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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Sep 6, 2015.

  1. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    No, that was the LAST DAY OF THE REPUBLIC.

    :)
     
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  2. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    But . . . that was the point of the Death Star. It's patently obvious Tarkin doesn't really care about the location of the Rebel base, he doesn't really care about materially defeating the Rebellion whatsoever. He was making a demonstration, trying to instill fear into the Galaxy at large. That's why he didn't go to Dantooine, and why he blew up Alderaan. It's collective punishment on an enormous scale.

    And, like, Tarkin isn't that subtle in the fact that he's basically plotting a coup, either.
     
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  3. Grand Admiral Paxis

    Grand Admiral Paxis Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    By what standard, moral or legal, is it "perfectly all right" to destroy enemy planets in war? That's like saying that it's completely above-board to nuke every square inch of an enemy country's landmass, provided that you follow the legal process of making a declaration of war. I get that you're trying to frame it in a PR perspective rather than a legal or moral one, but the indiscriminate mass slaughter of civilians who just so happen to share a geographical position with the legitimate military targets you're at war with can't really be spun to improve a "bad reputation," regardless of how you try to frame the optics of it. A declaration of war, even one enacted via a legitimate legal process for justifiable reasons, doesn't actually grant you carte blanche to do whatever you want.

    On a side note, to chase that legal thread further (even though I know that's not the point you were making), with or without a formal declaration, both the Destruction of Alderaan and the Hosnian Cataclysm both constitute "planning, initiating, and waging a war of aggression" under real-world international law, and I imagine whatever galactic legal framework the New Republic imposed would have a similar provision. I've always found it a real shame that the prosecution of Imperial war criminals never really got fleshed out that much. We hear about it in both continuities, and some figures who were prosecuted got named, but the really detail of the process was never fleshed out. I would have loved to have seen a Star Wars equivalent of the Nuremberg Trials with senior Imperial political and military figures.
     
  4. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    And, for the Empire at least, you can't really declare war anyway. That recognizes the Rebellion as a fellow state actor, which, obviously, the Empire would never ever do.
     
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  5. MartyAvidianus

    MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    May 14, 2017
    Grand Admiral Paxis.

    in real life, Clausewitz disagrees. I was talking about military installations or even maybe so called "civilian factories" which in fact manufacture military matériel. But you are generally right in the sense you cannot kill indiscriminately even in war. However, you must do whatever you are able to win, otherwise whatever you did in the war, even if you didn't commit any war crime, some kind of nuremberg is waiting for you.

    ,,,,

    For the empire, I guess you can't declare war, in the sense that it doesn't matter. (I really don't understand why GFFA names such as Rebellions and Resistance). I mean, you name your organization Rebellion, you rebel against the de jure government. What did you think would happen? If not a death star coming to destroy you, what about Han's It would take 1000 starships with more fire power.... it's not like the empire doesn't have that 1000 starship fleet at that time.
    now as for the argument that alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons. uh your king is a known or at least subtle supporter of the rebellion?

    For the FO, I don't know why Hux or Snoke didn't declare war first.
     
  6. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Tarkin rose from his chair so he could bow from the waist in frank obedience. “I will not fail you.” When he looked up, he saw that the Emperor was leaning forward in his chair.

    “It will be a momentous responsibility,” the Emperor said, drawing out the words. “For once the battle station is fully operational, you will wield the ultimate power in the galaxy.”

    Tarkin’s gaze moved from the Emperor to Vader and back again. “I don’t believe that will ever be the case, my lord.”
     
  7. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Under exceptional circumstances even Luke will sometimes do it.

     
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  8. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    To quote Jason Fry...
     
  9. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    It was Legends canon that Vader was there to remind Tarkin that the Emperor was watching him and to also serve as a check on his power base. The thing is, I fully believe there's a unseen scene where Tarkin alludes to treason against the Emperor, only for Vader to give a dismissive shrug.

    Vader's loyalty, if such a thing exists, is only limited to the Empire itself and just barely.

    I have no doubt that Palpatine would smack down Tarkin's coup and Vader would clean up the mess with the bare minimum of effort. Palpatine would then reward Vader for his "loyalty" by giving him a higher position in the Empire. If, on the off chance Tarkin succeeded then Vader would be Sith Master and eliminate Tarkin to take over the Empire.

    Because that's how Sith roll.
     
  10. MartyAvidianus

    MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    May 14, 2017
    Tarkin: You may fire when ready.

