Lit From Endor to Jakku - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (On The Front Lines Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22, Sep 6, 2015.

  1. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    I've been thinking a lot about the Battle of Kuat. Given that it is a multi-week, massive space battle, is it safe to assume that it was a far grater scale than Jakku? We tend to focus on the climactic battles (Endor, Jakku), but I'm wondering if in sheer number of ships that Kuat takes the prize. We know that the NR deployed a large number of MC80's and at least one of their new Starhawk battleships.

    Thoughts? I'm kinda keen on the battle for the Empire's main source of Star Destroyers being larger than Endor or Jakku.

    --Adm. Nick
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  2. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

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    I don't know about disney canon.
    But it sounds like in the EU Kuat had its own set of golan defense stations, not to mention three or four super star destroyer in construction at any second. Unless some inside job or entire fleet of the NR/RA was committed, I don't see how it could have been taken.
  3. JediKnight75 Jedi Master

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    I don't think it would have been larger than Jakku. However, it was probably of the similar scale. The difference was that Endor and Jakku had the opportunity for a decisive victory and I think the NR sent more ships to Jakku since they new it was the remainder of the fleet. At Endor the loss of the Death Star and Emperor threw the Imperials into disarray and forced them to retreat. At Jakku, destroying the Ravager broke the Imperial formation and gave the NR an advantage. At Kuat, there was no large significant target. Just the shipyards and Imperial defense fleet. So the NR had to fight every ship until the Empire surrendered. The Empire was dug in and there wasn't an easy way to get an advantage.

    I do hope we see more of Just in a story. We need a Battle novel that's set after Endor. The Battles of Naboo are likely significant and have yet to be explored. Also, while we have a story about Kuat, I feel like it deserves further development.
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  4. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

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    We actually need some kind of guerilla fleet apart from Sloane/FO fighting the NR.
    Maybe a trilogy.
  5. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    It will be interesting to see the scale of the various battles for Naboo. The first one was minor, just a single ISD versus the MC80 Restoration. We know that the world held significant symbolic value to some Imperial commanders, presumably many of the wannabe emperors we see referenced in Lost Stars. People probably hoped that Palpatine had hidden secrets there.

    At least one battle for Naboo sounds to be a pretty big affair, so hopefully we'll get a story on that at one point in the future.

    In terms of big battles, we appear to have the following:
    • Endor
    • Fondor (TBD, but sounds impressive based on Battlefront II)
    • Naboo
    • Kuat
    • Jakku
    Overall, the Empire seems to die more from a thousand little cuts and a few mortal wounds.

    --Adm. Nick
  6. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    Given Jakku is implied to be the largest space battle ever with both sides sending their ENTIRE fleets, probably not. The fact the Imperial fleet was stationed at Jakku as a whole is meant to be insane to an extent, I think.
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  7. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

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    Not really.
    I mean if the entire fleet cannot win against the Rebels, then how can picket forces?
    You could argue about guerilla warfare, regional superiority, but by the time of Jakku I'm not sure it's feasible. Troops have to be paid. It's either one huge battle or a battle of attrition. There was no more area for time as in RL WW2 or Napoleonic War Russia. It literally is Waterloo.
  8. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Well, Ackbar noted that the NR left a reserve of warships behind at Chandrila and Nakadia in EE, so it wasn't the entire NRDF. Besides, the NR at this point controls most of the known galaxy, they can't afford to concentrate all their ships in one place.

    Rax, on the other hand, has the advantage of concentrating all his ships in one place, as he abandoned known space.

    --Adm. Nick
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  9. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

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    Operation Cinder is a bad plan.
    But even if it had to be committed, then at least
    1)put the entire fleet at a shipyard system like Fondor or Kuat.
    2)start building a shipyard at Jakku. Pump out clones for troops or build battle droids. It's not like the technology is lost.

    Once the battle at whatever planet (Jakku) is finished, just order Order 77 or something and have the clones/droids kill everyone. Operation Cinder success!
  10. JediBatman Jedi Knight

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    Let's do a comparison. My sources: The Essential Guide to Warfare, Blade Squadron: Kuat, and Wookieepedia

    Legends:

    The Taking of Kuat (note I said "taking", not "battle", this will be important), occurred in 8 ABY.

