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Lit From Endor to Exegol - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (Tagged Victory's Price Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Sep 6, 2015.

  1. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I get the idea that Leia screwed up the plan and forced it to happen much earlier.

    So only like 8-10 Sectors (i.e. the Legends Imperial Remnant) suceeded.

    Which is why nobody took it seriously as a threat.
     
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  2. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Casterflo is the embodiment of what you're saying and he was framed for murder then executed. My idea is the First Order "purges" of all of the good Centralists right before the secession.
     
  3. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Retired Fleet Admiral star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    One point that many of you are all overlooking- not all Centrist senators are First Order spies. As of Bloodline, the First Order was still hidden. Most Centrist worlds and senators had legitimate views on how the New Republic could improve. Being a Centrist doesn't mean that they aren't loyal to the New Republic, it just simply means that they have a different view on how to govern and what they think is required to solve the issues the government is facing.

    The Coruscant senator is hawkish and pro-NRDF, but that doesn't make him a warmonger. Centrist senators respect Leia's war record. In short, the Centrists aren't "bad guys" as a whole. The First Order didn't create Centrists, they merely used the growing political divide in the New Republic to suit their purposes. Sure, there are geunine Imperial nostalgics and actual FO spies among their ranks, but that doesn't mean every senator is. They used the Centrists and exploited their fears about the NR being weak. Hence why, when the secession happens, many worlds then join the First Order, which "reveals" itself to the Galaxy.

    I'll add- the secession of Centrist worlds helps the First Order regardless of whether those world's joined them or not. Anything that divided the Galaxy and weakened the New Republic ultimately helps the First Order. In the case of Coruscant, it may well have seceded. It may just as likely be under siege by the First Order, bereft of support from the New Republic and isolated due to it's huge needs on food, supplies, etc.

    The First Order's aim was to weaken the Galaxy for invasion. Knocking out the Senate and the Home Fleet was just the final blow before the invasion could begin essentially unopposed.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  4. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It's all really unclear. The first sources we got made it look like the Empire retained the Core Worlds and there was some sort of long cold war, and the First Order came out of it. That version didn't last very long. Then we had sources that essentially implied that most of known space belonged to the New Republic, but the fringes went to the First Order.

    Then Bloodline came around, and spread Centrist and Populist worlds all over the place. We had no certainty, save for that the NR capital (per TFA and the book) was in the Core Worlds. The Propaganda book suggested an entire wing of the New Republic, consisting largely of former Imperial holdouts or something, may have turned over -- but everything we've gotten in the TLJ period again suggests that the FO's known worlds are all in the New Territories.

    Coruscant is a big question mark. The NR let Amedda rule there because they did not want to mess with the entrenched Imperial power base. By Bloodline, the world was represented by two Centrists but at least one of them admires Leia's war record (and I'm with Batman and Nick -- nothing about the FO tells me that they have any sort of respectful admiration for adversaries). There are offhand references to Coruscant in other books, mostly from Resistance characters, but nothing definitive.

    If Coruscant were First Order, it wouldn't seem entirely out of the blue. But I think it unlikely. I also cannot see the world being enthusiastically pro-NR either, given what the NR did to it.

    If I were to guess, Coruscant was Centrist because it was pining for the good old days -- the good old days when it was the center. Empire or Republic, that isn't the issue: Coruscant cares about Coruscant. And I think that Coruscant's senators would have pushed a more centralized NR to put Coruscant back in the driving seat, even if not as a throneworld.
     
  5. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think the big question boils down to it is "Is the First Order North Korea or is the First Order the Russian Federation?"

    We know the First Order possesses a vast HAND OF THRAWN-esque military Empire founded in the Unknown Regions by Grand Admiral Sloane that apparently conquered and annexed a huge amount of territory and resources. However, the public First Order's size is completely unknown. It's apparently large enough that Leia suspects it's a major threat and it's able to buy vast amounts of state of the art military hardware. However, other people are completely dismissive of its danger (but that was when the books were first releases).

    How many worlds defected and what were their power level?

    Is it a huge chunk of the Republic and Core Worlds or just a tiny Pentastar Alignment?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
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  6. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    the First Order is the Alt-Right Fantasy, with all the flaws of being run by the people of the Alt-Right
     
  7. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I wonder if the Alt-Right's rise and the creation of people like the DarkSider Fandom has affected our reception of the First Order.

    Kylo Ren, like Jacen, might not seem quite so irredeemable.

