Lit From Endor to Jakku - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Empire's End Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22, Sep 6, 2015.

  1. JediBatman Jedi Knight

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    May 3, 2015
    star 2
    @Charlemagne19

    True, for some reason the First Order just doesn't register to me as the Imperial Remnant, even though consciously I know that's basically the role they serve.

    I guess there's a couple factors that could be responsible for that mental disconnect: being so used to how it went in Legends, the desire to "pad out" the Galactic Civil War era, or to fill it with more epic large scale battles, or even just the fact that the Empire collapsing into warlord-ism is thematic in a "when Batman and Superman team up nothing can stop them, while when Lex Luthor and the Joker team up they fall to infighting and backstabbing" sort of way.
    Last edited by JediBatman, Mar 19, 2017
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  2. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Which is why I like it. They acknowledge the Emperor is dead and it's a new French Republic. OF EVIL.

    @JediBatman

    For me, I think there's a benefit which helps the matter and that's the fact Luke, Han, and Leia don't just spend the rest of their lives living like comic book heroes from one crisis to another. They get to enjoy at least a reasonable period of peace and having seen their actions have a positive effect on the galaxy. It also makes the Galactic Empire seem less like some sort of uber-Japanese bushido society that everyone would want to defend to their dying breath. Here, the galaxy rejected the Empire for the most part.

    Centralists aside.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Mar 19, 2017
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  3. godisawesome Jedi Master

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    When I hear "Imperial Remant", I think of Thrawn and Paelleon, who definitely seem like they'd fit in with Rae Sloane as the incredibly misguided but well-intentioned authoritarian military dictatorship. But the First Order really doesn't compute with that idea to me; they're very much the Deep Core Dark Empire, like you said, a fanatical cutthroat regime far more like the despots that even Daala seemed to think we're crazy. So the question becomes: how did a Sloane-lead secular Imperial military that she promised to "get right this time" become the Supreme Leader worshipping terrorist state with an evil ginger foaming at the mouth in charge of their military?

    Just a thought, but would it be fun to see the First Order experience a Civil War when Snoke takes it over, wherein we get to cheer for our tragically doomed sane and competent Imperials that make Jello squeel like a schoolgirl taking on the future version of their organization? Little Armitage Hux somehow has to become the main military leader by TFA. Maybe those people he stepped on or back stabbed to reach his position include Sloane? Maybe even... Thrawne?
    The warlordism was always a pretty cool side story that apparently survived a little as part of the Empire's collapse post-Endor in the NEU, but is now so short, that any story lien featuring it is going to feel abridged. Another reason to maybe hope Imperial infighting carried on into the Unknown Regions, maybe even involving the Chiss. Although, there were a few old Legends groups that I could see being reformatted into nominally non-Imperial threats in New Republic era, guys who can cause enough trouble that some planets can have justified Centrist sentiments.

    I mean, maybe you could make some new groups based off the Pentastar Allignment or Zsinj's Empire, or maybe even incorporate them into those new Separatist groups? We know there's arms treaties and that the New Republic has the largest fleet in the Galaxy while still having one smaller than the OR and GE, but the Pentastar Alignment's whole schtick was being an isolationist despotate willing to outwardly follow the rules, and half of Zsinj's appeal was his deviousness and willingness to use different weapons and armor designs while being a corrupt corporate executive even outside his own boundaries. Maybe you could make a new Pentastar Alignment, cast as an Imperial spinoff from before Jakku willing to negotiate a seperate peace and scaling back their capital ships to Venators and Victorys (Tarkin brought the latter back) with Imperial Army armor instead of Stormtroopers? Or have Zsinj be part of the Confederacy of Corporate Systems, seeking to quietly and sneakily de-legitimize the New Republic's hegemony and construct and Anti-Republic power bloc, with Raptors instead of Stormtroopers?
    Last edited by godisawesome, Mar 19, 2017
  4. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    There is the issue that any Imperial warlords are going to come off as Legends rehashes versus something new, though. Also, the fact that enough ex-Imperials need to join the New Republic that they are able to bring half the galaxy into the FO. In this reality, I can't help but think of Grand Moff Kaine's equivalent as a New Republic Senator.

    Well, I imagine isolating their children and raising them as fanatics certainly didn't help. I do hope the idea that Supreme Leader Snoke was a friend of the Solo family and the galaxy as a whole is something we see, though.

    I also see something like the Taliban happening with the FO since they're meant to be Imperial ISIS versus the Empire of old. Basically, the Empire left all their children with Hux and they were raised to be super-fanatics who eventually had nothing in common with their parents while their parents were off fighting (The Yuuzhan Vong?).
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Mar 19, 2017
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  5. Darth Basin Jedi Master

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    Aug 15, 2015
    star 5
    I would like to see some sort of Imperial Civil War post Galactic Concordance. On one side you have an Imperial Junta similar to Burma. On the other side you have the Dark Side & Snoke worshipers similar to N. Korea.
  6. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    But there is no Empire after EE. Just some ships in the Unknown Regions.
  7. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
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    In addition to dismissing the FO as the Imperial Remnant, there's also saying "just some ships in the Unknown Regions" when it's an entire massive force which includes all of Grand Admiral Thrawn's work as confirmed by "Thrawn."