    TEGTW starts out mentioning previous attacks on Kuat as depicted in Empire at War, Empire at War: Forces of Corruption, and X-wing: Iron Fist. (Interestingly the last two both involve a crime lord or warlord stealing a super star destroyer). Then it gets into the surprisingly creative way the NR finally got wrested it from Imperial control.

    First, Cracken had a team of slicers work in secret for months to install astromechs on the 5 main ships guarding Kuat. The droids installed computer viruses. Next, Tycho Celchu lead an attack with A-wings armed with ion torpedos, disabling several ships while the virus disabled several more. (Some ships even fired on allies). At the same time, Ral Rai Muvunc called an emergency shareholder's meeting amongst the KDY board of directors. It seems he's been buying up shares of KDY stock (it's almost worthless because the Empire officially controls it), so Muvunc now owns 34% of the company. With news that the NR has taken out 9 warships in a few minutes, and a fleet of Mon Cal Cruisers could be moments away, most of the board members agree to surrender. The NR won without losing a single pilot. Really the only wrinkle in this victory was that the half completed Eclipse fled to the Deep Core so it could participate in Dark Empire.

    Said Jason Fry, "Here's a story I'd always wanted to tell, and figured I'd never get the chance—the downfall of one of the Empire's major fortress worlds. I was amazed when Warfare rolled around, nobody had tackled it yet, and I realized I'd get my wish. And then I was stressed out, because I didn't want a big fleet action or starfighter heroics—I wanted something nobody would see coming." And I agree, a well done unique take on it.

    Canon:

    Canon also had a previous attacks on Kuat, a bombing raid mentioned in one of the comics, and a planned attack in Battlefront: Twilight Company that was ultimately scrapped. Also Rebels apparently stole a super star destroyer while it was undergoing repairs at Kuat.

    Then sometime in 5 ABY, they launch the final attack. From the brief descriptions we get of the battle of Kuat in the short story and (apparently) Aftermath, it's more of a traditional battle. That's not to say it's complete mindless action though. They realize they don't have enough ships to take Kuat in one go, so they focus on a lengthy campaign of bombing it's infrastructure. Also it gave us this awesome image:

    [IMG]

    So what can we learn from this? Two very different takes on the event, each shaped by the canon they belong to. In Legends the rise of the NR was measured in years, with many lengthy battles and campaigns. Fry's wanted such a momentous event to stand out a bit more from what had come before, so wrote the story based on espionage and corporate maneuvering. In contrast, the NR's takeover is accelerated greatly in the Nu Canon, the war is over in a year (and it could be argued that other than Scarif, "full scale" battles of massive sci fi fleets didn't happen until Endor. Prior to that most of the battle of the GCW were small scale raids). Because of this change, it can be argued that a more traditional battle is needed. The writers have a year to fit in massive Endor/Jakku style battles, and they're gonna make the most of it. Plus narratively it shows the NR is now an equal match for the Empire.

    As always with the Nu Canon, the questions of "how did the Rebels rise in power so quickly?" and "Why didn't they use this stuff at Yavin or Endor?" come up. My headcanon is that with massive civillian uprisings and public support, the NR no longer has to work in secret. It can more freely communicate with cells that have been stockpiling resources, and also has a massive influx of new resources and recruits. Also Imperial infighting helps.

    Still I'd love to see this battle elaborated on more. Maybe there was some industrial/corporate espionage and viruses involved. Maybe there was a battle with warlords there. Maybe some of the destroyed/captured super star destroyers mentioned in Aftermath were involved. There's lots of potential here.
    Last edited by JediBatman, Jul 13, 2017
  11. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Well, we know that Scarif represented a majority of the Rebel's fleet power at that point. As Pablo notes in the RO Visual Guide, the Alliance is just now starting to ramp up fleet production at Telaris. My assumption is that the fleet is continually growing between Scarif and Endor, with the Alliance using it only when absolutely needed and/or detaching small task forces for missions when appropriate. The first large scale deployment comes at Endor.

