Lit From Endor to Jakku - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (On The Front Lines Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22, Sep 6, 2015.

  1. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Great post, it accurately defines what happens after the dissolution of the Galactic Empire. I agree, the new canon's original reference to a "rump" Empire is probably either poorly worded or was changed later on.

    I'm curious what Coruscant's post-Treaty government is actually called. It's definitely no longer Imperial, though it is presumably filled with former Imperial bureaucrats who probably themselves were former Republic bureaucrats. The New Republic's initial oversight was probably nothing more than "form a unity government with the local rebels and don't let the planet starve". Amedda is apparently an able administrator, plus his rescue by the rebel children and his ending the fighting on Coruscant might make him, if not popular, at least tolerated by those Coruscanti citizens who rebelled.

    The warlords, as you say, aren't any different from the old EU ones. Save that they probably don't last long. They all act like their are continuations of the Empire (or perhaps some noble ones where fighting to "restore" it), but I am sure the warlords were just selfish thugs trying to hold on to wealth and power.

    The remnants of the fleet, well they definitely are the nucleus of the First Order. Any semblance of civilization that they have via Sloane apparently disappears in the coming decades before TFA.

    --Adm. Nick
  2. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    That's a silly assertion as we have Lady Carise as as the epitome of culture and refinement. We also have a good half of the galaxy voluntarily choosing to live under First Order rule. Just because they destroyed Hosnian Prime and have begun the Second Galactic Civil War doesn't mean they're all a bunch of, okay, well, their soldiers are LITERALLY jackbooted thugs so maybe my argument isn't entirely airtight but I think it's very likely we'll see a First Order with similarities to the Empire in terms of being an actual civilization.

    They're not a bunch of Moon Nazis.
  3. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Carise and the Centrists are pawns, Chuck. They don't know what the FO really is. They all see that they truly are Moon Nazis post-TFA. Seriously, these guys are worse than the Empire. They've been brainwashing children for decades and running a military state closer to North Korea.

    --Adm. Nick
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  4. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    True, the Empire would never employ child soldiers.

    [IMG]

    The First Order's child policy is no different than the Empire's.
  5. Stymi Jedi Grand Master

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    You raise a good point, but to say there is no differences derails your own argument.

    The brainwashed Empire youth were part of the larger galactic community. The FO children only know the FO...And their worldview of the NR is much more skewed, since they have no other connection to the galactic community.

    In this sense, the Imperial youth are more of a Nazi model and the FO children more of a N. Korea model.

    sent from my Moto X-Wing
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  6. Darth Basin Jedi Master

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    The Rebels used child soldiers on Coruscant. The Anklebighter Brigade.
  7. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    Given the Empire's schools work as military boarding schools given Sabine and the others are expected to LIVE there (we have this confirmed in the kids books about Ezra's friends), I'm not sure that's actually true either. The connection with a greater galactic community is more an accident of the fact the Empire can't control their worlds quite as thoroughly as the First Order can. I have no doubt, for example, the Empire drills into their soldiers' heads that the Rebellion is a bunch of baby-eating terrorists.

    Just like the FO does the NR.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Mar 20, 2017
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  8. Stymi Jedi Grand Master

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    I'm sure they do. My point is the FO children, who start younger (from birth?), are only EVEr exposed to the FO...Which is different from pulling youth out and then feeding them massive doses of propaganda.

    It's an extremely significant difference.

    In a way... It's more in line with what the Jedi did.

    My point is...it's not exactly the same.

    sent from my Moto X-Wing
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  9. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Actually, as Jello pointed out, the Coruscant rebels (note the small "r") are native Coruscanti, not New Republic soldiers or partisans. In fact, many of those kids were rescued by the NR and brought to Naboo for adoption.

    I'm sure the NR funneled the Coruscanti rebels with weapons, but for the most part they ignored Coruscant during the year between Endor and Jakku.

    --Adm. Nick
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  10. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    I'd distinguish FO agents and believers within the galaxy from those in the UR.

    Carise and her crew are Centrists : former Imperials who want the glory days back. They think the FO will get that back. They don't know the FO's true agenda or its true power. They're pawns. But they're also the public face of the FO to the NR. It's why the NR isn't concerned. They just look like Imperial nostalgics. This isn't just analysts based on guidebooks anymore: Join the Resistance outright says the FO used to be part of the NR. Nobody knows about the extragalactic UR FO.

    Those are different from the FO kids raised in the UR. The UR FO is the real FO, the one that's trained from birth and all that. They've been in hiding and in waiting.




