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Lit From Endor to Jakku - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (TLJ Novelization Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Sep 6, 2015.

  1. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    May 28, 2003
    I pulled out my copy of Cracken's Threat Dossier this weekend (I was organizing all my old EU reference books) and I decided to read through the setup of the New Republic government in it. There are more than a few similarities that pop up, including the debate as to how large a navy was truly required by a peacetime Republic and what role it should play. I would it very interesting to read, I may post some snippets later today.

    --Adm. Nick
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  2. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Nov 15, 2004
    That’s one of my favourite of the old sourcebooks. Especially the Empire chapters. Even with Imperials ruling a quarter of the galaxy in 16 ABY the New Republic simply doesn’t consider them a threat. It’s just that weak.

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    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  3. Shadowrain10

    Shadowrain10 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Sep 12, 2017
    That would actually be a very smart move for the Resistance to do, and I would very much approve of that.
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  4. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Knight star 2

    Sep 13, 2017

    Right, but that NR was actually keeping an eye on them and were building and innovating new vehicles for action in case they were dumb enough to attack again; Hell, if there was a whisper of Starkiller Base or even the Resurgent SD, you could bet the Legends NR would take action.

    In fact, I read somewhere that Wedge boasted how whenever the Imperials of old were to show up they'd get a new fighter. Plus there's the work they did in making those large Super Ships on the New Republic's side.

    That's an NR I can get behind. And a Mothma I would've gladly stood beside.

    The current canon would want me to get the hell out of dodge and oppose Mothma's demilitarization plan till I was blue in the face.

    Now, the understaffed, underfunded, vastly weaker Resistance was the one keeping an eye on the FO. Currently they only have the MF.

    Perhaps, but that would imply that this trilogy had a certain cohesiveness. It doesn't. If you disagree, I will redirect you to my Luke-Lightsaber and Resistance fleet arguments.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  5. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Nov 15, 2004
    And the Home One and the Echo of Hope! Somewhere or other.

    Considering the FO in 34 ABY appears to be considerably, if not monstrously stronger than the Empire of 16 ABY, that disarmament stratagem would definitely appear mental. Even though the Fifth Fleet was resisted by the Senate, Leia managed it well enough.

    I mean, the Remnant had eight sectors and everything was peaceful - even the years of Second Imperium battles was nothing more than glorified mopping up - but the New Republic works on the Strident-class Star Defenders, Bothan Assault Cruisers, Mediator-class battle cruisers and Ranger-class gunships... it’s practically the Sixth Fleet.

    The Empire attacks all the way to Champala after four years of peace and the New Republic runs over the Empire in a matter of weeks. The FO attacks after twenty nine years of peace and the NR collapses in a matter of weeks.

    At least it took the FO nearly three decades to get up the strength to knock over the NR!

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  6. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer Force Ghost star 6

    Mar 26, 2013
    I took that as more of (to use a real-world analogy here) the Democrats saying: we can't wait for Obama to come back, we must turn our fortunes around by ourselves now.

    *I am not in any way getting political, merely using this as an example to show what I thought the book was going for.
  7. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Jan 3, 2013
    Yeah, it's meant more like that, plus a reference to how it appears that only a leader on the level of Mon Mothma could make the weak Chancellor work, and it therefore makes more sense to create reforms rather than wait who knows how long for someone like that to come along.

    (Of course, the irony to this is that since Lady Carise does not actually have the Republic's best interests in heart, her actual demonstrated response to people like that appearing is to destroy them.)
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  8. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    May 28, 2003
    The NRDF basically has three stages:

    1. Rebel stage (composed solely of legacy designs used up to Endor)
    2. War stage (new designs rushed out to win the war against the Empire quickly)
    3. Peacetime stage (new, smaller designs focused on peacetime patrols and a home fleet of "legacy" heavy hitters)

    The first stage is basically MC75's & MC80's, backed up by Neb-B's, CR90's, Dornean gunships, and stuff like that.
    The second stage is where we see MC85's, Starhawks, CEC Bunkerbusters, and MG-100 bombers introduced. Heavy stuff to augment the legacy ships and win the war.
    The third stage is post-Concordance and disarmament, where smaller frigates like the Nebulon-C or Vakbaer-class are used for escort and patrol, while the heavy ships are quickly decommissioned and the home fleet becomes a sort of "strategic reserve" of MC80's and other remaining Anaxes Scale heavy cruisers or higher.

