Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

I really hope they retcon this into Ben Solo taking down more experienced members of Luke's Jedi Order (perhaps with the help of Snoke and the 6 other Knights of Ren). Kylo Ren's fearsome reputation would only be bolstered if he brought down some really powerful Jedi. If he and the Knights of Ren took down Jedi on the level of Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade from the Legends New Jedi Order, that would go a long way into explaining why the First Order holds him in such esteem despite having public temper tantrums, etc.

It would also make Luke's shock at the complete collapse of his order more understandable if he had already begun to feel that new Masters were starting to take over, etc at the time of the Jedi massacre. He just wouldn't expect that these powerful Jedi, former students of his, would be defeated so quickly.

 

Re: Kylo Ren

Spoiler

Given the fact that just invoking Vader still terrifies people when he's been dead 20 years suggests the FO are only bigging him up, complete with Vader-style mask, in order to tap that same fear. That he has sufficient Force ability to mimic Vader's powers is even better.

That might be all it is. It doesn't answer why Ben goes along with it, but is, I think, a major part of it all.

 

I guess we just don't know enough to really tell at this point. We don't know when Luke started training his Jedi Order. We don't know how many students he had, how far they got, or if any managed to survive Ben Solo' rampage. All we really know is what Han says in TFA:

"He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible… He walked away from everything."

Based on this, we know that Ben Solo was an apprentice. Can we take this to mean that Ben Solo never became a Jedi Knight? That he turned against Luke while still a Padawan?

 

He turned against Luke when he was an apprentice. Do we know whether or not Luke's Jedi are using the trappings and terminology of the OJO, like Padawan? I hope not. I was saddened by the prequelization of Luke's Jedi Order in Legends. Especially with K'kruhk and T'ra Saa on the council in Legacy.

 

I've gotten the distinct impression, especially from the line about "sending Ben off" being a mistake, that part of why Luke's Jedi "failed" is because he based it too much on the PT-era Order (including its flaws). Hence, perhaps, going to the First Jedi Temple - to find information from before it became so rigidly dogmatic?

 

I hope they do. The Prequel Jedi survived for a thousand years. It took the unparalleled might and cunning of the most powerful Sith Lord in history to take it down. And even then it was a very close thing. Jedi Master Mace Windu was a hairsbreadth away from saving the Jedi Order and the Republic from the Sith. Luke's Order, by contrast is virtually non-existent. We don't know the details yet, but clearly Luke didn't train his Jedi nearly as well as he should have, given that a single apprentice was able to destroy them all. The same apprentice who was defeated in combat by a completely untrained Force-sensitive. Luke had thirty years after the Battle of Endor, and from what we can see, he didn't do very much to rebuild the Jedi Order.

 

I agree for the most part, other than that (for better or worse) when people hear "left" or "right" in our modern world they aren't thinking of prior historical uses for the terms. As for Bloodline:

Spoiler

I'm hoping that we will see the moderates in both parties eventually come to some sort of agreement on what is best for the NR. This is partly what I expect to see in Episode VIII. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the New Republic is in danger if is swings to far to either side of the Centrist/Populist divide. One would turn it into a new empire (or puppet of the FO), the other would make it a weak confederation of worlds unable to defend itself.

We need folks like Leia and Casterfo to find the middle ground. A stronger union, but respect for planets rights. A more powerful chancellor, but one held in check via the Senate. A Defense Force capable to defending it's borders and deterring aggression, but not a massive force capable of being everywhere at one.

Spoiler

--Adm. Nick

 

I don’t know if a single apprentice can take all the credit for destroying the New Jedi Order. I know Han implied that, but it feels like Kylo had help from Snoke and the other Knights of Ren. And we don't yet know the extent of their power.

Sent from my SGH-M919N using Tapatalk

 

I knew everyone who wanted a lot more worldbuilding/politics in TFA would love this book!

On left versus right, with the Populists and the Centrists...

Spoiler: Bloodline Spoilers

In a Leia chapter near the middle of the book, she says:
*left-wing Populist extremists want a direct democracy
*right-wing Populist extremists want to abolish the Senate and return to completely-independent systems
(and that Populists in general are more likely to believe in conspiracy theories involving Centrists, and Populists be accused of baseless speculation)

Then there's Casterfo near the end talking about:
*left-wing Centrists who want to monitor/regulate/control every aspect of every person's life
*right-wing Centrists who want to give each world the defensive firepower to take out a Super Star Destroyer
(and that Centrists in general are more likely to accuse the Populists of baseless speculation, and Centrists be accused of being involved in conspiracy theories)

It's really cool how much the author really fleshed out their politics. From each party, to each party being on a spectrum and each individual Senator having their own pet issues.

As well as how the political process actually works. There were lots of really wonky details I thought people like me would ever be interested in knowing about.




Also, if you took away Casterfo's weird fetish with Imperial collections, and didn't have him being so emotional and manipulated over the Vader issue, you'd have a near-perfect politician for what the New Republic needs.

