Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

I'm not opposed to the New Republic dealing with different factions. Sure the era between ROTJ and TFA is supposed to be peaceful, but just like the Stark Hyperspace War and the Yinchorri Uprising, you can have smaller conflicts and/or Jedi adventures. But even if they don't call themselves the Empire, even if they're not a serious threat to the New Republic, any sort of Imperial Remnant or splinter group existing around the time of Bloodline just dosn't work.

You mentioned the Pentastar Allignment, the Ciutric Hegemony, and Zsinj. Let's pretend for a moment that one of those groups (or maybe even all 3) are still around during the events of Bloodline. It recontextualizes the whole novel.

When Leia sees Ransolm's collection of Imperial memorabilia, she reacts like . . . well like someone would today if they found Nazi memorabilia in someone's office. (Actually given that she's Alderaanian, she showed remarkable restraint). She's furious with him, but she doesn't report this to security or anything. If there was some sort of Imperial Remnant around that time, she'd be more likely to call him a traitor and turn him in. It's the difference between finding Nazi memorabilia decades after they've fallen, and finding Nazi memorabilia in the middle of a Cold War with said Nazis.

Politics plays a huge role in Bloodline, as does Leia's investigation into shadowy groups and crime syndicates and Centrist worlds funneling money to each other. If there was some sort of Imperial remnant, you'd think there'd be some mention of Centrist senators getting chummy with the Pentastar Alignment or the Amaxines getting money from Zsinj or something.

Finally, the major theme of Bloodline is that when Leia comes across evidence there may be some sort of conspiracy and that Centrist worlds may have Imperial sympathies, no one believes her. This may seem foolish to some readers, but their complacency makes sense. They're in the middle of an era of peace and prosperity, and don't want it to end. Like the Council in Mass Effect was willfully blind to the threat of the Reapers, they're putting their head in the stand. Understandable, but their protests that the Empire is long gone, that this is a glorious peaceful era, and that Leia is a warmonger get pretty hard to swallow if a few sectors away Delak Krennel is stomping on aliens, the Pentastar Alignment controls a vast territory, and Zsinj is holding a parade with Stormtroopers while TIEs and Star Destroyers fill the skies. Sure the NR is blind to the First Order, but that's a recent development. There's willful ignorance, and then there's stupidity.

You might be thinking "Well maybe there were remants that disappeared some time between Empire's End and Bloodline". Let's do some math. Jakku happened 5 ABY. Bloodline occurs 28 ABY. So we've got a good 23 years of peace. Now let's halve that, let's say that 10 years after Jakku there was a small war with the Hegemony. So when Leia starts claiming that the FO is going to stir up trouble, shouldn't people remember the war with the Hegemony and take her seriously? I know the public in Star Wars has a short memory, but come one. The NR's dismissal of Leia as a conspiracy theorist makes less and less sense the more you shorten the era of peace.

 

I think the Legacy novels have trained people to have a somewhat strange sense of scale in terms of dealing with these things. If the Pentastar Alignment did exist in canon and existed as a tiny insignificant fly speck of the Outer Rim territories and Casterfo had some Imperial memorabilia it still wouldn't reflect anything.

Because it's still not "the Empire" but it's a breakaway remnant of it.

It's kind of a noteworthy thing because in the Black Fleet Crisis, Thrawn Trilogy, and a couple of other places--Leia considers the Empire dead and the remnant a bunch of sad deluded fanatics.

The idea the Empire and Republic NEEDED a peace treaty is kind of an invention of Zahns and Andersons because many of those books treat the Empire as dead after Dark Empire.

 

*Casterfo

Though Casterflo would be his rap name if he ever sought a different career.

 

Regarding the speed of the Empire's fall after Endor, my thinking is that it was only short (~1 year) precisely because a significant portion of their fighting strength fled into the Unknown Regions.