    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
  11. PCCViking Force Ghost

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    The FO would consider the Centrists useful idiots in the same way the Vong viewed the Peace Brigade.
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  12. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Yes, it's made up of Imperials given that Coruscant was the seat of Imperial power but it wouldn't be called Imperial, I would guess. Perhaps Amedda keeps the grand vizier title, but it's probably called some sort of provisional thing. The Court and bureaucracy are left, because they're so entwined into Coruscant, but the NR would want to keep an eye on things for the interests of its own supporters on planet.

    Some may be actual hardliners too. Those who refused to surrender and keep their worlds under military control. Regardless of their reasons for not following Amedda's orders to surrender, they're def. not a rump Empire -- since the older references refer to this rump as being bound by treaty.



    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
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  13. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    I think that is an assumption based on wishful thinking versus objective fact. Carise is a operative of the First Order and considers the Centralists Useful Idiots. The Centralists are a smokescreen for the agents of the FO and their plan to bring back the good old days. She's working for the First Order and knows about it's existence in the Unknown Regions because the FO as far as anyone knows, doesn't exist yet. The First Order has spread its tendrils through the New Republic from the Unknown Regions and manipulated events to bring about their return to glory.

    Either way, I think its premature to think of the First Order in the UK or former NR worlds as a bunch of cultureless barbarians. I imagine life in the FO is bad but I don't necessarily think it'll be any worse than the GE--which was pretty bad.
  14. Ghost Chosen One

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    No, it's not wishful-thinking-assumptions, it is a fact.

    Carise Sindian's very vague idea of the FO in the UR is that they'll help bring back greater respect for noble titles to the galaxy (lol). She's a pawn.

    Unlike the Empire recruiting some kids... the FO actually raises their soldiers from birth, never having their own name or knowing their family. Any "culture" for the soldiers is what they are brainwashed, in the same way North Korea can be said to have a culture.

    And it's not confirmed yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if the FO in the Unknown Regions has no civilians, and that everyone who was young enough to be brainwashed and raised as a number from birth in the military actually was... that it's a true totalitarian regime where all are born brainwashed members of the military, a hybrid of Brave New World and 1984.

    The rest of what you're saying is not contradicting what we are saying.

    And they are Centrists... NOT Centralists.
  15. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    Actually, we already know they have civilians because Finn and his group massacred a bunch of miners prior to the events of The Force Awakens.
  16. Ghost Chosen One

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    That doesn't mean they were non-brainwashed civilians.
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  17. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    Well, they were striking...
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  18. Ghost Chosen One

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    I'm not familiar with the story. Is it in the Unknown Regions?

    But it doesn't change that, unlike the Empire recruiting some kids, the First Order actually raises their soldiers from birth, never having their own name or knowing their family. That any "culture" for the soldiers is what they are brainwashed, in the same way North Korea can be said to have a culture.
    Last edited by Ghost, Mar 20, 2017
  19. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    Well, the Legends Empire used clones.

    Which is identical.
  20. godisawesome Jedi Master

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    I like the idea that there's a strong dichotomy on temperment and context for the UR FO and the Centrist FO. We've also got stuff from the old book suggesting the First Order military is literally born and bred for war, not just in the Stormtrooper Corps, but also in the First Order Navy, what with the crew seeing their Resurgent-class Battlecruisers as their homes. Still, Bloodlines and Propaganda seem to be going out of their way to try and paint a far more visible section of the First Order, perhaps to better explain how the NR could look at the First Order and not see their impressive rearmament; the UR First Order is totally outside the NR's knowledge,and the Centrist First Order is all that's really identified. It even explains one of Poe's quiet moments in TFA upon being taken off the shuttle inside the Star Destroyer; even he, arguably the Resistance's point man, had no idea they were this war-ready.

    Suddenly, the Resistance's small size and the First Order's paranoia about them makes sense. The Resistance is not materially up to the challenge of taking on the UR First Order, but is quite capable of exposing the weaknesses of the Centrist planets they depend on as a foothold in the Galaxy and may be close to fully exposing the actual First Order Military, at which point the NR Fleet may enter the fray and at the least stonewall their forces while the NR properly mobilizes.

    Which gives us an interesting and mysterious 3-stage development for the First Order:

    Stage 1: Remnant of the Imperial Military reforms and begins long term strategic reconditioning in the Unknown Regions. Rae Sloane and what remains of the Imperial Fleet have access to totally new planets, at least one SSD in the Eclipse, and a strong desire to rebuild and correct the mistakes of the past. Presumably, small scale colonization of new planets occurred (possibly including the faux-Mars Making Star Wars has described) and new military policies are instituted, favoring quality over quantity and featuring further development of the Hux Conditioning Process (Tm) for Young Stormtroopers. Right now, this still resembles the Legends Imperial Remnant, albeit only as a skeletal military structure.