    The sad part is that stage three actually makes a ton of sense... unless there is a rising power threatening you. I don't think that the New Republic got it wrong for a peacetime force. Very 18th century, with a home fleet in reserve and heavy ships "in ordinary", while smaller and more capable frigates patrol the seas and protect commerce.

    --Adm. Nick
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  9. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Knight star 2

    Sep 13, 2017
    RJ probably retconned the Home One and Echo of Hope. Don't be surprised if we don't see them. Just as well, anything less than an MC85 won't hold up against a Resurgent, let alone a Dreadnought. I'm tired of seeing the good guys' ships wind up as bad guy fodder.

    And the sad part is, the NRDF is at the mercy of the writers.

    The guys behind Legends had it right, if they were gonna let the Imperials go, they would have the army that kicked their ass and then some. After 20 years of oppression you can bet the good guys would make damn sure they didn't have any real power anymore and not leave the Imperials to themselves for nearly 20 years, and apparently the NR knew about Snoke and did nothing. WTF?

    Plus Mothma thought she could negotiate for the prisoners at Atollon. She makes it sound as if the Imperials were misjudged and didn't understand what the Rebels wanted. God.....And knowing that she's behind the Demilitarization Act, has stunts like that make sense but in a bad way. That's not someone I would want as my leader during a time of say, World War II. She definitely wasn't gonna be making any grounds with the Axis Powers till she gave strong showings of military power, which even after she got the armies, she was reluctant about using it. And this is galling because she's talking to Ezra about their resources being taxed trying to help where they're needed and WAITING, being PATIENT. Then when it's finally said and done, she cuts it down by 90%!

    There are always gonna be the greedy types who evade rules and regulations and get power whether it's the Trade Federation and the CIS, The Empire or those no name fat cats on Cantonica, Mothma needed a wakeup call and the Empire was supposed to be just that, but the Demilitarization Act just says to me she maintained that same starry-eyed idealism from back during the Clone Wars era.

    I still maintain Alderaan and Jedha were her fault. The current Mothma, I don't know how the Rebels handled getting the DS Plans in Legends.
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  10. BeesInABar

    BeesInABar Jedi Knight star 1

    Sep 20, 2015
    Assuming a shift in Resistance leadership from Leia to Poe off-screen before Ep IX, is anyone else concerned with the Resistance’s lack of credible civilian leadership in a post-war situation? The Alliance had a core of former Senators ready to step in as a government-in-waiting. Poe may have learned some lessons in leadership during TLJ, but I don’t think anyone would argue the dude’s ready to govern. Poe Dameron as leader of the Resistance is essentially a warlord.
    They’d never do it, but it could be interesting to explore the struggles many long-running liberation movements have in adjusting to civilian governance.

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    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  11. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    May 28, 2003
    The Rebel Files touches on this. Leia didn't add a civilian structure to the Resistance because in her mind it already existed via the Senate and Chancellor. So she viewed the Resistance more as a military arm of the New Republic. With the Senate gone and the civilian leadership of the New Republic basically now only existing on a planetary level, the Resistance (or whatever replaces it) will have to decide how to remedy that. Granted, at the end of TLJ the Resistance is composed of 20 survivors and the Falcon, so the reality is that whatever anti-First Order alliance emerges will have to find it's own political and military footing.

    There are presumably alot of retired New Republic senators and officials still alive on various member worlds, these would form a good basis for a civilian structure. Ditto any surviving retired NRDF officers as well.

    --Adm. Nick
  12. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Oct 13, 2003
    IF we go back to the status quo ante bellum, then out of all the new characters, I can see Rose as most likely to join the new government as a Senator or something like that.
  13. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Knight star 2

    Sep 13, 2017
    They need to win first.

    What is there for the Resistance to use against the FO?

