main
side
curve
  1. Welcome to the new boards! Details here!

Lit From Endor to Jakku - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (TLJ Novelization Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Sep 6, 2015.

  1. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    The TFA-era materials, along with Bloodline, do suggest a great deal of dysfunction within the New Republic -- especially with the latter telling us this continued even after the Centrists seceded to form the First Order.

    By the same token, I wouldn't take an unwillingness -- even of Leia's "allies" -- to intervene directly in a military situation to suggest everyone is OK with the First Order taking over or that nobody wants to save the Republic.

    We still don't know how much of the Republic is left and what they're willing to do. As Nick points out, it's the neutral systems that are surrendering en masse. It really depends on what the Republic worlds, without the central NRDF and government apparatus, can do. It's entirely possible they're not in the best position to resist.

    I mean, the FO blew up Hosnian Prime for a reason.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  2. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    I'd add, in light of the destruction of Hosnian Prime, it entirely possible that the Galaxy is paralyzed by fear that the First Order has other hidden superweapons. These guys are basially high-tech barbarian hordes from beyond the Rim, that is a terrifying concept. It's even more terrifying to New Republic systems and sympathetic neutral worlds that know the New Republic Navy isn't gonna come riding to the rescue or that the Senate will rally the populace. The destruction of Hosnian Prime served it's purpose spectacularly.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  3. vncredleader

    vncredleader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    I like this idea. Interestingly this is kinda the opposite response the U.S. had to the idea of nuclear missiles in the Middle East. The NR seems more cautious than nationalist
     
  4. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Star systems began surrendering all over when the Galaxy Gun was unveiled.

    Similarly, we all knew that if Bastion had discovered the Empire of the Hand they would have gone straight for Coruscant.

    This is both of those moments combined, and the Jedi Order, which, with other forward thinking military elements, was all that fought the Yuuzhan Vong - and we don’t even have the Jedi to hand.

    It’s wargaming the worst scenario possible for the forces of good.

    And we’ve still not lost.

    We have Starkiller Base and the Supremacy wrecked in the same campaign - it’s hardly as if the enemy is sweeping us up.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    So much this.

    And I thought they missed the entire point in emulating the Prequel Trilogy. The prequels are supposed to be set during the last days of a society that's become so corrupt and dysfunctional that it's on the verge of collapse. It's not supposed to be the Republic's natural and default state.
     
  6. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    I think the reason people gloss over these events is that the narrative itself glosses over these events. Abrams specifically only chose to bring back the Republic only so that he could blow it all up and go back to the David vs. Goliath status quo from the original trilogy which, apparently, is the only context in which he can imagine Star Wars being Star Wars.

    Showing the New Republic in its prime has fallen to the new EU. Your mileage may vary on how much it's succeeded at that. Bloodlines is the only novel I've read so far that really focuses on the inner workings of the Republic, and while what we see is indeed better than the Empire, a lot of the focus seems to be on the dysfunctional aspects of the system (the gridlock and bitter partisanship) and the prequel-like inevitable collapse towards the First Order (which is shown as having already infiltrated it and/or being able to operate with impunity with few people noticing or caring).
     
  7. vncredleader

    vncredleader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Agreed. Lucas always talked about SW being about the people fighting at all costs to bring back democracy to the galaxy. Keeping in mind the political state of 1977 and Lucas's own anti Nixon politics; Legends got to a point where it seemed to almost despise democracy and red tape It became almost libertarian.

    Honestly it scares me how much some fans actually defend the Empire on one level or another. And I am ot talking about Jay, I mean the people who think that an authoritarian regime is in line with SW's ideals, and that only Palps was the issue

    I too wish we got more of a look at the prime of the NR, though I do like that Bloodlines addresses that the Republic was functional for quite a while. This current state is the corruption of a genuinely good government. I do wish Bloodline went into more detail about that though. Part of what i liked about EE was that it showed Mothma's loyalty to the system as actually being a good thing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
    Alpha-Red, TheRedBlade and JediBatman like this.
  8. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    That wouldn't bother me so much in a franchise like Firefly or Pirates of the Caribbean, where "all government sucks and noble criminals doing whatever they like is the best possible outcome" is taken as a given. Agree or disagree, it comes with the premise. The problem is that Star Wars isn't that; the original trilogy was about a group of rebels who were fighting to abolish one form of government and restore a different form of government, and were shown as heroic for doing so. The premise there isn't "government must suck," it was that better government was possible, desirable, worth fighting for, and worth dying for. It would be really nice if subsequent stories didn't insist on proving the original trilogy's heroes wrong.
     