 

Still so many unanswered questions. How many worlds in the Unknown Regions? Are all the planets in the Unknown Regions all in favor of the FO or are some fighting against ? Does the Chiss play a Role ? What planet Snoke is from ?
How does Planets from the Unknown Regions feel about FO and NR ? Are Planets from the Unknown Regions even aware of what's going on beyond their Planets ? Do force sensitive Planets exist ?



While Bloodline answered some of our questions, there's plenty of unknown Galaxy to be explored and could have an affect on the upcoming movies.

 

I get the vibe that the Unknown Regions holdings of the First Order are less fully civilized/populated planets and more like colonies. The FO is only a few decades old, I imagine many of their worlds in the Unknown Regions are nothing more than factory planets, shipyards, and colonies for whatever "civilian" population they may have. Plus whatever native species they conquered, as we know that they honed their military strength in part through conflicts there. I frankly hope/prefer that the Chiss have nothing to do with the FO, as the last thing I want it TPTB to have some excuse to bring Thrawn in as a FO leader.

On another note, I was re-reading bits of Life Debt last night and I caught something I had missed before. When discussing getting Mon Mothma to muster the Senate's approval for new military contracts like the Starhawk-class battleships (and I'd assume the Raddus-type heavy cruisers as well), it was noted that they had to agree to scrap some Imperial ships. I'm starting to think that as the New Republic expanded and acquired surplus Imperial ships that the Senate may have put a "cap" on the size of the navy. So when the Mon Calamari offer to start building new Raddus heavy cruisers or the Nadiri Dock Yards offer to build the Starhawks, the only way to get them approved is to scrap a like number of ships/tonnage.

We know that the New Republic captured a few SSD's. I'm starting to think that these were scrapped immediately in favor of constructing new heavy cruisers and battleships. Vessels that were less crew intensive, more modern, and had the added benefit of generating credits for New Republic member worlds.

--Adm. Nick

 

Tig Peramis would probably be happy about that requirement, given his views of Leia in The Black Fleet Crisis.

 

I'm the opposite and my hope is basically when we see the First Order, it's effectively the TOR Sith Empire without the Sith. I'm expecting to see hundreds of dominated worlds and planets which have been brought into their union through alliances as well as military conquest as dominated by the First Order's military. Unlike other people, I don't think the First Order's UK is going to be the "cultural" heart of the FO and that said place will be the Separatist Worlds that will include places like the Tapani, Kuat, and while probably not Coruscant then places very much like it.

Lady Carise as a snooty Imperial noble should be typical of the First Order's elite.

 

Ugh then it will be exactly CivWar2 assuming the NR is out of the motion picture. I was excited for the FO as a guerilla force, something we barely ever saw of Imperials.

 

Yes, well I wanted a slightly more morally ambiguous enemy like the Seppies were promised to be by the opening crawl but weren't.

We can't all have what we want.

 

In all fairness, I remember it being made clear in the Hand of Thrawn books that the Empire needed the peace treaty, but the New Republic didn't. Palleon admitted that the only reason the Empire is still around is that they aren't worth the effort of finishing off, and the plot on the part of the Moffs to prevent the treaty were a bigger threat to the imperial remnant than the New Republic.

(Speaking of said books, it is funny, looking back, that Luke and Mara commented that Thrawn mapped enough resources in the Unknown Regions for the Empire to be able to fund and fuel another war effort - and in the New Canon that is exactly what happened. I wonder if any of the TFA writers read the series...)

 

So, I've been giving a lot of thought to the war strategy of the Alliance. Which becomes the war strategy for the New Republic, hence my discussing it here. In light of the upcoming new run of Star Wars by Marvel which will delve into the losses of the Rebellion between ANH and TESB, I wanted to sketch out a rough outline of what that strategy was and how it in turn affected what the New Republic undertook post-Endor. In a lot of ways, the strategy that ultimately succeeded was less about preparation and more about actions & events, but it is fun to analyze.