    Let's look at what the FO has:

    FO Dreadnought - Fleet Killers and Base Busters
    Resurgent SDs = Kings of Ship-to-ship warfare and a good anti-fighter arsenal
    TIE Silencers - An upgraded TIE which had the basis for a Defender and the production people are waiting for it to be mass-produced for standard frontlines. (Though if the production facility for it was the Supremacy itself that was dumb)
    AT-M6 - Designed to penetrate defensive shields and is a bigger, badder version of an AT-AT.
    Modified AT-ST and AT-ATs
    TIE Fighters - Replaceable droves.

    Meanwhile on the Resistance's side.....The Falcon which lost a turret and its satellite dish.

    Their experimental shielding that held up against the Supremacy's fire, where'd they managed to dig that up? That'd be useful. Still smarting over the fact that TIEs were capable of blowing the Raddus' bridge so easily, however. But then, the Raddus was focusing its shields to its stern, so that'd be explain the ease of the TIEs' assault.

    Adm. Nick, as mentioned earlier, there's that shielding, but do you know what else the NR and the Resistane have on their side that might get them an age. Manufacturers, allies, the works from the ICS and the Visual Dictionary?

    I just want assurances that SW won't be reduced to something embarrassing in IX.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  14. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

    Jul 19, 1999
    The ability to destroy a planet or even a star system is insignificant next to the power of the plot.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
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  15. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    May 28, 2003
    Considering how the New Republic was able to design and field in the span of one year both the MC85 star cruiser and Starhawk battleship, I think it's clear that it's industrial capacity is able to ramp up very quick. If world's like Corellia, Mon Cala, and Sullust hold out (or revert to Rebel-class hidden shipyards ala Telaris), it is possible for new warships to start appearing to turn the tide.

    Conversely, it may just be that a galactic uprising inspired by Luke's sacrifice proves too much for the FO to overcome. Either way, I don't see these Imperial wannabes making it out of IX... ;)

    --Adm. Nick
  16. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Knight star 2

    Sep 13, 2017
    The Imperial wannabes losing was never in question, in fact it's only cemented in Episode 8. Little kids, big toys, little adult supervision (Captain Canady and Snoke) It'd be pretty embarrassing with these guys at the galactic reigns.

    So....Suped up star destroyers vs. Suped up Nebulon Mon Cal cruisers......Right? Again.....No Rebel Tanks or ground vehicles, another 'decisive' space battle.

    The bedrock of my question was that if we are basically setting ourselves up for a GCW rehash in Ep. IX. I know people aren't partial to the word regarding the ST, but too bad, that's what it's looking like to me.
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  17. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Knight star 3

    May 3, 2015
    . . . what, do you think the next film is going to have the Millennium Falcon take down the whole First Order by itself? I've criticized some the lack of sense of scale in the New Canon, but even I don't think they'd go to THAT extreme.

    Of course the Resistance/New Rebellion/Whoever is going to have more toys in Ep 9. If for no other reason than Star Wars tends to have Wars in it.
  18. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Knight star 2

    Sep 13, 2017
    Hey, if the shoe fits.

    I was expecting Ep. VIII to have a time skip and look where that got us.....

    They say Ep. IX is the War to End All Wars, but I'm not sure I trust their judgement in regards to that. They said TLJ would rock SW's foundation and have you ask questions you didn't even know you had. They lied. So I'm not sure if I can muster any enthusiasm to care for a New Rebellion/First Order conflict.

    This series of questions is me trying to.
  19. Jozgar

    Jozgar Jedi Knight star 3

    Dec 20, 2015
    Okay, what's the point of this comment? We still know absolutely nothing about Episode IX's plot beyond the fact that the Resistance and the First Order are going to duke it out. We don't know the plot structure, the type of ships we'll see or what the final battle will look like. All this comment does is tick people off who are tired of the "REHASH REHASH REHASH" claims, which you seem perfectly aware of. So why post this?

    Actually, for a lot of people, that was true. Don't assume your opinion is god.
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  20. DarthCane

    DarthCane Jedi Master star 4

    May 30, 2002
    That was a favorite of mine as well; I believe I sold it off in the last culling of my library sadly. I was just thinking about their description of the five-fleet system the Legends NRDF had; going by the Wook in 16 ABY the Fifth Fleet had 106 starships split into five task forces, each centered on a carrier or Star Destroyer. By 19 ABY its strength is listed as 500 capital ships.