    Post-Endor, the Alliance is in a different position. There is a mass uprising in the galaxy, worlds like Mon Cala, Corellia, and Nadiri are suddenly available AND flush with resources. The New Republic also benefits from Imperial ships that are captured/defected, as well as whatever warships all the new members donate to the war effort.

    --Adm. Nick
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  12. JediBatman Jedi Knight

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    IMO Pablo has a bit of a minimalist streak, and this is a bad thing. After all the RO Visual guide also says that the Alliance doesn't really have any tanks/armored vehicles, that TIE Strikers were a prototype, and that U-wings had a limited production. It's like the "all Death Troopers were later assigned to the Death Star, and that's why they were never seen again!" jokes that came up around the time RO was released, but taken seriously. At least with the TIE Strikers, if the design becomes popular amongst writers and artists, we can always say it caught on. With the U-wing, now future writers and artists will be discouraged from using it. He could have just gone with the explanation that a troop transport is going to be of limited use at the battles of Yavin, Hoth, and Endor, but noooooooo, he had to take the ridiculous view that the Rebels we see in on screen in the movies are pretty much the ONLY Rebels fighting an Empire of billions (or at least the only Rebels that really matter in the grand scheme of things). This minimalist streak seems to apply to ground bases too, with the comics calling bases "temporary Rebel bases". Twilight Company showed that Hoth was just the headquarters for Alliance High Command, and that the Alliance could indeed briefly hold ground, but other sources seem convinced that Dantooine, Yavin, and Hoth were the ONLY Rebel Bases in the galaxy.

    I'll accept that Scarif and Endor showed the MAIN Alliance fleet, but I'll never accept that it's the ONLY Alliance Fleet in an entire galaxy of thousands of worlds. At the very least there have to be Rebel cells out there with minimal contact with High Command, who have their own fleets. (Twilight Company seems to support this view).

    If you're wondering "Why didn't the Alliance send everything they have at Endor?", here are a couple counter points.

    • We already know some Rebels were sent on a suicide/distraction mission in the form of Operation: Yellow Moon, so we already know they aren't committing their FULL force.
    • Some forces are in reserve or needed to guard places like the Tellaris shipyards. Sure defeating the Death Star is important, but no sense putting all your eggs in one basket.
    • Remember the "It's a trap!" line. They expected the under construction Death Star to be well guarded, but not THAT well guarded. In the end they only really needed a sizeable force of capital ships to form a protective perimeter, and a sizeable force of star fighters to destroy it.
    • Secrecy is key to the alliance. Communications can be traced, and every new recruit is a potential double agent. With this in mind, I think there had to be lots of Rebel cells out there who only had minimal contact with High Command, but were slowly building up their strength. Then, when Endor happened and they got tons of public support, the cells could operate more openly and join up with the main alliance. Sure the NR must have had a massive influx of NEW troops and resources, but training and manufacturing take time. Realistically what the Alliance fields at Kuat, Naboo, and Jakku can't ALL be fighters and soldiers that were built/recruited in just under a year's time.
  13. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Grater? Well the Rebels did deploy a new weapon:

    [IMG]
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  14. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    Well, the ability to build, crew, deploy, fight, and maintain a capital ship, let alone a fleet of them, isn't exactly an easy task. It's worth noting that even in new canon, Rebel leaders realize that they do have access to a nearly endless supply of ground forces (see Mon Mothma's note in RO novelization). Ground armies are easier to maintain and feed, plus many of them seem to have been local Rebel armies, as opposed to field armies maintained by the Alliance High Command.

    In the case of the Mid Rim campaign, the Alliance overstretched itself and lost a lot of material and lives. The fleet seems to have been spared the worst of this, but I imagine that the Rebellion's formal and informal army units took some severe losses.

    As for the fleet, I do believe that the majority of the Alliance Navy was at Endor. Oh sure, I don't doubt that there were scattered Rebel cells and localized sector forces that had access to ships, but I don't see them having large warships on the scale of an MC80. The Alliance's main fleet was it's singular concentration of heavy warships. Something grown and developed, in great secrecy and at great cost, to serve as the true core of the Rebel military.