4 BBY - 2 BBY
Given that this is the earlier stage of various rebel cells starting to be active and cooperate, I really don't see much of a cohesive strategy other than "resist". Each cell is really more in a survival mode, scrapping by to gather whatever resources the can and opposing the Empire in mostly symbolic actions. We know that some cells compete for scarce resources. This is basically the period right before idealistic Core Worlds senators like Mon Mothma and Bail Organa start connecting with Outer Rim based cells. I suppose it's accurate to say that any "strategy" at this point was simply to find other cells and gauge the ability of them to unite. This is also the period where senators like Mon & Bail realize the chances of a peaceful/political means of bringing down Palpatine are slim.

Strategy = Resist, survive, and connect

2 BBY - 1 BBY
This is the formation of the Alliance to Restore the Republic period. Once the various cells are more or less consolidated, the strategy shifts to building up a military force while still exhausting every last political effort in the Senate. In this "build up" period, the Alliance is focused on gaining ships and gaining new supporters. Mon Cala's resistance joins, donating all their city ships, passenger liners, and exploration cruisers. The Telaris Shipyards are setup and the Alliance starts building up their navy. A formal high command is setup, units are consolidated, and strikes against the Empire become more common place. However, outright major military confrontations are avoided, outside of isolated strikes and/or the actions of more radical Rebels like Saw's Partisans. The Battle of Atollon occurs, which puts the Alliance into a much more defensive mindset. In short, the movement to military action is underway, but the timing & scale of it is still up in the air.

Strategy = Build up forces, avoid direct action, gain allies

1 BBY - 0 BBY
The Alliance continues to grow, both in terms of military strength and it's own political support in the Senate. Saw's Partisans and other radical rebel cells split from the formal Alliance, seeing Mon Mothma's leadership as being too cautious. The fact that a political solution to the crisis is nearly impossible becomes apparent, though Mon Mothma and Bail Organa are committed to show the galaxy that they have truly exhausted all efforts short of war. The main difference between their strategy and Saw's really boils down to timing (later rather than sooner) and methods (formal military conflict vs. insurgent/terror attacks). The discovery of the Death Star and the threat it poses ultimate forces the Alliance's hand to act. Despite fearing that the whole setup is another trap like Atollon, the Alliance commits it's first formal large scale military operation at Scarif. The Senate is dissolved, preventing any chance of a political resolution. Alderaan is destroyed, showing the galaxy the true face of the Empire. All of this culminates in the Battle of Yavin, where the Alliance successfully destroys the first Death Star.

Strategy = Prepare for formal war, ultimate action forced by threat of Death Star*

*I do wonder, if the Death Star wasn't constructed, how might the war of progressed. In a lot of ways, the Empire's actions accelerated the war and the Galaxy's opposition to them. It's an interesting "What If" for sure.

0 BBY - 3 ABY
This is a big chunk of time, one that is still being fleshed out in the new canon. With the victories at Scarif and Yavin and the Empire's actions of disbanding the Senate and destroying Alderaan, the Rebellion grows in size and scope. Yavin Base is evacuated, the growing Rebel Fleet focuses on finding a new main base, and the Alliance is now in direct open war. Based on what we know, the period of up to 1 ABY seems to a time of growth for the Alliance and a time of the Empire grappling with setbacks. Buoyed by their successes, the Alliance launches a large scale campaign in the Mid Rim. The Alliance's military, supporting rebel cells and local armies on Imperial occupied worlds, attempts to gain and hold territory. The hope is that this will lead to a large scale uprising, which would further stretch Imperial forces. Unfortunately for the Alliance, this strategy backfires. The Imperial Navy strikes back hard, reconquering these worlds and putting the Alliance back on the defensive. The Alliance suffers large scale ground losses and it's fleet is forced to scatter. The Death Squadron is formed to track down the main Rebel base. The beaten Rebels retreat back into the Outer Rim, establishing a new main base on Hoth. The base is discovered by the Empire and the Rebel's suffer a major defeat at Hoth.