    Even taking the higher number into account when extrapolating, that would put the Legends NRDF in 19 ABY at a theoretical total strength of about 2,500 capital ships - about 10% of the Empire's total fleet of ISDs, let alone other capital ships (and the question remains as to what the cutoff for a "capital" ship is; WEG sources set that bar so absurdly low that a CR90 would qualify). The new film canon might not be that far off from what we had in Legends, especially given that between 13-17 ABY the Legends NRDF had no dreadnought-scale vessels and was focused on ships smaller than an ISD as the backbone of the fleet. It wasn't until the Yevethans showed up with the Intimidator that the Legends NRDF got serious about acquiring or building dreadnought-scale vessels and possibly bringing the Lusankya out of the scrapyard.
  21. seeker_two

    seeker_two Jedi Master star 3

    Jan 3, 2003
    I see the Resistance Remnant becoming more of an intelligence and strategic planning resource to the systems fighting against the FO. Leia goes to advise Chandrilla, Poe advises Corellia, etc. Eventually, they work up an alliance of free planets that provides a fleet that can hit the FO hard....and they get that opportunity when Kylo Ren goes to inspect the construction progress of SKBII.....

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  22. TheRedBlade

    TheRedBlade Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 17, 2007
    The 18th century is the only analog I can really think of for the post-Jakku Republic. I think Mon Mothma was too much of a Country Whig for her own good.

    After the British evacuated New York in 1783, the Continental Army drew down from maybe ~13,000 soldiers to 400, most of those concentrated at the arms cache at West Point. The Confederation Congress thought that state militia would be enough to deal with future threats, or that they could raise a new army for the duration of an emergency if one arose. Mothma's thinking appears to have been identical, though why she would think that in a world where megaton-yield explosives and planet-killers exist is beyond me.

    I say again: I want Luke to be the most widely-traveled, commonly-seen Force Ghost in history. Let him appear wherever people need inspiration and hope, or anywhere there's a kid with Force talents and a good heart.
  23. MasterPrince713

    MasterPrince713 Jedi Knight star 2

    Sep 13, 2017
    Yuh-huh, do you have any evidence to back up those claims or are you just spitting on my opinions for the sake of it? If you disagree that's fine, I too am tired of the 'rehash' bits, but their evidence grows more compelling the more I find it, while I just see people doing backflips to defend the ST but they've shown me nothing equally compelling.

    Resistance vs. First Order, how else can that turn out except for something that hasn't already been seen if not in the OT than in the Rebels TV Series. Forgive me for wanting something new rather than settling for what Disney's putting out.

    I also feel like if somebody feels Ep. VIII works, they must be a very high intellectual, and I salute them, but sometimes a movie should be taken at face value and enjoyed from the get go, not after one or two repeats to analyze everything.

    In fact, I came up with a list:

    X-Wing Special Tricks TLJ/TFA/Rebels S4
    SKB and Malachor space station TFA/Rebels S2
    Maul and Ezra telepathic snafus - TLJ/Rebels S3
    Holocron self-destruction/Lightsaber split - TLJ/Rebels S3
    Loth-Wolves/Crystal Critters - TLJ/Rebels S4
    Jedi Master Refusing to Aid in Open War - TLJ/Rebels S3
    'Everything needed' - TLJ/Rebels S3
    Lost Battle - Rebels S3/TLJ
    Maul and Ezra/Dark Sider and Jedi team-up - S2/S3 Rebels/TLJ
    Hondo/DJ Wormy opportunists - TLJ/Rebels S2/S3
    Rebels running into hyperspace after crushing defeat - Rebels S3/TLJ
    Conscious Kamikaze - TLJ/Rebles S3
    Disappointing Lightsaber Duel - S3/TLJ

    Makes me wonder if they have the capacity to be creative.

    Again, if anyone disagrees, I'd like them to come tell me rationally.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  24. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 6, 2007
    The Supreme Leader's made a critical error and the time for our attack has come.
  25. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Nov 15, 2004
    *waves hand*

    You remember Legends, right?

    We had three Jedi vs Sith plotlines running by the time of the Reboot. ToR, Fate of the Jedi and the Legacy comics.

    Star Wars repeats the blue lightsaber against red lightsaber, Rebels against Empire, lumpy ships against pointy ships concept.

    It’s fun.

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