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Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Sep 6, 2015.

  1. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    How so? As far as I'm concerned they're far more character-driven than plot-driven. There's not a broad, over-arching story–although between the two, I'd say TFA is more plot-driven. TLJ is more character-driven of the two. Everything in the Resistance plot happens because of Poe, Rose, and Finn. The Force plot happens, literally, because of Snoke; he connects Rey and Kylo initially. The rest of it happens because of the characters, too–Kylo's emotions and manipulation, Rey's attempts to redeem Kylo, Luke's guilt. Yeah, I'd say TLJ is pretty character-driven.
     
  2. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Except I can't buy any of it - it lacks credibility for me - that Rey attempts to redeem Kylo, mere days after he kidnapped, tortured and tried to kill her.

    I'm being told by TLJ it's about the characters, that they get moved here, here and here but the hand moving the pieces is a bit too obvious. It's too artificial.
     
  3. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on it!
     
  4. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    That part of it, I get. The rest of the characters, I really feel have credible arcs (if, in Finn's case, a bit under-played). Rey's reasoning for wanting to redeem Kylo really should've been fleshed out, and that's probably one of my problems with TLJ. However, I think that it was explained (but too quickly skipped over) in Snoke's throne room scene, when he said that he stoked the conflict in Kylo when he bonded Rey and Kylo. So basically, Rey sensed that conflict that Snoke was stirring up in Kylo, making her more sympathetic. Were she a normal person with no special abilities, I'd imagine she would have no desire to redeem him. But because she sensed conflict, like Luke with Vader, she decided he could be redeemed. One of the bad parts about empathetic abilities, I guess. So it worked for me, but I thought it should've been better explained, and so I understand why people dislike it.
     
  5. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    She also knows Luke had the mother of all miscommunications with his apprentice.
     
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  6. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Ben offered to teach her.
     
  7. Revanfan1

    Revanfan1 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2013
    Well, that's true. It's been too long since I've seen it, but from what I recall, she kept telling Kylo to go away up until she heard his story about what happened with Luke.
     
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  8. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    TLJ is character-focused, it really doesn't have a story beyond "Evacuate to Safety! Rey, either convince Luke or Kylo to help!" it's just not good at it.

    Incompetent personalities that you ridicule, don't really fear.

    And I count two among the living: Kylo and Hux.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
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  9. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    dp
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2018
  10. mattman8907

    mattman8907 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2012
    please what trouble did Luke and Leia cause? They both spent the majority of their lives trying to restore balance to the galaxy. Leia = NR and Luke = The Jedi. They would've have succeeded had it not been Snoke coming out of the woodwork and causing trouble.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  11. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Rey is The Scavenger. Her desire to bring back Ben Solo is a practical one first and foremost (though I imagine the "Force bond" between them is doing a fair deal to cloud her thinking). Look at her relationship with Unkar Plutt; she is more than accustomed to working with someone odious in order to survive. The Force has dragged her into an arena where trading scrap for portions isn't going to be enough anymore, she needs a teacher, and as far as she is aware there are only two people in the entire galaxy who can be that for her.
     
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  12. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    I don't think the Force bond is clouding her thinking - she wants to save Ben because she's seen into the parts of him worth saving.
     
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  13. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 25, 2014
    It might just be my bias showing, but the "parts worth saving" REALLY just feel like another part of the manipulation. Like, his Rashomon scene is a straight up lie (He attacked me for no reason! That's why I murdered all of his students and became a fascist!), he says he didn't hate his father which really just makes it worse that he murdered him, he hesitates on murdering his mother when he knows someone else will do it, but doesn't hesitate when he's the Supreme Leader and actually has control, and then he can't even seduce Rey to the dark side without first telling her she's "nothing."

    She understands that too, I think, which is why the movie ends with her slamming the door in his face. He's had more chances than most to come back, and he keeps refusing them. He can rot with Palpatine and Snoke and all the other monsters now.
     
  14. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Oh I absolutely agree with you on the end of the movie, but I think it's because Kylo doubles down on being a jerk instead of getting better. I don't think Ben is ever lying to Rey, but when she rejects the path he wants to go down he throws a tantrum and goes full bore dark side. I don't think the Kylo we see at the end of the movie is feeling the pull of the light as much as Kylo at the beginning of the movie, but before the throne room the conflict and potential Rey feels in him is real.

    I still think Ben is going to end Episode IX by sacrificing himself for Rey.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
  15. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 25, 2014
    That is an assessment fairly come to, I'll have to see if it changes how I see things when the Blu-ray comes out next week.
     
  16. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    With them developing a theme that anyone can be special, I'm kind of expecting Rey to go off to defeat Kylo Ren in a heroic self-sacrifice, and then Finn just shoots him to death to save Rey.
     
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  17. TheAvengerButton

    TheAvengerButton Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2011
    I don't know if "anyone can be special" is particularly a new idea, but you're right that this new trilogy is really bringing that aspect of things to the forefront.

    On another note, upon re-watching this film I have to say that my favorite moments involve seeing the older First Order officers that were once young Imperials. It's a nice connect to the original trilogy. I would love more material from the eyes of these old dog Imperials in the thirty year peace.
     
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  18. Voltron64

    Voltron64 Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2009
    Again, I want him to die realizing how he pretty much threw everything away by turning to the dark side.
     
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  19. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    The stuff in the novelization from Canady's point of view is

    [​IMG]
     
  20. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    @BobaMatt

    Yeah, seeing this dynamic between First Order officers who served in the old Empire and the young officers who know nothing but the First Order is stuff I want more of. It's interesting, as the old Imperial loyalists are themselves "hardliners" from the prior generation... but they still seem less rabid than the young neo-fascists. With Snoke dead and Kylo Ren the new Supreme Leader, I wonder what these old Imperial officers are gonna think of their regime... [face_thinking]

    --Adm. Nick
     
  21. mattman8907

    mattman8907 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2012
    Personally they both can go down a black hole. Imperials First Orderians, it doesn't matter, they are downright evil. cause what average joe goes "you know what i like seeing billions of people under the rule of a tyrant?"
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2018
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  22. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Hence why I noted they are all hardliners. These old school Imperials are generationals who served in the Republic Navy. They themselves were young, fanatically loyal Imperial hardliners when the Empire fell at Jakku.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  23. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Kylo Ren believes 100% he's the good guy in all of this and that's the interesting part of his character.
     
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  24. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Not sure how much I have to contribute but the recent direction has made for a fun read.

    Interesting idea, but did Unkar ever inflict the kind of violations on her that Ren did?

    Unkar's a bastard certainly, but he seems to be a pragmatic bastard you can work with.
     
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  25. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Not sure how he could justify the Hosnian Cataclysm. Or killing the defenseless villagers on Jakku.

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