Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sterilization_of_Geonosis
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Antar_Atrocity
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Jedha_City
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Subjugation_of_the_Anoat_sector
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ghorman_Massacre
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Siege_of_Lasan
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Arrests_on_Christophsis
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_on_Mantooine
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Massacre_on_Kashyyyk
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Westhills_massacre
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dhen-Moh_genocides

And at the beginning of his speech in Bloodline, Leia's Senator friend says that billions died during the war.

We don't know the population of the planets destroyed, but again planets destroyed. You're comparing planets to "towns".

But we see tons of alien civilians in the background, even at the height of the Empire and after 20 years. So why assume all the aliens in the galaxy will instantly declare an Arkrai and fight to the death now?

Luke's line about the "new rebellion" beginning, and the fact that they'll need an army, shows that in the next movie we will see more people fighting the First Order.

It's true that overwhelming force and atrocities can galvanize people into action, but they can also terrify them into submission. It's only been a few weeks at most since Hosnian Prime. During the OT era, even after 20 years under the Empire, the Rebellion was still small. It dosn't mean that the average citizen didn't care, it means they were like Luke when he said "It's not like I like the Empire, I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now."

 

I'm told that there was something in Battlefront 2 as well:

 

Korr Sella was there representing a questionably legal private military formed by Darth Vaders daughter after a failed power grab.

I'd say the fact that she was able to get as far with her warning as talking with the chancellor meant she must have done a pretty good job.

 

Those links are not battles during the war. They are massacres and atrocities carried out before the war started. These should serve as inspiration for "NEVER AGAIN" and since a few of them are the destruction of non-human species. The NR should use this as ammunition for propaganda against the Empire or any neo-imperial forces, the fact they haven't (shown by the amount of support the FO has within the senate), shows how bad the NR is at selling their message.

Depends on how they count the war, if they include all the atrocities of the Empire, then yes billions died. just the war (starting at scarif say) then maybe only 1 billion died.

Also re: cinder, if it weren't for the strikes against Loyalist worlds then you might have a been an example. But with attacks on loyalist worlds it seems more like something insane and an attempt to just destroy stuff randomly. So while it is an atrocity, I don't know if you can say it's part of the war.

Yeah and? In Star Wars planets are cities and towns and sectors are like states. (though it is a bit blurry in some works)

Also in a geographic sense the planets were all in the same system, so it's not the same a 4 cities all around the country.

Well...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sterilization_of_Geonosis
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Antar_Atrocity
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Jedha_City
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Subjugation_of_the_Anoat_sector
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ghorman_Massacre
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Siege_of_Lasan
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Arrests_on_Christophsis
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_on_Mantooine
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Massacre_on_Kashyyyk
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Westhills_massacre
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dhen-Moh_genocides

Just look at how many of these are against aliens. Why would they not think that a force of even worse empire


Um Luke wasn't scared he just felt isolated "Alderaan is such a long way from here". It's more tyranny of distance then tyranny of the Empire stopping him from getting involved.

Also the Rebels were small cause they had to build up from scratch, at the end of the clone wars, the galaxy was either loyal or wrecked. The NR should have a major advantage over that.

As to the 'New Rebellion' we will see what the next movie brings.

Also note they call them selves rebels, not remnant. the NR is dead and they don't want to bring it back they are getting people to fight against the FO not fight for the NR. (like the allies in WW2 were against Germany and Japan, not for democracy or freedom)

 

For the thousandth time, while it's true that atrocities can galvanize people into action, they can also terrify them into submission. Saying "oh that atrocity dosn't count because it technically took place before the war officially started" is splitting hairs. Especially since in a lot of the massacres people were shooting back. And what does "shown by the amount of support the FO has within the senate" mean? We certainly see a lot of Centrists, but no where have heard that ALL Centrists joined the FO.

Your source for these figures? I think this assumption is ignoring all the off screen battles, the fact that we know there were large battles at Kuat and Jakku that lasted several days, and the fact that New Canon sources have been deliberately vague about the number of ships at Endor.

Isn't this " Moving the Goalposts"? You ask for genocides/atrocities besides Alderaan. I list some. You say they don't count because they happened before the war, not during the war. @Iron_lord points out one that did take place during the war, and you say it doesn't count as part of the war because the target was a loyalist world? Seems like a bit of an arbitrary distinction.

While it's true that " Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale ", that analogy seems simplistic to me. It's never been a hard rule for Star Wars, and it doesn't account for the fact that planets can have populations ranging from a trillion to a few hundred.

I don't think the location matters, I think the population and importance to the Republic matters. (Although I admit we don't know the population of the other planets. They could be dead worlds and the FO blew them up for show, but I doubt it).

