Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

If you think about it the whole Hosnian debacle could have been avoided if the NR kept up with the times and built their own superlasers. If you compare superlasers to real life nuclear weapons the Rebels seem like a bunch of clownish luddites for not picking up on the tech.

 

The problem with that analogy is they're weapons designed to kill civilians and civilians alone. You can make a better turbo-laser but the energy expenditure for superlasers is purely designed to kill innocents.

It comes back to the "Fanon" First Order versus "Canon" First Order. The Fanon First Order is a bunch of blithering incompetents while Canon First Order actually is incredibly good at its job and has a massive network of spies, informers, and super-tech.

In this case, what purpose would be to continue undermining the New Republic and turning its allies against itself.

 

It would mostly serve as a deterrent. But there is "clean" ways to use them. Some worlds like Scarif are purely military. Superlasers can single out space stations and warships too. But no matter the ultimate target it would mostly serve as a deterrent to ward off something like the First Order.

 

I think that it could easily go either way. As a military junta, the FO could either try to rule over the remains of the NR through military might or set up a new puppet regime of Centrist senators - ultimately subservient to the military hierarchy - so as not to have to deal with the minutiae of galactic governance.

I want to like your analogy, but at the end of the day, the doctrine of mutually assured destruction only works because Earth’s major powers know where to aim their retaliatory nukes in the case of Armageddon. The New Republic didn’t know about SKB. It felt that there was no reason to even anticipate such a weapon.

 

Not to mention that SKB can move, and even destroying it wont do much to the FO overall cause their fleets are totally mobile. They don't even have a homeworld. The Supremacy is their coruscant

 

Unlike Palpatine, I don’t see Snoke or Ren as politicians. And after setting up the Empire, he delegated to Mas and the bureaucracy, though he did intervene in Lords of the Sith, ANH, and ROTJ.

 

Deterrents are useless against fanatics. What would have saved the New Republic would have been the reestablishment of the Jedi Order. Without the Shroud of the Dark Side clouding the Force, the New Jedi Council would have been able to sense the rising power of the First Order and warned the New Republic in time to stop them. If only Luke hadn't been an abject failure.

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How is that any different than nuclear weapons?


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The New Republic didn't believe the Resistance.

 

Many nuclear weapons are specifically designed to be used against hardened military targets. "Bunker busters".

Superlasers, however, don't just blow up a base - they wreck the planet underneath that base.

 

For the NR...I could see a ship killer super laser...or something to target a ground based military target....but not a planet killer.

 

Well, now that they know the FO has no defense against the Holdo method they could just start sticking automated hyperdrives on asteroids and pointing them at the FO fleet.

Low cost with a potential massive payoff.

Edit: Its possible the hyperspace ram may turn out to be like the YV moon drop from Vector Prime. Something thats easy to stop and only works the first time because the enemy didn't know it was coming. Still, its a minimal investment that could win the whole war.

 

Plus that it all happens in more or less a week!

Explanation requires a plan. TLJ has shown that there nowhere near as much of one as any of us thought. Plus the insanely compressed timetable of both films.

I think it undeniable and unarguable that there isn't a massive opportunity for various ti-ins but I'm sceptical as to how realised it'll be due to the lack of planning. That and Abrams' tendency towards absolute secrecy.

 

But they would have believed the word of the reestablished Jedi Council. Especially Grand Master Skywalker.

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Yeah, that's the other thing I meant to mention. We're literally in the very opening stages of the war. I'm still convinced that the entire ST will take place over a matter of weeks at most. The war may well end (assuming our heroes are victorious) before it really gets fully underway. Even the best government would need time to reorganize and get a plan together.

--Adm. Nick

 

Why would they believe the Jedi if they didn't believe Leia Freaking Organa?

 

To be fair, it seems that the Senate was slowly coming around to the Resistance's viewpoint. The fact that they were still talking to the Resistance and allowed Korr Sella to come to Hosnian Prime to meet with the Chancellor tells us that the NR wasn't totally ignoring them. Plus there is a sizable minority of senators who support the Resistance in open or secretly, so it's more about the NR being torn on whether to support the Resistance openly/fully or not.

--Adm. Nick

 

I'm trying to avoid the comparisons to real life debates as I ended up in a 20 page debate on the Black Panther forum about religion, imperialism, and identity politics. However, generally, nuclear weapons have as many downsides as they have upsides because their best benefits work with rational actors. We've had a half century of encountering people who are not rational actors and the threat of complete destruction or genocide hangs over any nation which has them.

In the case of the United States, the possession of nuclear weapons makes them a target for any nation with them as well.