    I do get your point about the Alliance expecting the second Death Star to be "relatively unprotected" and not operational. However, the very fact that the main fleet was assembled and risked shows that they took this threat seriously. Just because the Imperial Navy wasn't expected to be there in force doesn't mean that the Alliance was going to risk this mission to a simple fighter attack.

    They knew they had ONE chance to destroy the Death Star and the Emperor in one attack. This is something that Mon Mothma, Ackbar, and the Rebel High Command would see as a worthwhile target for the whole fleet. Knocking out a world destroying superweapon and the Empire's ruler is as good a target as any.

    --Adm. Nick
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  15. JediBatman Jedi Knight

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    Agreed about capital ships requiring more resources, though the armies probably had problems as well.

    I'm not suggesting that the scattered Rebel Cell Fleets had many Mon Cal Cruisers or other big capital ships, just that it might not be unusual for them to have, say, one or two large cruisers and a couple of smaller frigates. So it may be the "largest concentration of capital ships" in that sense. But unless there are a great deal of offscreen ships, the 20-30 or so capital ships being the "majority" of the Alliance's space fleet seems improbable. I found it unlikely back when it took the Alliance/NR several years to be able to liberate a galaxy and be relatively equal in size to the Imperial forces, now that they go from "tens of ships" to "thousands of ships" in a year, I find it even more unbelievable. I don't doubt that they saw DS2 as a major threat and gave it their all, I just think they sent every ship available, not every ship they had. Some ships being held in reserve, either because they were being repaired, needed for something else, or because they were with Rebel Cells they couldn't contact, seems more believable to me.
  16. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    This is why I always felt the Star Wars universe should have been more like a few thousand worlds than a million.

    Edit:

    Re: The Rebel Fleet Size

    I actually think the Rebellion was on its last legs previous to Endor. One of the things I always felt worked well was the fact the Death Star's destruction was a mixed blessing. I think it showed the Empire COULD be beaten but I think the Rebellion's immediate success was followed by their reduction to almost insignificance by the Empire finally taking them seriously. Much of the galaxy rose up (at least it tried to) post-Yavin only for the Empire under Darth Vader to immediately smash it down.

    The Empire no longer was hiding its evil and I suspect it was mostly successful in crushing the Rebellion's forces with its military might. I think it's a Dark Time for the Rebellion. Not just because of Hoth but I suspect many other major Rebel worlds and forces.

    What does this mean at Endor? I think the Rebel Fleet is about everything the Rebellion could snap together because this is the last chance they have. If they kill the Emperor and destroy another Death Star, the Empire will be destroyed. The sheer cost of the Second Death Star is probably as much as the Empire's GDP and the flower of its military. I don't think we ever got a sense of how big the Death Star's were supposed to be but I think both times they were populated with the most loyal and most talented Imperials so the loss of them struck a severe heart to the Imperial military institution.

    But we know Palpatine is the lynchpin.

    So it's an ALL OR NOTHING shot. Yes, there'd be some Rebel operatives left over but they really can't afford to leave anything behind. It's one of those typical fantasy, "Last Great Stands."
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Jul 13, 2017
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  17. JediBatman Jedi Knight

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    I'll agree that the Alliance is in very real danger of failing around Hoth, the different are cells probably in hiding licking their wounds (though I'd guessing the Empire is also risking over stretching itself). But unless they can train people and build weapons/vehicles astoundingly quickly, 20-30 ships to take on the whole Empire is impossible. (Granted they do have advanced tech, and the Empire was able to build a bigger Death Star in just 4 years, but 1 year is pushing it). I mean, according to Uprising the Empire has 25,000 Star Destroyers alone, which is enough to park 5 in orbit above nearly every planet in the last online update of The Essential Atlas. Even a fraction of that (say, 200) would've been enough to completely wipe it out before Vader even had a chance to redeem himself and kill the Emperor. (Part of why even though I'm not a minimalist, I consider the 25,000 figure to be unlikely. Just leave it at a vague "thousands").