    Stage 2: ?????, or the Pupal Stage. Somehow, the intitial First Order, with an experienced officer corps lead by someone who seems to reject the more malignant and Palpatine-esque elements of the Imeprial Identity, is transformed into the very young, very fanatical First Order military of TFA, where most of the officers and ranking leaders seen are under 40. They are also now devoted to a near religious figure in the Supreme Leader, who seems to have a twistedly paternal relationship with at least two of his main liutenants. They also develope the Starkiller, or complete its construction. It feels like some kind of purge may have occurred to lead a veteran military force with very secular leadership becoming the cult-like monstrosity we now see. Still, they lack the foothold and at least some resources, as well as surprisingly little experience.

    Stage 3: Centrist Wing Integration. The First Order activates political and terroristic agents on the NR to trigger a mass Secession of Centrist Planets (rather hilariously making them the actual anarchist saboteurs and provacateurs the Empire always painted the Rebellion as). Now the First Order has the land, resources, and public face to allow them to unveil some of their forces. To give their Stormtroopers and officers a trial by fire, they deploy them into the Western Reaches. This slight bit of "carrying the banner" ignites Leia Organa's Resistance, and a small proxy war between small elements of the First Order and the Resistance allows Poe Dameron to gain a profile and for the First Order to decide a preemptive war crime, I mean, strike, is their best option to avoid theNew Republic getting involved and ending decades of planning.

    Removed spoilers.
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  21. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    I still maintain while it's not exactly the most original idea, since Darth Vader was inspired by Doctor Doom, the First Order is best thought of this:

    [IMG]

    And not just because Disney owns both.

    The First Order was created by all of the survivors of Jakku which were summoned to the Unknown Regions by the Eclipse in what is clearly NOT Palpatine's Contingency plan but very likely Supreme Leader Snoke. Grand Admiral Sloane thinks she's coming to a bunch of leaderless, directionless, and broken people who will elect her their Pirate Queen. The thing is, I think she's going to find someone already in charge of the survivors and will be forced to integrate to it. From that point, the First Order is going to rebuild in the Unknown Regions using all of Palpatine's resources established there--probably by Thrawn. But they will be built around Snoke's values, whatever they will be. Then Snoke will send his agents to infiltrate the New Republic and essentially Palpatine 2.0 them.

    I see Lady Carise and others like her as the Hydra sleeper agents which we saw in The Winter Soldier but also an older inspiration in The Boys from Brazil. They even did a Lois and Clark episode about Nazi children infiltrating the USA. I kid you not. After being indoctrinated as children by the First Order, these people go into the rest of the galaxy and with the First Order's (UR) immense resources, build themselves a massive power bloc. I wouldn't be surprised if Snoke, himself, comes out during this time as a man of peace and Force user who deals with our hero as a friend.

    Their power bloc eventually secedes--allowing the (UR) to take over a good chunk of the galaxy. However, I think the First Order used money and its immense resources to have many people try to appease it as well as appear as a smaller threat than it was. I think we're going to have the idea of it being bound by the Galactic Concordance to be retconned away, though, even if there's a Cold War going on.

    So, my theory is Carise and other agents of the First Order among the Centrists aren't "Outer Party" members but more of the indoctrinated "First Order Youth." Brainwashed children seems to be a center of their philosophy.

    I also foresee a line from the Visual Guide to The Force Awakens as having a chilling meaning. General Hux is the Supreme Commander of the Imperial Military and had to step over a lot of bodies to get to his position.

    I suspect we'll discover Grand Admiral Sloane was one of them.
  22. Ben09 Jedi Padawan

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    Dude, GREAT post, very well thought out. I think you nailed it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  23. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    It will be interesting to see if the Centrists post-TFA start to pull away from the First Order, or if they are filled with fear and afraid to oppose them. I want to see some nuance like this, as regardless of the political affiliations, these worlds spent decades as part of the New Republic. Of course, I'm still curious if major Centrists like Coruscant or Kuat actually joined the FO, or if they were Centrist worlds that decided to stay in the NR fold. I find it very unbelievable that every single Centrist aligned planet suddenly joined the FO.

    As The Last Jedi was hinted to be political, hopefully we'll see more of this!

    --Adm. Nick
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  24. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    The First Order should be shown as the one true way for the galaxy as the New Republic fosters terrorists.

    :)
  25. Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight

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    So who's Red Skull, Armon Zola and Baron Von Strucket in this Scenario! Snoke is Maveth obviously.