a remnant of political hardliners locked in a cold war with the New Republic, before eventually breaking away to reform in the Unknown Regions as the mysterious First Order."

 

I suppose it depends whether or not Grand Moff Randd joined the First Order or continued to harry the Republic as his forces seemed still ready to continue the fight.

Will Smith here seems quite determined at the end of Lost Stars.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...st/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20170726015925

 

Is that what Randd looks like? Fascinating.

 

He's modelled on Will Smith? The first person I was thinking of was Avery Brooks as Ben Sisko:





though there's probably better fits.

 

I was thinking of Randd's days as an Imperial assassin.

 

Did he ever tell you all about how
His life got flipped-turned upside down?
Well he'd like to take a minute,
Listen you querier:
He'll tell you how he became the Moff of the Exterior.

 

Empire's End and other stories indicate it did not completely die at Jakku.

You're a cornucopia of Star Wars knowledge, Nick. Undeniably.

But fact and interpretive differences aren't the same thing. And I'd say there's a good deal of evidence to at a minimum allow different perspectives on that point.

Sent from my Moto X-Wing

 

We saw Imperial themed militias in STAR WARS: BLOODLINE and the wave of Imperial nostalgia in some quarters while also acknowledging the popularity of the Galactic Empire seems to have been non-existant. Basically, the canon EU takes the view the events depicted in the Special Edition of "celebrations across the galaxy" at face value and it was a loathed tyranny hated by all people not involved in the regime.

Be that as it may, I wouldn't be surprised if there were Imperial Remnants in this universe but they weren't LARGE Imperial Remnants or in any way shape or form capable of putting up the kind of fight which the Legends Empire did.

We could well see someone like Grand Admiral Randd create something like the Pentastar Alignment or the Imperial fortress worlds but no actual Empire, empire, which was gradually forced to collapse by the New Republic.

 

I disagree. The new sources are pretty clear cut that any remnants were absorbed months after Jakku, and that the Empire has been considered long gong by the time of Bloodline. This isn't a case of "different interpretations", but of newer sources overwriting older sources, the same way you can't "interpret" Boba Fett as Jaster Mereel instead of a clone.

No we didn't. We saw ONE militia/terrorist group, the Amaxine warriors. And although it was funded by the First Order and it's leader was a former ISB agent, it definitely wasn't "Imperial Themed". They named themselves after an ancient warrior group that had left the galaxy, and their hangar includes not only TIES, but X, Y, and B wings. Which makes sense, as the whole novel is about Leia discovering that there's some secret shadowy organization with possible Imperial ties, but no one believing her. If the Amaxines were openly parading about in Stromtrooper armor, there would be no conflict, everyone would agree with Leia. (Sure people are parading about in Stormtrooper armor 6 years later, but the FO keeps the bulk of its forces secret).

It's always hard to gauge things like how popular the Rebels/Empire are, since it varies from author to author (and in universe, from world to world, species to species, ect.) And even though the New Canon made the Empire fall much faster, it's also removed clones, removed conscription, and yet kept the Empire's typical overwhelmingly huge military. If anything it implies the Empire was far from "loathed", but hugely popular. (At least with some segments of the population. The fact that Ransolm keeps his Imp nostaglia secret means it's definitely not popular in most of the New Republic 26 years later).

Now I could see future authors retconning the absorption of the Remnants from "months" after Jakku to "years" after Jakku. But only a few. Bloodline doesn't explicitly state that there are no Imperial Remnants, but everyone talks about it like it's long gone, and the Centrist senators take care to hide their Imperial nostalgia. Again, it's a MAJOR part of Bloodline that Leia uncovers this secret threat (she hasn't even heard the name "First Order" yet, and only hints that the Centrists and former Imperials are involved, but she's still spooked), but because of the revelation about her father, she's branded a war monger stuck in the past, and no one except her closest friends believes her. Not to mention that from other sources we know when the FO does make itself known, it still has to hide its larger warships.

If there's still a fascist group with Star Destroyers and Stormtroopers ruling a section of the galaxy at the time of Bloodline (even if it's a small section, and even if they call themselves something like "The Pentastar Allignment", the whole "There's been peace and no sign of the Empire for years, Leia you're crazy if you think the Empire is coming back" plot dosn't make a bit of sense.