Again, even after 20 years of Imperial species-ism, there were still alien civilians playing instruments in cantina or running a food stall. You think those kinds of people are going to instantly pick up a blaster and start shooting the first stormtrooper they see, just because they're not human? "Non human", a banner so broad it covers everyone from the meekest Chadra Fan to the most rageaholic Wookiee? From the most idealistic Mon Calamari to the most self serving Hutt? ALL of them should instantly take up arms against the FO, just because they're all aliens? Even when the system is against you (as the Imperial system was against aliens), not everyone chooses to fight the system. Some choose to just go about their lives and hope it ignores them. Speaking of which . . .

Different character interpretations, but Luke said that stuff when he was being offered the chance to go to Alderaan. So I think even though he talked a big game about fighting the Empire, he was reluctant to actually get involved until the Call To Action. As for the second part, as has been stated numerous times, the NR disarmed and underestimated the (hidden) strength of the First Order. And besides, I think there was a quote in The Essential Guide to Warfare about how the Rebels were only ever a small part of the galactic population.

"We are the spark, that'll light the fire, that will restore the Republic." - Vice Admiral Holdo

 

Yes that's why governments do them.

Also no it's not splitting hairs if your argument is that the war was so terrible it caused people to not want to fight ever again. That only works if people suffered in battles and as a result of the war or acts of war. IF the events were just part of the day to day life of the Empire, as most of your examples are, then it's not par of the war. It's like the massacres by Japan and the Nazis in WW2, they were events that took place in the war, but not really as a result of battles, as opposed to area bombing, which was a result of battles.

My point is that, as the Empire is so horrible then the fighting a suffering against it is justified and should not be seen in the negative, 'never fight again' way.

Also the actions of the Empire (the government of the galaxy) against it's own populace should elicit a different response to an outside group attacking their government.

So how many of them joined? %50 %75? Either way it's a decent amount of the Senate. Also the fact that people in such a position of power 30 years after the war is also really bad.

Well again there is a difference between the actions of a government against it's own people would get a different response to an outside group attacking. People aren't always eager to fight to change things, but they are willing to fight to not lose something.

I expect that the great alien powers, the Mon Cal, Wookies, Hutts/Nikto, would fight back and resist being pulled back into a new empire.

She was dead by the time Luke spoke about the New Rebellion. Also the people she is speaking to, by the end of the film don't even fill the falcon, if they want help they will need more people. By the end of the TLJ the NR is dead and the failure of the OT heroes is complete.

 

@AusStig Again, you keep " Moving the Goalposts". You claim that the Resistance dosn't want to restore the Republic. I point out an example of a Resistance leader explicitly saying they want to restore the Republic. And your response is "She was dead by the time Luke spoke about the New Rebellion.", as if her dying somehow means that doesn't count?

And for the third time, of course the Resistance is going to be more than the people in the Falcon in the next movie. Even the most cynical fan in the world would admit that a) Star Wars tends to have war/battle scenes b) they'll need to make more ships in order to sell more toys. It's no different from how the Rebellion in ESB and ROTJ was larger than what we saw in ANH.

For the other stuff, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the reaction of the galactic populace is justified, you think it isn't.

 

So then who are the "allies" that Leia spoke of? If these allies chose to get involved, are they strong enough to prevail against the First Order...or is the Resistance really the only thing standing in between them and galactic domination?

 

I quite like the idea that the First Order basically set everything up for the most extreme application of the Tarkin doctrine ever, including invasion fleets to do a multiple blitzkrieg a la Operation Shadow Hand and then has nothing to deal with a counter-offensive.

It's very Thrawn, but the idea that First Order soldiers are psychologically incapable of handling counter-attacks would be quite delicious.

 

I am not moving the goalposts, you keep cherry picking points and claim they represnt everything. At the end of the movie (after Holdo is dead) they stop talking about restoring the Republic, Poe's speech is how they will become the spark that "Burns the First Order count" and he is the leader of the Resistance at the end of the movie.

Well yes honestly, she is dead and so she is no longer a leader and her views seem to have died with her. See Poe's speech.

Well that is what we think. I am not saying anything either way. We may see a big space battle (I would agree with and say it is likely with JJ directing), or we may not, might only be a small battle to destroy Starkiller Base 2.

I think we just see different justifications for their actions.

But yes agree to disagree

 

Your argument doesn't hold a lot of water. Just because Poe doesn't explicitly say "We are the spark that will restore the Republic AND burn the First Order" or Luke doesn't say "The Rebellion to restore the Republic is reborn" doesn't mean that isn't exactly what they are referring to. It implied and obvious.

Take Luke's statement. "Rebellion" is short hand for "Alliance to Restore the Republic". Of which Luke was a member. So, when Jedi Master Luke Skywalker refers to a rebellion being "reborn", it's not that hard to see the connection to a new Rebellion having the very same goal of restoring the Republic.

I'll add, Poe Dameron referring to himself as part of the Republic Fleet and Admiral Holdo explicitly saying that the Resistance would restore the Republic should be as clear an indication as ANY that the good guys, whether they are called the New Rebellion or the Resistance in IX, are fighting to restore the New Republic.