    Certainly Jacen had many people clamoring for his redemption.
     
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  8. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    While I would like to think not all Centrist Senators were FO agents, I think Bloodline was trying to imply that a the very least a lot of them were. Leia's internal monologue even shifts over the course of the novel from stuff like "Just because these people want a central authority doesn't mean they're Imperials" to "My god, it turns out the Centrists have always wanted war!" (not "some Centrists" or "Centrist extremists" but "the Centrists").

    The Centrist senators who admire Leia does hint towards some nuance, and we know there's different factions in the Populists and Centrist camps. But the way Casterfo is singled out implies he's the only moderate Centrist, and other parts of the novel emphasize how unwilling to find middle ground the two parties are. So the jury is still out for me. I'm getting mixed signals.

    I don't remember a scene of Kylo Ren and Captain Phasma carrying Tiki Torches on Starkiller Base.
     
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  9. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think the Centralists were meant to have a valid position but they've been infiltrated and subverted.
     
  10. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    The Centrists = the French reactionary right who ended up being Nazi collaborators after the country surrendered? That might be how things end up, especially after TLJ.

    In other words, perhaps they weren’t originally all fascists but it it may end up turning into a moot point as they turn into enablers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  11. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I'm inclined to think that the Centralists who weren't evil will all be dead or arrested after secession. The First Order once they've divided the Republic will simply arrest and replace whoever they need.
     
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  12. MercenaryAce

    MercenaryAce Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2005
    The interesting thing was that Leia actually came across as having a lot of Centralist sentiments herself and was mostly in the other party for personal reasons. Also that if more centralist positions had been adopted, the FO wouldn't have it so easy.

    By subverting them, the FO really put itself in a win-win situation.
     
  13. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 26, 2017
    That's interesting -- I very much like the ST but I've tended to think that its forward momentum is very much the SW mythology with new developments and variations... and that it doesn't have the political-allegory-for-its-times aspect to nearly the extent that the OT and especially PT did. But this developing backstory stuff? It most certainly does.

    I doubt that any of this will end up on screen; I still see the main threads of the ST as mythic and personal. But it does put more of a current-events-tinged spin on the era in a big way.
     
  14. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Really the end problem is the complete absence of world-building and lore. I'm sure some of those us who dislike the direction of Disney's canon would have a lot of our criticisms taken back if we just had some sort of explanation and not an eternal mystery box. I hoped for TLJ to shed some light on things, but it really didn't. The Poe Dameron comics displayed a largely 'empty' SW Galaxy, without a hit of NR presence on places like Neimoidia. At points it seemed like a Mad Max-tier Galaxy with no overarching authority and the First Order running wild. This would've been an interesting concept, but I'm sure that's not the intent here.

    On the FO, we don't really have a lot to go on by their leadership. The NR is a lot clearer, since Bloodline expanded on it (really, the only lore expansion since. We haven't gotten anything new). But for the FO, there's just Snoke, Kylo and Hux. I doubt that's the entirety of their bureaucracy. I hope Resistance will shed some light on matters. I never liked Rebels because of well.. no need to retrace the steps, I already said in its thread, but to its credit it did give us some expansion on things (how Sheev appears to regular people of the Galaxy for one, the Imperial March as an official Imperial Anthem etc).
     
  15. PCCViking

    PCCViking Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014
    The Last Jedi novelization hinted that Snoke may have purged some of the old Imperial remnant while building the First Order. He talks about Rax, Sloane, and someone else in the past tense. Whether he played Sloane off against someone else, or just eliminated her directly remains to be seen. Apparently, Canady is one of the few Imperial-era officers left in the First Order.

    I think Snoke just took Rax's plan of purging and reshaping the Empire to the extreme (or continued it).
     
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  16. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think it's increasingly clear the First Order's history is being written one line at a time and subject to change because no one actually cares about it at the House of Mouse. They never bothered to come up with a history of the First Order any more than they did for Snoke, Kylo Ren, or other characters.

    So, we have a rough appropriation of a history which has been filled in bit by bit which isn't very interesting or dramatic.

    1. Grand Admiral Sloane, Papa Hux, and a few other Imperials are the heads of the First Order founded in the Unknown Regions.
    2. Snoke eventually joins them.
    3. There's a bunch of power struggles between the various sides. Phasma kills Papa Hux for Baby Hux.
    4. Snoke wins it. He goes to recruit Ben somehow.
    5. The End.

