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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Sep 6, 2015.

  1. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    OOU, I totally agree. And even IU. However, I do understand why IU a lot of people would fear a strong central government post-Empire. Life Debt and Bloodline does a great job showing this. The galactic populace swung to far in the other direction. Like in all things, there is a solid middle ground. We see it in the form of Leia & Casterfo's views on government.

    GrandAdmiralJello

    Coruscant needs to campaign to get the capital back. They've got the most iconic building in the galaxy, the Senate Rotunda. They need to be putting together a PR campaign that ties the restoration of the Republic to the restoration of the historical galactic capital. :p

    --Adm. Nick
     
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  2. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Agreed. Hearken back to the history and values of the Old Republic -- the early republic, that is. History can be inspirational and it can help with the soft power of values.

    I understand wanting to start new, but there's tremendous value in tradition and legitimacy in terms of keeping things together.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
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  3. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 28, 2003
    Yeah, founding a new government with more democratic & egalitarian values doesn't mean that you don't want ties to the past, especially if that past is the golden age of the Old Republic. Promoting the best of the past while touting the improvement of the new together is a powerful message.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  4. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Unfortunately, they both seem out of step with their respective parties.

    And I suppose I understand the fear (especially since the fear that "Centrists" = "Empire" turns out to be well-justified). It's just that running back as quickly as possible towards the Episode I era Republic feels like the equivalent of saying "we don't like Nazism, so let's go back to the days of economic depression and political gridlock." As if that were sustainable and as if it wasn't what set the stage for what happened next.
     
  5. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    But that's not. The current NR is the extreme opposite from the OR/Empire. But surely there's a middle ground?


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  6. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    From the pre-Palpatine OR? No, I don't think it is. I think it's returning to the sort of decentralized and demilitarized mess that we saw in Episode I. Not all the way back to that, but still too uncomfortably close to it for my tastes.
     
  7. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006

    The problem with keeping all your apples in the one basket is what led the Yuuzhan Vong and the Lost Tribe exploiting the leadership of the galactic governments. Once Coruscant fell, the New Republic (already trying to shift the blame of who started the war from the actual enemy to the Jedi) fractured and commanders pretty much told politicians to stick it up their backsides and let them actually run the war.

    The reliance on a single world for a capital will always be its downfall. And Coruscant got boring throughout later parts of the old EU anyway.

    Who knows with Episode VIII, maybe not all of the New Republic government was lost at Hosnian and depending what roles Benicio and Laura Dern are playing, it could be possible that even the weakest chancellor might have seen it as a good idea not to have the entire Senate and Ministries on the same planet. (Mon Mothma might even have started a trend of keeping the Defence Ministry on Mon Cala, the Agricultural Ministry on Chandrila, the SELCORE in the Alderaan system and the Diplomatic Office on Naboo).
     
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  8. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Absolutely not. They're stubbornly egalitarian (BL) and the VD notes that Leia's princess status no longer counts for much, as it would have under the previous republic.

    It's intolerable. They could use a little Old Republic opulence. They're abandoning the best parts and only adopting the worst!

    What, having a distributed bureaucracy? That's a terrible notion. How would anything get done?
     
  9. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 14, 2006

    HoloNet.
     
  10. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Liable to disruption, and not always effective besides.
     
  11. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    This is the New Republic. Getting nothing done is kind of its motto.
     
  12. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 28, 2003
    If by nothing you mean liberating worlds, restoring the Senate (democratically elected no less!), instituting demilitarization in an over militarized Galaxy, and defeating the Galactic Empire only a year after Endor, you're correct. ;)

    They also maintained the peace for a whole generation, to the point that folks got too complacent due to these successes.

    The New Republic was successful, it unfortunately started taking these for granted. We'll learn in VII and IX if the New Republic can turn things around!

    --Adm. Nick
     
  13. Nobody145

    Nobody145 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2007
    Its kind of a depressing idea, that once the war veterans retire their successors are idiots who don't realize what needs to be done. That idea was present in the old EU too, and given how the new one is shaping up... We won't know for sure until the Aftermath trilogy is complete, but I expect the Rebel Alliance did a great job of forcing the Empire back, then the Empire decided to rebuild its strength in secret and the New Republic declared victory. But we'll see how Jakku actually plays out. Ciena was there, but she was only a minor captain, so she wouldn't know about any of the big plans (and that kind of plotting disgusts her anyway).

    TFA of course did an awful job making us care that Hosnian Prime got blown up. They didn't even bother to name Leia's aide who was sent there to plead with the Senate. Too much of the canon New Republic seems focused on forgetting the past ss soon as possible. Moving the capital to Hosnian Prime seems like a nice gesture, but Aftermath already has Mon Mothma scuttling the navy as soon as possible. Its even worse when we hear in Bloodlines that only Mon Mothma's personal charisma and skill kept the system working for a few years, and after she retired, the system ground to a halt...and that was fine with most people. The Populists are fine with stagnant government as its not a threat, and the Centrists were waiting for the First Order to return.

    From Carise's comments, she probably thought the First Order would announce itself to the galaxy with a show of force, like Star Destroyers invading and conquering key systems, then she and her collaborators would publicly declare their allegiance. I hope she died on Hosnian Prime, as I doubt the FO would have warned her they were attacking Hosnian Prime, but she might just be lucky enough to be off-planet.