    I'll accept "The Alliance defeated the Empire 1 year after Endor thanks to the overwhelming public support and previously hidden cells", but I won't accept "The Alliance only had 20-30 capital ships in the whole galaxy, and liberated it only with those plus whatever they could build and train in a year, and managed to destroy or capture several super star destroyers to boot".
  18. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    The Essential Atlas is wrong because it contradicts the movies. There's a million planets in the Empire and the Prequels state at least 20,000 were in the Separarists. That means 1 Star Destroyer for every 5 Systems.

    I think the Rebel Alliance did not have any ability whatsoever to engage the Empire militarily in direct battle. They won via diplomayc and stepping in when the Empire collapsed.
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  19. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

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    Operation Cinder didn't help.
    Shouldn't there be a backup plan like Oops this time the Rebels didn't get destroyed. The Galaxy is not going to be destroyed. Let's go to node B where we can destroy the rebels first and then we will turn the gun upon ourselves....
  20. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

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    Palpatine probably didn't like to think about dying. That's almost out of character, to be honest.
  21. JediBatman Jedi Knight

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    I'm not saying that there aren't a million planets in the Empire (though really every story besides reference books makes it feel more like 10's of thousands), but more for context: It's enough to cover nearly every planet ever mentioned in 40 years of Star Wars 5 times over.

    Also obviously the Alliance isn't going to be able to directly challenge the Empire for most of the war, relying more on guerilla tactics and reputation (I've often compared it to the board game Star Wars Rebellion), but for the last year it pretty much has to. And things like Jakku and Kuat show that they DID directly challenge the Empire.

    I've said it before, in the real life wars such as the American Revolution or Vietnam that influenced Star Wars, guerilla tactics were effective. But in both cases the underdog didn't then sail across the ocean to take over the enemy nation. I understand that part of the theme of Star Wars is "underdog triumphs over seemingly invincible foe", but there are limits to how one sided you can make the fight before it becomes unbelievable.
  22. Chris0013 Jedi Knight

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    I have the same issue with both of these.

    U-Wings should have been something that Incom developed maybe 8 to 10 years after The Clone Wars and sold all over the galaxy in both a military and civilian form...basically a SW version of the UH-1 Iroquois (Huey) and the Bell 204/205. And there are pretty much millions of them. You would have local police and militias using them as transports and businesses using them (with an more comfortable interior) for executive transport.

    Strikers should have been early in their production run and the reason we do not see them is the majority of the combat we see is space based. Yes there was Hoth and Endor but we can work with that.
    Since it is primarily an atmospheric fighter then maybe it was used by the Imperial Army as opposed to the Navy.

    As far as the size of the Rebel fleet...I would say that Scarif was a task force...but not a large part of the fleet. Endor on the other hand may have been 1/2 of the ships of the fleet but maybe 75% to 80% of the fleets firepower. There were still a lot of smaller groups the size of what we saw when we were first introduced to the Phoenix group. A frigate, light cruiser or carrier with a handful of corvettes for support. Maybe sent out to perform raids to try to draw Imperial forces away from the Endor.
    Last edited by Chris0013, Jul 13, 2017
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  23. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

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    Perhaps most of the NR/RA navy ships/naval personnel were them defectors from the Imperial Starfleet.

    It is the only answer to how were they able to have the manpower.

    It doesn't really matter how many starships/fighters the RA had at Endor, as long as the DSII kept on firing. Even without the Executor.

    I have no idea why the DSII were actually like that. Imagine if all the time the DSII looked like that, and as soon as the RA showed up they dropped the hologram, and the completed DSII with superstructure in place (probably no exhaust port this time either).
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  24. Chris0013 Jedi Knight

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    May 21, 2014
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    IIRC...in the old EU...DSII did not have one exhaust port like DSI...it had multiple smaller ones and I also think they were not a straight tube from reactor to surface.
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  25. Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC

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    I don't know - the Battle of Jakku dragged on for months in the end. Kuat was likely a siege and a slog, more than anything, as an extension into Imperial territory.


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