Strategy = Launch major offensive to start general uprising, followed by scattering into survival mode following major losses in Mid Rim and loss of main base.

3 ABY - 4 ABY
The Alliance is scattered and on the run. The loss of two main bases in three years puts the Rebel's into a more defensive/mobile strategy, with the High Command now based on the Rebel flagship Home One. The Alliance's defensive mentality means that the fleet is scattered again, as the fear of having their main fleet ambushed by the Empire is high. The fleet, in essence, is the Alliance in this period. The revelation of the second Death Star means that the Alliance is forced to forgo developing a new war strategy, instead focus on destroying the new superweapon before it is operational. The threat of this new battle station, coupled by Rebel intelligence learning that the Empire intends to make a demonstration of it's power by destroying Chandrila and Mon Cala, compels the Alliance to risk everything in an all or nothing attack. The full Rebel armada is gathered, culminating in the Battle of Endor.

Strategy = Survive, destroy the second Death Star

In gathering this information, it became really apparent to me that the Alliance was dictated more by reacting to Imperial activities. Their main attempt to develop a proactive strategy failed. The Empire's decision to build the first Death Star united them, the second Death Star ultimately gave them an opportunity to score a massive military & political victory that otherwise would have been impossible. The Alliance would have presumably never been able to develop a military strong enough to oppose the Empire, Palpatine's arrogance and decision to be on the second Death Star was the best gift the Alliance could have asked for.

I'll go more into the NR's strategy later, but I figured I'd start with this!

--Adm. Nick

 

Honestly, I think the Alliance only became an actual threat to the Empire by the events of Empire Strikes Back.

The destruction of Alderaan removing the legitimacy the Empire previously possessed and exposing its horror to the galaxy as a whole. Effectively, the Empire going from, "Those people who are oppressing people in India/The Outer Rim territories to the people who nuked Cardiff/Alderaan." I don't think the Alliance is actually LOSING by Return of the Jedi despite the loss at Hoth because they convinced Sullust, a corporate owned world, to defect to the Alliance openly.

In effect, I think from Hoth to Endor, the Galactic Civil War gets more and more hot.

 

That's not entirely accurate, Chuck. In the NEU, the Alliance is portrayed as being fully on the ropes by the time of Endor. No central base, the fleet scattered, and struggling to survive. Sullust (mainly it's own indigenous resistance, with some support from Rebel troops) were able to throw off the Empire, but it would have only been a matter of time before the Empire struck back. Presumably, by adding Sullust to the list of worlds to be destroyed by the second Death Star. The new canon has a different take on Sullust & it's support of the Alliance, read Battlefront: Twilight Company for more details.

It's not even confirmed in the new canon if Mon Cala was Rebel held. All indications are that it wasn't, given the need for the Telaris Shipyards. The Alliance didn't really have openly Rebel worlds, those that did often did at their own peril.

--Adm. Nick

 

Now, let's give a little thought to the New Republic's strategy. Outside of a few scant references of actual campaigns (Dan Wallace noted in OTFL that there was a Mid Rim campaign and a Coreward push), the final year of the Galactic Civil War doesn't seem to offer enough time to allow for a cohesive war strategy. As happened during the 0-4 ABY period, I think the New Republic was affected by outside events, though this time to their favor. There is ALOT that needs to be crammed into a +/- year period between Endor and Jakku. Side note: I do wish that TPTB pushed Jakku back to like 6-7 ABY, but that ship has sailed.