    Ideally, government would involve compromise, with neither extreme side winning or forcing a stalemate. Sadly the Populists and Centrists ended up in permanent stalemate. I think if necessary Leia was planning to force change as First Senator, even if she did go down in history as a dictator, since Mon Mothma had left her such a useless system. Its why she got along with Casterfo, she would prefer an effective government, which is what Casterfo believes in, just that most of the Centrists would prefer tyranncal government. The Populists aren't evil, but really incompetent unfortunately. Doesn't help that one of the few good politicians we se in Bloodlines was from Ryloth, and he was a Rebellion veteran too.

    I just really, really hope VIII and IX give a better idea of the overall war than TFA did.
     
  14. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    The overwhelming sense I got in Bloodline of the NR is that it's not working because too many people don't want it to work.

    And the excuses are really quite pathetic and tend to revolve around variations of:
    • We can't work with the other side - bullcrap, that's what you went into politics to do.
    • Mothma was so good at the job that no one else comes close - bullcrap, that's an easy out to excuse the current failings.
    The other element which keeps being forgotten is that it took 20 years to get to the state in Bloodline. In that 20 years there was no popular uprising against the NR, far from it, in fact, the galaxy is at peace and so prosperous the only route available to the First Order is to get greedy politicians to bitch over that they haven't got enough of what they want. And that is? Unlimited powah of course, gets the suckers every time.

    I wouldn't be surprised in the least if, contrary to everyone else's expectations, Jakku is indeed the end of the Empire in absolute terms. What no one knew is that in the Unknown Regions there was a secret empire dedicated to Sidious' ultimate vengeance of '**** the Galaxy' if it rejected him, thus Starkiller vengeance.
     
  15. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Well there were Imperial territories in the Core and Inner Rim that kept to their boundaries, and a remnant in BTA on the map, so there must be some remnant left.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  16. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    The Empire surrendered and withered away under reparations, so that means there's a surviving Empire for a while unless we interpret it to mean Imperial worlds under the NR. It's all still hazy.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
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  17. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I anticipate it will be for some time. It's not as if we have any books and so forth planned between 5 and 28 ABY...


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  18. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 28, 2003
    Not only that, but the reference to Imperial worlds in the Core and Inner Rim comes from the moment the Concordance was signed. There is no indication that these worlds all remain Imperial. Not only that, but everyone in Bloodline talks of the Empire as some distant memory, not as a quasi-independent remnant state. I think that it is very safe to assume that post-Jakku the remnants of the Empire wither very quickly.

    Which I think is a good thing. It shows that for all it's later dysfunctions that the New Republic was able to achieve good things in it's first decade. Apparently it was successful at getting things done under Mon Mothma's leadership, as she was able to bridge the factions and drive compromise.

    I'm still all for Chancellor Casterfo in Episode VIII. With support from his good friend General Leia Organa of the Resistance. ;)

    --Adm. Nick
     
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  19. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    I assume the remnant state that Poe notes on the map comes into being when some Centrists secede between Bloodline and BtA.


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  20. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 28, 2003
    Presumably, but it still seems to imply that the secession was small in scale and not even worth the NR's leadership caring. That remnant state is described as being at the edge of the Galaxy behind the Trans-Hydian Borderlands, so it can't contain Core or Inner Rim worlds.

    I'm assuming that OOU that there were misconceptions among the authors about what happened to the Empire and how it became the First Order. Which I'm of course totally willing to forgive, as they were doing this before TFA came out and trying to keep things mysterious. It will be up to the Story Group to sort and iron out the differences.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  21. FTeik

    FTeik Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2000
    As you said yourself, that all happened in a year's time - which means they were still more the Rebel-Alliance instead of a Republic. As for an overmilitarized Galaxy, 25,000 ISDs and thirteen Executors for a galaxy with millions of inhabited worlds is NOT overmilitarized

    We don't know everything, that happened during the Battle of Jakku and Bloodlines and we don't know, how much territory actually was under NR-control for most of those two to three decades and enjoying the peace. I wouldn't be surprised, if Mothmaist historians painted a rather bright picture of NR-history without mentioning the shadows at the fringes.
     
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  22. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    To be fair the Visual Dictionary gives us the withering away of Imperial territory to it segues neatly. The Core and Inner Rim is simply what goes (Centrist).


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  23. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 28, 2003
    The entire Imperial military was vast and oppressive. You can argue that in terms of ship counts or tonnage the Starfleet was not massive, but the point remains that the Empire maintained a military that ensured every world felt it's presence. It might be as simple as a few garrisons and a handful of TIE's, but it is clear that IU people felt that the Empire's oppressive hand was tight on them.

    When minor worlds like Lothal have several Star Destroyers and garrisons of stormtroopers, you know the Emperor's reach was vast. ;)

    --Adm. Nick
     
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  24. Darth Zack

    Darth Zack Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    I don't think Lothal is the best example. It is a source of kyber crystals for one and is the site of Imperial industry such as the Sienar Fleet Systems factories.
     
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  25. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 28, 2003
    Tomorrow the next issue of the TFA comic adaptation comes out. I'm privately keeping my fingers crossed that it will have cool art showcasing Hosnian Prime, the Republic Senate, or the NRDF. Probably a long shot, but I'll keep hoping! :)

    --Adm. Nick