    In effect, it's the canon Hand of Thrawn.

    Which is the basis for the First Order's massive planet grab post Bloodline.

    The FO isn't North Korea, it's the Soviet Union.
  8. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 7
    I was responding to there being a civil war in the Empire after Jakku. There's no Empire left in the known galaxy, or cult of Snoke worshippers big enough to be a faction. There's just the remnants of their navy in the Unknown Regions.

    And I didn't know that Thrawn was out yet? The thread title says Spring 2017.

    Also it's seceding Centrists that join the First Order... not some landgrab from the First Order... after Bloodline. The Republic, and probably most of the people living on the seceded Centrist worlds, don't know about the extent to which that group of ships colonized the Unknown Regions. And we don't yet either. But I doubt it was enough to have a civil war over so soon after Jakku.
    Last edited by Ghost, Mar 19, 2017
  9. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Thrawn isn't out until April 11. As far as I know, nobody should have a copy yet.
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  10. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    Jul 30, 2000
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    Well, I read in a release it talked about Thrawn would have it confirmed he had his UR work canonized.

    It's second hand and I am wrong for mentioning it.

    my bad.
  11. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Anyway, known Imperial remnants after Empire's End but before Bloodline are:

    -- the Imperial government on Coruscant
    -- Imperial holdouts which did not acknowledge the Galactic Concordance
    -- the fleets which fled to the Unknown Region

    None of these can really be called the Empire.

    The one with the best claim to legitimacy is the government on Coruscant, being that it's the Imperial capital and it's run by the Imperial regent. However, the Imperial government as such was dissolved by the Concordance -- Amedda's government on Coruscant, though likely composed of the Imperial bureaucracy, is limited to a single planet. At some point, Coruscant transitions to a New Republic world, complete with two Centrist senators. Its status during the First Order is unknown.

    Imperial holdouts which reject the Concordance can't be called the Empire either -- essentially, they're scattered fortress worlds who disobeyed orders from Coruscant. They're annexed by the New Republic in waves. Presumably, these are the same "former Imperial" worlds which are punished with reparations by the New Republic and secede to form the First Order after Bloodline. (Whether Coruscant also pays reparations and or secedes is unclear, as I said). But we don't know any of this for certain -- we can just guess based on knitting together various sources.

    Finally, there's the fleets in the Unknown Regions ordered by Rax and possibly taken over by SLOANE for a time. These are the nucleus of what becomes the First Order's true power base, though we don't know when or how this transition occurs. But we know that the children are raised with a skewed, extremist version of history. These definitely cannot be called the Empire: it's an old Legends-style Warlord fleet -- and when it turns into the First Order, it distinguishes itself from the Old Empire.
  12. Darth Basin Jedi Master

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    Aug 15, 2015
    star 5
    Didn't "The Empire" in what ever form it became was forced to leave Coruscant because of the Concordance?
  13. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    No. Coruscant is the only thing the Empire has left -- it's the Imperial capital, ruled by the Grand Vizier.
  14. Havoc123 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2013
    star 3
    While I'm not a fan of the nu-canon, with the lack of a post-Concordance Empire existing outside of the First Order, I accept that they're trying something new. To me, the Nu-Canon and old Legends diverge way back before Episode 1. We'll see how they handle that for me to make my head...nu-canon/legends multiverse?.. explanation fit.

    Though I'll give them that by the Concordance leaving Coruscant in the hands of Amedda's government, they're acknowledging that the Empire is still the true successor to the Old Republic.
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  15. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    I think so -- and certainly not using Coruscant as the NR's own seat in their bid to win former Separatists over only underlines that notion. The NR knows that it isn't the Old Republic, as much as some might posture that it does.

    Also, the interesting thing about there being no Empire post-Concordance... the databank's First Order entry still refers to a "rump Empire" separate from the FO, just as the Visual Dictionary for TFA did. I can't help but wonder if their ideas changed between 2015 and 2016? The only thing that fits the definition of a rump Empire is Coruscant itself, and yet that's still not really consistent with the Databank.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Mar 19, 2017
  16. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Well....

    1. Even still, though the Empire’s death comprises a thousand cuts, only one thing makes it official: The signing of a cease-fire, one that accords both the end of combat and the full, unconditional surrender of the Galactic Empire.

    2. The Empire is surrendered with minimal concession. The Instrument of Surrender informing the Galactic Concordance demands not only that all fighting cease on behalf of the Empire, but also that the Imperial government dissolve immediately. After which Mon Mothma signs a further declaration denoting that all still-living Imperial officials are now categorized as war criminals. Non-combatant functionaries within the Imperial government are given conditional pardons, provided they continue to act by the articles of the Galactic Concordance. Mas Amedda, in return, escapes without such formal censure, though certainly the stigma never leaves him. The media and the history books both brand him as a toady and a lackey and one of the willing—if weak—architects of the Empire. Even still, he is granted a provisional (and powerless) government on Coruscant, left with New Republic overseers who help confirm that he remains as little more than a figurehead, continuing his toothless rule over a troubled world.