Phase One = The first three months post-Endor
The New Republic's strategy was more about taking advantage of the situation than any overtly complex military campaign. Consider the following:

• Rapid disintegration of Imperial political and military command
• Warlordism and in-fighting among Imperial officers
• Operation Cinder

These three events are probably the biggest factors that allowed the Rebel Alliance to form the New Republic so quickly. All three had the same net result - pushing the Galaxy into an open state of uprising and Rebellion, while validating the Alliance's purpose. It created the perfect environment for the Alliance to morph from military resistance force into fledging democratic government. Now, I'm gonna give the Alliance credit for one major thing that I am assuming helped them a lot. The blueprint for a civilian government and military force. Sure, they were small, ill equipped, and outnumbered, but I'd like to think that Mon Mothma, Ackbar, and the rest of the Alliance High Command had rough blue prints for the sort of government and military they wanted to build. Which means that for the first 3 months +/- post-Endor, the New Republic's strategy was basically just the following:

• Let the Empire tear itself apart
• Oppose Operation Cinder to gain popular support
• Dispatch ambassadors to key worlds in all regions to petition them to join the new Senate
• Conduct targeted military operations to further disrupt the Empire and speed it's collapse

Opposing Cinder, regardless of whether the terror act was prevented or not, shows the Galaxy that the New Republic is there to protect it. So when New Republic warships start appearing at Naboo, Commenor, Abednedo, and a host of other worlds in their defense, you've basically ensured that membership in the new government is going to expand rapidly. Couple that with direct diplomatic embassies (see what Leia was doing on Naboo prior to Cinder) and it becomes apparent that the main strategy is more political than military. However, we do see that there are some military strikes. They seem concentrated on disrupting Imperial activities at this point, hence why key communication hubs (Malastare) and even some shipyard (Fondor) are hit. The New Republic's military, even if it has started incorporating captured Imperial ships and warships provided by new members, would be stretched opposing Cinder. So phase one (the first three months) are more reactionary than anything else.

Phase Two = months 4 - 6 post-Endor
The mass of new membership allows the New Republic to take on a legitimacy. The ongoing Imperial infighting and disintegration is further accelerated by this, giving the New Republic enough firepower and political capital to re-establish the Senate and setup it's first capital in the very heart of the Core, based on Chandrila. This would presumably have a hugely symbolic affect, but one that also led to tangible results. In short order other Core Worlds like Corellia and Hosnian Prime join the ranks of the Senate, adding to the fledgling government's political and financial capital. The strategy is roughly broken down into three parts:

• Solidify new holdings
• Consolidate newly acquired ships & troops into more formal military units
• Begin formal military campaigns against key targets

This is the period where we see the Mid Rim campaign and Coreward push accelerate. However, this is more about specific targets and less about space control. Uyter is liberated, Arkansis is sieged, and a major military engagement takes place at Kuat. The attack on Kuat Drive Yards and the world's surrender to the New Republic gives the government a huge boost, both in terms of proving that the NR can go toe to toe with the Imperial Navy on a large scale and deprive the Empire of it's main source of Star Destroyers. The Empire's collapse is further accelerated by Gallius Rax executing the Emperor's Contingency. Despite some in the Senate being wary of building up the New Republic Navy, new contracts for large warships like the Starhawk battleships and Raddus-type heavy cruisers go into production.

Phase Three = months 7 - 12 post-Endor
By the time we get to this period, the Empire has begun withdrawing from it's holdings in the Known Galaxy under the orders of Rax. Despite the terror attack on Chandrila, the New Republic gains victories, including some unofficial ones like the liberation of Kashyyyk. The New Republic Navy now outguns the remnants of the Imperial Navy by 3 to 1. The new government's holdings further solidify and expand, Coruscant is isolated to the point of irrelevance, and the Senate begins planning for a post-Imperial era. As we see in Empire's End, by 9 months post-Endor most consider the Empire dead, the coming battle at Jakku being the final nail in it's coffin. The strategy is simply:

• Shore up holdings
• Deploy new warships
• Wait out the Imperial surrender
• Engage the Imperial Navy in one last showdown

As I hope I've demonstrated in this breakdown, the New Republic's overall strategy was more based on events thrown at it and outside forces than any specifically planned campaign. Much different from the old EU, but nonetheless very interesting to chart and watch!

My mind still spins at all this occurring in 12 months, but it is what it is!

--Adm. Nick

 

Question... what do we know about non-NewRepublic governments in the post-ROTJ galaxy so far (besides the First Order)?