Even though there did turn out to be a conspiracy theory, involving at least some Centrist Senators... the overall ideology that Casterfo was describing is right. And without the narrator ever saying it, it's clear that Leia has blind spots and is a little irrational dealing with the Centrists. You need a strong leadership position, and a strong military.



It's funny how this is a mirror-opposite of PT politics.

In the PT, you have a Republic that's dysfunctional and corrupt but leaning more Centrist, and then Palpatine taking it to the Centrist extreme. There were Separatists, led by Count Dooku, unsatisfied worlds, and megacorporations, who favored a more Populist approach and created the Confederacy of Independent Systems. The Republic went to war to keep itself united.

In the ST, you have a Republic that's dysfunctional and incompetent, with the system leaning more Populists because of Mon Mothma's reforms pushing it far in the opposite direction of Palpatine's. There are Separatists, led by Lady Carise, who favor a more Centrist approach and create the First Order. The Republic does everything possible to avoid direct war, and let them secede.



Lastly (for now), it seems that "the Elder Houses" idea is new... in that it's a GALACTIC aristocracy now. One with a leadership, who can even kick people out of it.

There's no Naboo aristrocracy.

There's no Alderaan aristocracy.

There's no Kuat aristocracy.

There's no Arkanis aristocracy.

There is only the Galactic aristocracy ... the Elder Houses.

I like the change.

 

Spoiler

Is this meant to explain all the kings and aristocrats we see in the prequels and TCW?

 

What is the current state of people who are not Force Sensitive towards people who are Force Sensitive? Fear? Hatred? Awwwh? Respect?

 

Spoiler: Bloodline spoiler

There's no comment on it. Or rather, no one even spends any time thinking or worrying or interacting with Force-sensitives.

Luke only barely comes up in the Senate, after the Vader=Father revelation, when Senators begin to fear Luke could become a new Vader. They do say that Luke has lived a life of a private citizen since Endor, out of the spotlight. So it's an "out of sight, out of mind" attitude.

Seems like Luke didn't want his new Jedi to have anything to do with the Republic, at least at first. I don't want to assume too much, but outside of Ben, I don't think anyone knew Luke was training new Jedi.

 

This gives me an idea for the 4th trilogy. Except for the Mandalorians and the Hutts, almost every galaxy wide war has been started by Force Sensitives.

An anti-Force group rises to power. Taking a similar plot from X-men, Force Sensitives get rounded up/hunted down. Dark Side or Light don't matter.

It will make a good story. Force users against mundanes.

 

Oh ca-mon!

 

Rey didn't defeat Kylo Ren.

Legendary War Hero and Greatest Warrior Who Ever Lived CandidateTM Chewbacca the Great, Moonslayer and Arm-Ripper defeated Kylo Ren with the help of a Stormtrooper plus a untrained force sensitive.

 

You are comparing apples with oranges. After ROTJ Luke was the only Jedi left and we can only guess how much his training went beyond "knowing, what was necessary". We have no idea how the Prequel Jedi started out in the New Canon and if we go with Legends there was still a more or less intact order after the Battle of Ruusan (see Darth Bane-novels). They certainly didn't start from zero. It is also ironic, that those more rigid and doctrine-orientated Jedi, that survived the desaster, that were Kaan and his Brotherhood of Darkness were the ones, that enabled him to come to power, while the more independant-minded Jedi like Hoth died in the fights. The Sith also forgo a direct attack on the Jedi in the years following Ruusan. But no matter how you look at it, the Jedi of Luke's New Order were in a much weaker and more vulnerable position against one of their own turning dark than the Prequel-Jedi.

Also Mace Windu might have almost defeated Palpatine, but that was either because Palpatine was playing with him (and never in any danger) or because Palpatine was overconfident (in which case Mace being able to defeat the Sith would have been dumb luck). Mace certainly wouldn't have been in a position to fight Palpatine, if the later hadn't revelaed himself to Anakin. And even if, striking down Palpatine might have become a victory for the Jedi, but probably not for freedom and democracy. Mace and the Jedi-Council were willing to take over the Republic and the Senate even before the knew, that Palpatine was a Sith.
We also know Mace was drawing on the Dark Side of the Force in his fight with Palpatine and if he had stroken him down he might have fallen completely. "Strike me down and you have completed your journey to the Dark Side." If Mace had won the Republic might have evaded a dictatorship by the Sith only to fall to a dictactorship of the Jedi. No matter what the Dark Side would have won.

 

Darth Basin And I assume that, in a magnificent plot twist, the masked leader of the mundane activists is in fact a powerful Force-user (and his face isn't scarred after all)!

 

My opinion is Mace Windu STALEMATED Palpatine due to Vaapad allowing him to reflect Palpatine's Dark Side power back at him in a way which Yoda couldn't.

Mace wasn't going to get any close, though, so he needed Anakin to strike while Palpatine was prone.

Had Anakin done so, Palpatine would have been done.

 

I would say that it depend on the people and the group of Force sensitives. There are many groups of people out there and canon at least five group who train Force sensitives.