    3. Not only has Empire’s gauntleted fist let go of the galaxy’s neck—it is gone entirely. The oppression is at an end and so the celebrations go for weeks. Fireworks on Chandrila. Festivals of food on Nakadia. Nonstop parties in the streets and on the rooftops of Coruscant. And this time, the Empire isn’t there to stop it. They do not police these carnivals and festivities. No troopers show up to fire upon the parades or execute protestors. It’s just one more sign that the Empire is well and truly gone.

    I think Mas Amedda gets Coruscant but not the Empire. There is no rump Empire in this new official version of history. It is "officially" dissolved akin to the Nazi Regime.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Mar 19, 2017
  17. DarthPhilosopher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2011
    star 4
    This whole 'the Empire is the Old Republic' is quite amusing. The situation here is not unlike France. There is France (the idea of 'Galactic Government'). There is the Third Republic (Old Republic). There is Vichy France (The Empire). There is Free France/government-in-exile (The Rebellion). There is the Fourth Republic (The New Republic). The Empire is no more the Old Republic than the New Republic is. The idea that the Empire is somehow more legitimate than the New Republic, or that the New Republic is somehow something 'else' is silly.

    Regarding Mas Amedda and the remnant of the Empire - the Empire was dissolved with the Concordance. He controls what could be called the 'Corsucant state', which eventually becomes constituent part of the New Republic, which only has a relationship to the destroyed Empire because the bureaucracy is transferred over.
  18. Havoc123 Jedi Knight

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    Maybe we could have a rump 'Galactic Empire' that consists of solely Coruscant much like very late era Byzantium being stuck to Constantinople? This 'Galactic Empire' then ends up a member of the New Republic as after all, each of the individual worlds probably have official 'Republic of', 'Kingdom of' names for their actual government.

    As for the Empire being evil Nazis/Vichy, the transition is a lot more like the Roman Republic to the Empire. In Legends there was effectively no difference from the early era Republic, taking Pius Dea and the colonization era before it into account, and Palpatine's Empire.. other than the Emperor title added on top. Again, this may be different in Nu-Canon. We only know of how the Old Republic is from the Prequels. In Legends, it wasn't always such a confederated alliance of worlds type entity, we don't know how its going to be like in nu-canon so who knows, maybe the Empire's quick fall will make more sense depending on what the Old Republic actually was.
  19. Darth Basin Jedi Master

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    Aug 15, 2015
    star 5
    Well this becomes interesting. I like the Coruscant as Constantinople. Only this time say around 300 ABY Coruscant becomes very powerful and they start reclaiming "once that was rightfully ours".

    A New Empire.
  20. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    That's kind of the First Order's thing. :) Seriously, people really don't want to give those people any credit whatsoever even though they're already more successful than most Imperial Remnant states.
  21. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    No, I agree: Empire's End is very clear that the Galactic Empire AS SUCH is dissolved. However, older references (for some reason) refer to a rump Empire. Either that's just wrong, or... bad wording.

    The Amedda Coruscant government is composed of the former Imperial government. That's the closest thing there is to a rump Empire or legitimate Imperial state.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
  22. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    Interestingly enough, I think of leaving Coruscant in the hands of the Imperial Bureaucracy as the first real big change in New Republic policy as well as a sign of the Rebellion unwittingly betraying themselves. Coruscant's population celebrated the death of the Emperor like everyone else and then they're left in the hands of a petty dictator and his soldiers. I wonder how many other worlds were treated that way (the GC gives a conditional pardon to all non-military Imperial officials--does this include Regional Governors?) and how that contributed to the Centralist position. Certainly, there's a staggering number of ex-Space Nazis in government if the "Imperial nostalgia" of Bloodline parties are any indication.

    Maybe the Rebellion should have done a De-Imperialification system.
  23. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    It may be a case of them changing things as they go along.

    TFA The Visual Dictionary

    (p8):

    The Galactic Concordance defanged the Empire's ability to wage war, becoming a remnant of political hardliners locked in a cold war with the New Republic, before eventually breaking away to reform in the Unknown Regions as the mysterious First Order.

    The Star Wars Propaganda preview here:

    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...ory-of-persuasive-art-in-the-galaxy.50037735/

    mentions former Imperials "coolly inhabiting a wing of New Republic politics".

    The Galactic Concordance, the peace treaty that brought an end to hostiles, was at last signed after the last remnants of the Imperial Fleet vanished following the Battle of Jakku. Former Imperial Governors were invited into the New Republic, though many of them bore the weight of crushing reparations ....Over time, the former Imperials reunited as the First Order and coolly inhabited a wing of Republic politics until tensions reached a breaking point. The First Order seceded from the New Republic, a move that was welcomed by many in the galactic capitol.
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  24. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    Jul 30, 2000
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    Well, it's true.

    From a certain point of view.
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  25. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Yes, I said that I thought there may have been a story change OOU. But we still have to decide how to interpret the text we have.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.