I think the list we have so far is...

1. Confederacy of Corporate Systems
(most interesting possibility, in my opinion)

2. New Separatist Union
(likely joins the New Republic after they show the capital will now rotate... the New Republic by time of TFA is basically what the Separatist Idealists dreamed of)

3. Sovereign Latitudes of Maracavanya
(that Pirate nation... maybe an interesting story or two... but they're not sustainable)

4. Corporate Sector
(it's been re-established... not sure what its relationship is with the Confederacy of Corporate Systems, though)

5. the Chiss
(they've been re-established to control a small portion of the Unknown Regions, at least in pre-ANH times, led by the Aristrocra)

6. the Hutts
(we're told their power is significantly weakened)

7. Trans-Hydian Borderlands
(neutral/independent systems that are between the New Republic and presumably the larger chunks of First Order territory)

8. various other independent/neutral systems


Any others?

 

What happened to the Imperial Remnant(s)?

1. Languish and then join the FO?
2. Languish and then join the NR, support the Centrists and then join the FO?

 

From Bloodline, 2 seems more likely.

 

We were actually discussing this earlier in the thread. Although some early sources such as the TFA Visual Dictionary implied it was Option 1, new sources such as Star Wars: Propaganda and Bloodline have given us more details that make it clear it's Option 2.

 

Tusen tag.

Many thanks.

 

DP.

 

We discussed the other governments, namely the New Separatist Union and Confederacy of Corporate Systems, earlier in this thread. They both have a lot of potential, though it would take an author to build a story around them to get us any additional information. Unlike Star Trek, Star Wars has always revolved around either a single galactic hyperpower, dueling supepowers, or opposition to a hyperpower. Star Trek, on the other hand, has a galaxy where the Federation, is the main power, but the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Ferengi, Breen, and a host of other regional powers exist. I'm not saying I want a balkanized galaxy, but having a few other states would give some interesting story potential.

As Ghost said, I suspect that the New Separatist Union dissolved rather quickly. It was probably initially a mix of former Separatist worlds that didn't have strong ties to the Rebellion. However, once the New Republic is established and shows it isn't just a carbon copy of the old, many of these worlds would presumably join. It's not just the fact that the capital isn't on Coruscant. The reformed Senate is directly elected, there is a good balance between federal and member world powers, and in general it is focused on repairing the galaxy's most affected worlds, which would include those that were still suffering from the Clone Wars.

I keep going back and forth as to what the Confederacy of Corporate Systems is. I'm still leaning towards it being composed of the more industrial Separatist worlds, but I see it as being less of a cohesive government and more of a trade union with added powers. I can see the CCS wanting to gain post-war contracts for rebuilding, cooperating with the New Republic in areas that were financially beneficial, and potentially even selling to the First Order later on.

I elaborated on this situation for ETE, link for anyone who is interested: http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2017/...raphic-look-post-galactic-concordance-galaxy/

Switching gears, I've also been thinking about shipyards. Unless it's been retconned since, Lost Stars states that the Empire still possessed more shipyards than the NR. However, at this point (nearly 5 ABY), the New Republic controls the following:

• Mon Cala
• Telaris
• Kuat
• Corellia
• Nadiri

In the new canon, what major shipyards does that leave? Ringo Vinda for sure, Bilbringi as well. Fondor too, though I suspect it falls to the Rebels in Battlefront II. That means that either A) this statement from Lost Stars has been retconned or B) there are a lot of other major yards in the new canon that the Empire controlled.

Honestly, I'm inclined to think it has been retconned (a lot of earlier pre-TFA stuff has things that don't mesh now), but any good retcon incorporates a bit from both conflicting sources!

--Adm. Nick

 

Ah, so no new information on the new powers mentioned in EE yet?

And nothing yet on how the Chiss and the Corporate Sector fit into the new post-ROTJ canon?

What other ideas were you considering for the Corporate Confederacy?