*****

Switching gears entirely, I was thinking a lot about Corellia. Specifically, that in the new canon it is described (per SOLO) as a gritty industrial world. I'm starting to suspect that Corellia didn't fare exceptionally well under the Empire. I'm imaging it being the Core World equivalent of Lothal - a formerly pristine world that had a manufacturing base that was utterly exploited by the Empire. Corellia's history as a shipbuilder is already established in canon, but I suspect Imperial authorities probably dropped all environmental or safety restrictions in an effort to increase output.

It will be interesting to see in SOLO, as it would be an example of a prominent Core World faring poorly under the Empire. It would also explain why Corellia threw it's lot in with the New Republic so quickly after Endor, as it was a world that suffered under the Empire. It's a different outlook from what we saw in the old EU, but I rather like the direction they are going.

Thoughts?

--Adm. Nick

 

I'm of two minds about Corellia.

On the one hand, we've all heard the jokes about how in Star Wars planets only have one type of environment. (Ice planet, jungle planet, lava planet, city planet, ect.). Legends Corellia was a prominent example of an exception to that rule. So I'm not too fond of them turning it into a generic "polluted industrial world".

On the other hand, I've liked the New Canon portrayal of the Empire strip mining/over industrializing to fuel the Imperial war machine. (Sure it happened in Legends too, but I feel like it's more prominent in the New Canon, between Lost Stars/Princess of Alderaan and Lothal).

So I'm ok with it as long as portrayals of Corellia taking place before the Empire have it be a little more sunnier.

 

Wouldn't that be giving Duro's old legends back story to Corellia?

As to the Empire destorying environments. Eh, always felt a bit Glove of Darth Vader to me. So I am not a fan

Also @AdmrialNick22

I read that to part of the whole 'let the past die' theme of the movie.

 

A water burn......a splash?

 

I always figured the Empire left the Core relatively alone. The Core is where much of the wealth and power reside. So whatever status we see with Corellia ecologically or whatever would be what it has been for a while...probably even back to before the Clone Wars.

Alderaan is an exception and due to the fact that the planet was found to be in rebellion against the Empire. However I do not see The Empire pulling on Chandrila or Hosnian Prime or Alsakan what it is doing on Lothal or Jelucan.

 

It's important to note that Lothal invited the Empire in, and it only went full occupational duty when Rebels started becoming a problem.

 

However the end result was going to be the same...strip mining and ecological devastation. Same on Jelucan....they were welcomed with open arms.

 

Corellia's history is a mostly blank slate in the current canon. We know it's a famous starship producer, we know it's located in the Core Worlds, we know it was a member of the Galactic Republic, we know it was controlled by the Empire and later joined the New Republic. Beyond that, we really don't have much information in the new canon.

I suspect it's interactions with the Empire are gonna be less than stellar. The fact it jumped so quickly into the New Republic's arms post-Endor implies that it wasn't exactly thrilled with Imperial control. Considering that Palpatine's military build-up started shortly after the Clone Wars, it's possible that the ecological state has been significantly altered in the 18 years +/- between ROTS and ANH.

I'm beyond excited to Corellia on screen. It makes sense why it was mostly avoided in the NEU before this. They wanted the big reveals to be saved for the SOLO movie.

--Adm. Nick

 

That would be a major change from Legends. Didn't Legends Corellia always have a desire for independence/autonomism, or Imperial-associated leaders (the Diktat, Thrackan Sal-Solo)?

 

Is Corellia known to be a polluted industrial hellscape, or is that just hyperbole and speculation? All I’ve found is the description of the Most Wanted novel, which just describes it as “industrial” without any qualifiers.

 

Not a hellscape, but I seem to recall "gloomy industrial" being used in a recent announcement of a book. Basically, a gray, industrial, and Rust Belt feeling kinda place. I think the whole "polluted" angle is more speculation and based on what we've seen the Empire doing in the new canon.

--Adm. Nick

 

Would rather Corellia be more like earth....differing terrain and environments...and included in that some places with urban sprawl and over industrialized. As well as orbiting shipyards. And give us a planet that evolved all 3 races....Drall, Selonian and Human.

 

Not to mention all the shots from the trailer that show a planet with gray skies and steel/concrete everywhere.

Granted most of this is coming from secondary sources like the New Essential Chronology or my readings on Wookieepedia, but I think the Legends portrayal of Corellia was sort of erratic. You've got Garm as a founder of the Alliance (the founding document is even called the Corellian Treaty), and you've got lots of Rebel characters who are Corellian, but then at other times it seems more sinister and/or isolationist.

 

For what it's worth, you've also got the Star Wars mainline comic book's depiction of Cymoon I as a gloomy, polluted, over-industrialized world existing in the "Corellian Industrial Cluster."