  9. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    This is why I never liked the late EU's championing of the military over the elected government. Remember the NJO's thing about a threatened military coup to fight the Vong? That was presented as a GOOD thing, something that very narrowly happened. Where were the heroes of the Rebellion who were like "sorry no, we fought for a democracy and we're not about to lose one as the result of another war."

    There's even hints of this in the current canon, with the whole General Organa thing. I love that Leia's a general too, and I get the reason JJ and everyone else did this -- to combat the whole princess thing. Except Leia was never a Disney princess, she was a fighter from the start. Princess was her title, but it was never (with perhaps the exception of Han) used as a put-down.

    Moreover, to Lucas, he always pointed to Leia the senator. He did it in 1977, he did it in the 2004 DVD commentary, he did it after Carrie Fisher passed away. It was her role as senator -- as a political leader that Lucas saw her as the driver of the revolution against the Empire.

    And now we have TFA with a useless Senate, and we have Rogue One... with useless senators too. Sure, there's Bail/Mothma but they exist only as cheerleaders for the military. And Mothma? She's presented as foolish with her military disarmament, or at least, interpreted that way by fans.

    I will never get over the desire to always present politicians and democracy as bad, but military and especially heroic warriors doing whatever they want no matter the rules as ideal.

    I mean, the heroes of the current saga are literally a private paramilitary group.
     
  10. sidv88

    sidv88 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 2005
    I agree with you. However, I think the very fabric of ROTS and ROTJ have already painted, in SW, the politicians = bad / heroic military = good in a possibly irreparable way.

    Already in ANH, we are told the Imperial Senate has been dissolved. Leia doesn't win the fight by being a Senator, but by rallying a military group to blow up the Death Star.

    In ROTS, we see democracy fail spectacularly. The people democratically elect their own dictator. To thunderous applause.

    Do the Rebels redeem democracy by winning in a political and democratic way? No. They launch an attack on Death Star 2, knowing the Emperor is on board and hoping to kill him. Luke Skywalker convinces the Vice President (Vader) to kill the President (Palpatine). Nothing about the Rebel victory in ROTJ is democratic at all. In canon, they then further cement this victory by beating the Empire to a pulp on Jakku. Might makes right.

    So the core saga already lays out democracy = bad guys winning, military takeover = good guys winning. Is it any wonder now that the Resistance just resorts to military might to win? That's the only way they know how to win.
     
    BigAl6ft6 and AusStig like this.
  11. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Yeah but I mean -- even within ROTJ, we see the fabric of the Alliance in the multiple species involved and all that. And the key moment is that the leader in the briefing is not Madine or Ackbar, but Mon Mothma.

    ROTS showed us how liberty died, how democracy failed, and all that. But then the OT showed us the military dictatorship that was the Empire. It had to be defeated by force of arms, yes -- and I wish Rogue One had spent a little more time on how the Death Star proved the Empire couldn't be negotiated with -- but that doesn't mean that the military is the ultimate desired state just as World War II did not prove that the military is better than the civilian world.

    Both WWII and the GCW were fought by military forces to ensure the return of peaceful civilian government, which was the ideal end state.
     
  12. TheAvengerButton

    TheAvengerButton Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2011
    I think TLJ lays out a good case for why that sort of militaristic attitude isn't good--the heroes try to fight back as they typically do and did and are met with failure at every turn. According to this movie alone they can't keep winning by emulating their heroes of old.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  13. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    What I really could use more of is little signs about the differences the changeover had made in the lives of ordinary people. Like in The Phantom Affair when the Twi'lek guide mentions that under the Empire she never could've gotten into that university, but since the Rebel victory she's even got a stipend. Or in Shadows of the Empire when one of Xizor's deputies mentions that it's harder for them to operate in some planets now that they've fallen under Rebel influence and passed anti-slavery laws. Or in the Thrawn trilogy where Leia finds that the Noghri world has been kept deliberately barren and poor by the Empire and shows them that it doesn't have to be that way.
     
  14. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    I think it's telling in The Rebel Files that Leia's Resistance doesn't have a political arm because, as far as she and her organization are concerned, their political arm IS the New Republic government and Senate. They view themselves as a paramilitary organization tasked with defending the New Republic. Now bereft of that government, they are fighting to restore it. Yes, I wish democracy was painted in a better light, but at least our heroes (as VADM Holdo eloquently states) are committed to the restoration of the Republic. This is WAY better than the travesty we saw in the late EU, IMO.

    --Adm. Nick
     
    TheRedBlade and vncredleader like this.
  15. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    I still don't really understand why the Republic was done so quickly. I mean, there's only a very short time span between TFA and TLJ, so how can the First Order "seize military control of the galaxy" so fast? Yes, Hosnian Prime and the defense fleet were destroyed. But do all the remaining member worlds (which means hundreds, if not thousands of worlds) just... give up? In a matter of days, if not hours? I don't get it.
     