 

What I'm thinking is basically the Republic dealing with splinter groups of the Empire more like the Pentastar Alignment, Hegemony, and Zsinj

No one claims to be the Empire anymore but it left a legacy.

And yes, one which is eventually defeated.

I do like there's never any SERIOUS threat to the New Republic from these groups, though.

 

Fair point! I'm not trying to say that there can't be different perspectives, but the evidence against Charles's view continues to dwindle away. We know the following facts, backed up in numerous sources:

1. Empire ceased to exist with the signing of the Galactic Concordance.
2. Some remnants fought on for "weeks and months" per Empire's End, but these are multi-year long battles against remnants.
3. Former Imperial worlds quickly join the New Republic
4. Multiple references to "decades of peace"
5. Over time, these worlds form the core of the Centrist Party, wanting a stronger, more centralized New Republic.
6. The First Order infiltrates the Centrist worlds and exploits their differences with the Populist worlds. This leads to the secession crisis between Bloodline and TFA.
7. At least some Centrist worlds secede, many becoming the public "face" of the newly emerged First Order. The real First Order is still hidden in the Unknown Regions.
8. The New Republic peacefully allows the Centrists to secede, noting that it will allow the government to function better. The chancellor and Senate focus on trade negotiations, galactic infrastructure, and general governance.
9. A cold war begins to emerge as the First Order makes itself know more militarily in Known Space. The Resistance is formed by Leia Organa to watch the FO and protect the Republic.

Again, there is obviously wiggle room (intentionally so, IMO, on the part of the Story Group to avoid tying the hands of the film makers) for some small conflicts. However, all of the evidence points extremely strongly towards any "remnants" of the old Galactic Empire in the Known Galaxy evaporating in short order. I'll add, these aren't even part of the Empire, as that entity legally is dissolved. They are warlords at best, armed with Imperial weapons.

--Adm. Nick

 

My thoughts are they continued to exist in hiding behind the scenes the whole time. Sloane and Hux Sr. (same leadership) heading for the hills (the unknown regions) and built the Empire back up with a clone, I mean child, army.

They were training these child soldiers the whole time, it seems to me.

They seemed to even have NR governing officials secretary working for them for who knows how long.

The Empire officially ended...but they were just rebuilding and then rebranded. Except for the added zealotry, the FO and Empire seem pretty damn similar.

Reminds of the American Civil. It ended. The Union won...but historians argue it just kept going on in different phases...and continues to this day.

Sent from my Moto X-Wing

 

Exactly. Hell, even the New Republic doesn't claim to be the Old Republic. Sure, they consider themselves a spiritual successor in many core regards, but they also accept fully that they are different. Different by design and from inception, I might add, as an attempt to fix many of the issues that plagued the Galactic Republic in it's final centuries.

--Adm. Nick

 

But...the FO developed from people who planned to continue the Empire.

It developed in different ways, but it is still the intentionally rebranded Empire.

My point is the Empire did continue in some form.

This seemed very clearly laid out in Empire's End.

Whether they are a "worthy" continuation of honorable space Nazis... that's a whole different ball of wax.

Sent from my Moto X-Wing

 

To use Legends terminology, the First Order is the Pentastar Alignment combined with the Hand of Thrawn. It's the Empire with the removal of the deliberate "Ming the Merciless" style efficiency designed by Palpatine to keep everyone at each other's throats. They're all drinking the same Kool-Aid and they're all on the same page. They may murder each other and have their disputes but they're all ready and willing to conquer the galaxy for a cause. This is enough to draw a distinct difference from the Empire but share the same fundamental DNA.

Or to use another Disney property:

The Empire is the Nazis under Hitler
The First Order is Hydra under the Red Skull

There's no such thing in canon and that buys a lot of good will from me. I like how Leia reacts to Casteflo's statements like he's babbling gibberish and it turns out, in fact, he was all along.

 

Authorial intent is different from reader interpretation. Kinda of part of the fun of reading.

It's not the Empire, clearly. It's the First Order. But it did develop from ashes of the fallen Empire.

And it is all but the same in appearance, ranking system, and structural story function.

Just because you call a peice of **** something else, it's still just a peice of ****.

Sent from my Moto X-Wing

 

I feel like we're talking more past eachother than to eachother.

I just can't see how anyone can claim the FO didn't develop from what was the Empire.

Tomato, tomaato, I guess.

Sent from my Moto X-Wing