    Guys in the control room in weird black helmets: No.
     
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  11. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    It's not that hard to suborn a military against a bureaucracy. The Kaiserreich comes to mind, as does the fall of Imperial Russia, and and, like, Napoleon.
     
  12. MartyAvidianus

    MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    May 14, 2017
    you use imperial russia and napoleon in the same sentence to get your point across. But anyway I'll give you that barely. However, Kaiserreich?
    How was the situation in world war 1 Germany help your point? If anything, the bureaucracy suborned the military.
     
  13. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 5, 2017
    The military installed a dictatorship about three quarters of the way through the war, stripping the Kaiser and the ministers of titles and positions to put their own men in charge. Hindenburg and Ludendorff dictated policy.
     
  14. MartyAvidianus

    MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan star 3

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    May 14, 2017
    So I guess Hindenburg and Ludendorff wanted to get rid of the Kaiser and autocracy in Germany gone after the war was lost?

    these guys must have been great champions of the people. pioneers of democracy!
     
  15. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Yeah I remember all this, it was discussion in one of my old threads about who could pull off a coup against Palpatine.

    Tarkin would have no chance to pull a coup against Darth Sidious, Death Star or no Death Star. If he showed up at Coruscant with a planet-killer his entire crew would mutiny.
     
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  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Ludendorff is one of those early 20th century guys who reminds you, "You know, as bad as the monarchs were, the guys who wanted to replace them included many people who were objectively worse. Monarchs believed they were given power by God, Fascists believed it was righteous to beat it out of people."

    He's like his opposite number in Petain in that I just find it STRANGE how such high ranking decorated military leaders can be fanboys of....that guy.
     
  17. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    I'm not sure what you think I'm claiming. I'm saying that it's relatively easy to inflame a military against a bureaucracy by showing times it happened, historically. All I'm claiming re: the Kaiserreich is that during the war High Command led a de facto coup against the Kaiser's government, which is the accepted history.
     
  18. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    There's no way Tarkin would make a move against Coruscant unless he was clear about the loyalty of all the men he needed to pull off his coup.

    What hidden assets, if any, the Emperor had in play were another story. There's also no way Palpatine would not have accounted for treason.
     
  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Mind you, he didn't need to move against Coruscant itself.

    Just draw Palpatine off it somehow.

    From there, the Death Star itself would be the center of galactic civilization.

    Destroying Alderaan proved nowhere was safe, Coruscant included. Alderaan was one of the founders of the Republic. If not nuking New York City, it was nuking Massachusetts.
     
  20. MartyAvidianus

    MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan star 3

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    May 14, 2017
    to a degree I don't disagree with you that it's not that hard to use military to suborn anything.

    I'm just saying your example of using kaiserreich and imperial russia is no good. As far as I know, Napoleon was the only one who actually qualified a bit with military suborn bureaucracy, but not really. Napoleon only used his reputation as a military genius to let the french masses to accept his own napoleonic code. (constitution). He didn't actually marched against his own people.
    imperial russia. The masses of russian proletariats had enough of autocracy and overthrew the tsar, bringing about new government(s). I'm not sure why you used imperial russia as an example unless you are saying the autocrat of all russias is a bureaucracy. In my opinion in the case of russia it's military suborned military.
    re: kaiserreich, the Kaiser Wilhelm II's abdication was not a plan of Luddendorff's. again, it's a case of military (Entente) suborning military (Germany and her allies)
     
  21. comradepitrovsky

    comradepitrovsky Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2017
    The soldiers revolted with the masses against Nicky's regime, and the ministers as a part of it. I.E, the bureaucracy.

    I'm not talking about the abdication. I'm talking about the Third OHL's assumption of power in 1916.
     
  22. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Napoleon's coup would have failed if not for the support of Lucien Bonaparte (in his capacity as president of the Council of 500), Sieyes, and Talleyrand. The latter two pulled the strings, the former exercised political controls. Napoleon actually fumbled Brumaire badly and overestimated his influence.

    Napoleon's success came after he gained the reins of power -- he was a much better politician than plotter, and outmaneuvered his fellow consuls.
     
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  23. MartyAvidianus

    MartyAvidianus Jedi Padawan star 3

    Registered:
    May 14, 2017
    ITAVEROIMPERATOR
     
  24. blackmyron

    blackmyron Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2005
    In Legends, that's pretty much what happened.
     
  25. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Death Star has an AFFECT on me.

    I need to do a Goodreads which explains my reaction.

    [​IMG]
     
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