I'd also, WWLLT in this with "What would Leia and Luke think?" Bel Iblis might advocate a use of the Sun Crusher but Luke and Leia would think that would essentially turn the Republic into the Empire. The entire argument of the Death Star is that it will prevent future wars by terrifying systems into compliance but that only works if you're willing to murder billions and trillions to punish the few ala Alderaan.

Re: The New Republic Senate

I've forwarded the position the New Republic was engaged in "dagger behind the back" politics. I fully believe the New Republic probably was supporting the Resistance as a means of undermining the First Order while suspecting they had treaty violations but attempting to avoid a full scale war by declaring the Resistance to be rogues or an independent organization. That requires us to take Hux at his word but it makes a lot more sense in our Post-War on Terror world than it would, say, in the 1970s.

It's also supported by the movie and text.

The problem was that Leia wanted a full scale war against the First Order and the First Order found this covert war every bit as objectionable as the reverse.

 

"The self-taught son of a Sith Lord who founded his own Jedi Order who claims to have been taught by two legendary Jedi Masters but has no independent confirmation says the First Order is bad."

Luke: FAKE NEWS!

 

Certainly that was the way Mon Mothma seemed to be thinking:

She paused to take a long breath, and Wedge worried that she might lose her nerve. But Qwi straightened her slender form and spoke again. "I urge you to destroy the Sun Crusher. A weapon of such power should not be trusted in the hands of any government."
Mon Mothma looked weak and weary as she gazed down at Qwi. Below and to her left, old General Jan Dodonna spoke up. "Dr. Xux, according to reports from our engineers, this weapon cannot be destroyed. The quantum armor makes it impossible for us even to dismantle it."
"Then you must find some other way to dispose of the Sun Crusher," Qwi said.
Sounding flustered, Senator Garm Bel-Iblis, Mon Mothma's old nemesis, rose to his feet. "We cannot allow a weapon of such power to slip out of our grasp," he said. "With the Sun Crusher, we have a tactical advantage available to none of our Imperial enemies."
"Enough," Mon Mothma said in a quavering voice. Her cheeks were flushed, which served to highlight the pallor of her skin. "We have debated this many times," she said, "and my opinion stands unchanged. A weapon of such hideous destructive power is a brutal and inhuman device. The Emperor might have been monster enough to consider using it, but under no circumstances will the New Republic be party to such barbarism. We have no need for such a weapon, and its presence only serves to divide us. I shall veto any attempts to study the Sun Crusher further, and I will fight to my last breath any of you who suggest using it against any foe, Imperial or otherwise."

 

There's also the RL element of nuclear weapons which exists with the Death Star as well in-universe.

In RL, a huge amount of American power exists because of nuclear weapon but it means they are forced to rely on that threat and everyone wants one as well because they want that threat.

The end of the Empire began not with Alderaan and Jedha's destruction but with their use and THEN the Death Star's destruction.

 

Exactly. If she hid that for thirty years, what else is she hiding? How can the Senate believe anything she says when she lied about the most important part of her past?

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Why should a sperm supplier matter more to Leia than her adoptive father, Bail Organa?

When Leia says Bail is her father, she considers that to be the case. Fatherhood is more than blood and sperm supply, as many adopted people would agree with. Add in that Vader is the abusive parent from hell, who tortured his own daughter and had no qualms about corrupting her to the dark side if he could and rationally, the criticism collapses. It should be blindingly obvious why Leia took the position she did. Plus the record that shows she was raised by the Organas, Vader only entered her life much later - as a demon.

Also, in that whole sequence, out of sheer fear, the NR Senators betray the constitutional principles they swore to uphold, in that they do decide to judge Leia for the sins of her genetic father, despite her having lead a rebellion against him. Leia hated Vader, that the NR Senate chooses to not see that reflects badly on them, not Leia.

I wouldn't have been surprised if afterwards the same Senate then decided to investigate Luke Skywalker, in case he was working with the Emperor as a double agent because he too decided not to tell them that the demon who destroyed his life on Tattooine, killed those he viewed as his parents, his then teacher and hounded him across the galaxy turned out to be his Dad.

 

"It's not up to us to decide what the voters get to use in evaluating us."
"A little odd, coming from someone who wasn't exactly completely open about his health."
"That was a big mistake."
"Was it? What did we know about Lincoln's health when he was running? Washington? Jefferson? What about FDR? And when he died in office, did people say 'gee, why didn't he tell us he was sick?' No. Did they say 'I wish I didn't vote for him?' No."

(Not exactly the same situation as a health problem, but similar enough that that's generally my sentiment).