    AusStig likes this.
  16. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    The VG notes that the neutral systems are the first to fall/surrender. As for the membership of the New Republic, not all of them have given up. Again, Rey notes that the remaining "major systems" might not hold out for more than a few weeks. So Mon Cala, Corellia, or Sullust haven't given up... they just are unable to last without some sort of unified opposition.

    Imagine the utter chaos of losing the entire political and military leadership and your primary navy in one instant. The surviving member worlds don't even have time to convene a conference to impose a provisional government or elect new senators. Everyone is reeling from the shock and probably first & foremost determining how to defend their own citizens in their home systems and sectors.

    @GrandAdmiralJello has made some great points in the past about how valuable government bureaucracies and agencies are to making things work. Imagine if all of that, plus the government, civil services, and military, were gone in a flash.

    I give the NR a lot of slack post-TFA... it's in a nearly impossible situation.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  17. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    The Vong did conquer half the galaxy in two years, and that’s with six months of being at peace with the New Republic, @LelalMekha.

    And that’s with an ineffective capital.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    AusStig likes this.
  18. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    I suppose it... does make sense, in a way.
    I guess I'm just bitter that the NR was sacrificed just so they could have "the Rebels" again on screen.
     
  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think the reason is to highlight the First Order is NOT the incompetent North Korean Keystone Cops which fandom tried to suggest they were. A lot of people seemed to think, "Well, now the REAL heroes will show up and kick ass since the Resistance is too small to matter."

    Which denigrates the Resistance AND First Order.
     
  20. vncredleader

    vncredleader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    I do dislike how much people are underselling the Resistance, but they honestly do need a LOT of help. I mean they know that and make it pretty clear themselves. The Resistance seems themselves as part of the NR navy. They were counting on the fleet for when the war started. I am certain they have been pulling resources to essentially have several taskforces ready for when war is declared. The Resistance is not sustainable on its own, it exists to get the proof to justify deploying the fleet and starting up the war machine
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
    Vialco and AdmiralNick22 like this.
  21. Vialco

    Vialco Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Which is why the one shot Starkiller Base got off was so strategically effective. It cut off the head of the enemy government and wiped out their military in one strike. At the same time, that one shot was extremely crucial. Once it had wiped out Hosnian Prime, the usefulness of the Starkiller was greatly lessened. I'd even posit that the loss of the Supremacy was more damaging to the First Order than the destruction of Starkiller Base.

    Snoke's flagship was the First Order's mobile capital, shipyard and power symbol all in one. With both the Starkiller and Supremacy gone, the First Order has taken some serious losses. But despite these losses, they've effectively won. No significant force remains to oppose them. Coruscant is Ren's for the taking, and with it, the basis for a New Galactic Empire.

    I wonder if the old Imperial Palace is still standing....
     
    Darth Caliban and vncredleader like this.
  22. vncredleader

    vncredleader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Agreed. The Supremacy was their best use of their resources, Starkiller was an expensive tool for fear tactics, but in the end a glass cannon. It served it's role well, but honestly they need to fix the flagship asap. starkiller likely will never need replacing
     
    BigAl6ft6 and AusStig like this.
  23. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    I agree with your point about Hosnian Prime, but the idea of a galaxy being weary of war when there's been over 25 years of peace I'm not following. I could see some civil war veterans being dismayed by the First Order's attack, that a spectre they thought gone has returned worse than ever, with the other pole being 'we beat them once, we'll beat them again'. I think your idea works better if instead there's a galactic fear of war, that they had peace long enough to see and appreciate its benefits and do not want to lose those due to a bunch of total psychopaths.
     
    AusStig likes this.
  24. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Excellent point, Ben. It's probably more accurate to say as you point out that the galaxy is afraid of war. Afraid of losing the peace.

    --Adm. Nick
     
    vncredleader and Jedi Ben like this.
  25. AusStig

    AusStig Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2010
    Well I dislike how the ST has treated the ot characters and their achievements, so I don't think this is too far out of what we have seen so far, it also explains why people no longer have hope.

    Nick you say the NR has created 30 years of peace. How could they be weary of something they have not had for 30 years?

    if the NR has done all these great things then why is no one will to fight for it? (TLJ has the FO say all they need do is crush the Resistance fleet and they win, so the NR worlds seem to be already a non factor)

    Why does no one come to Leia's aid? (or even answer?)

    If the NR is good why does no one care when it is attacked? (Starkiller is destroyed so that should counter the fear)

    The only answer that I can see is that the NR ISN'T that good (or is not seen as good)

    We will see how things go in the next movie

    So now that war has returned, why will they not fight for it?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018