    I note Canady and the other Old School Imperials are lower ranked and serving as mid-level officers rather than the leadership.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
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  17. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    What's wrong with letting the "House of Mouse" take its time and build a little mystery around Snoke and the origins of the FO? Sometimes it feels like fans want Story Group to just edit Wookieepedia and fill it all in instead of revealing backstory through, you know, actual stories. Folks forget sometimes how long it took the EU to build up the foundation of lore and backstory they now want given to them right out of the gate. There's nothing wrong with letting the ST era breathe a little before they answer all the questions.
    A power struggle between Sloane, Snoke, and Hux for control of the FO, set against the backdrop of the Unknown Regions and whatever threats lurk there, with Snoke's story also tied to goings on in the larger galaxy with Han, Leia, Luke, Ben, and Lor San Tekka, and it falls into the category of "not very interesting or dramatic"? I beg to disagree. That's a story I'm looking forward to with great anticipation - but I am willing to wait for it.
     
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  18. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Mind you, I think the worst threat of the Unknown Regions is the First Order.
     
  19. Clone_Cmdr_Wedge

    Clone_Cmdr_Wedge Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2006
    My take, re: Centralists and the First Order is that while all the First Order sympathizers/Neo-Imperials were Centralists, not all Centralists were FO sympathizers. Based on that, my guess would be that Snoke or whoever from the FO sent emissaries under the guise of "lobbyists" (for lack of a better term) who would end up talking politics with various Centralist senators to figure out who was just the "strong central government, but loyal to the New Republic" types versus the "Let's make the Empire great again!" Neo-Imperial types.

    So I guess Snoke just found this guy and had him do his thing, you could say:

    [​IMG]
    :p
     
  20. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    Just because it hasn't been tackled yet doesn't mean it's a "mystery box." The fact that Resistance is coming out soon seems to more or less solidify that once IX is out it's going to be open season on the interim years.
     
  21. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    pssss.... it's "Centrist", NOT "Centralist" :p
     
  22. TheAvengerButton

    TheAvengerButton Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2011
    I think the fear of the ST's storytelling, at least for me, is less that they aren't answering the questions now and more, I don't know if they are ever going to answer the questions raised. I think if the films are going to raise questions like this, then they need to be addressed in the films and not in any side stories.

    And mind you, I love the new trilogy thus far. I'm just worried that we aren't going to get answers.
     
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  23. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    This is what I find strange about the ST - the story changes drastically from medium to medium. The way the FO is presented in Phasma or the TLJ novel, or its origins in the Afternath trilogy, sketch out a far more interesting story than what, for me, either TFA or TLJ supplied. In this respect, it has much in common with the PT - flawed films to be sure, but it had great Lit material and, for me, the ST is going the same way.

    For myself, getting the key stories out quicker can only help TLJ in the way various stories helped TFA. I can't really quantify how much Before the Awakening, Aftermath trilogy, Bloodline and probably some others improved my viewing of TFA but I'm certain it all added up to a big positive boost.

    Much like the back story the TLJ novel sketches, it could be great but it needs development, ditto material for TLJ. The difficulty is there's far less leeway to fit it in, due to the time - or lack of - between TFA-TLJ, so logically picking up the story from the end of TLJ would be the next step, but they won't do that due to Ep IX so TLJ is left to swim frantically in the deep end of the pool.
     
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  24. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Guest

    And to be fair, how do you think LFL think any of this is a problem...I mean sure we on forums/twitter/fan world we want our answers and lore and what not but most general audiences just wanna know what happened to Luke (Which I guess technically you need backstory for but we got the bulk of it in TLJ) and what happens to Rey/Finn/Poe and Kylo. And lets face it folks, General Audiences make the bulk of the big bucks.

    But back on topic

    I like the idea of the FO being small but powerful....Basically they lack the numbers but they have the firepower and that it wasn't that the First Order is strong ...It's more you have a weak enemy fighting a weaker enemy and basically it's going to take the Good guys to grow in strength in size before they can take on the FO and take them on once and for all.

    In fact the more i think about it the ST reminds me a lot of this Big Finish Doctor Who Spin-Off series called Dalek Empire

    The premise that the Daleks from another Galaxy invade our Galaxy and it takes a small band of hero's to stop them. But they don't win until after the Daleks have already conquered our Galaxy...It also involves Daleks from another universe, mind links and what not, but the basic premise is sort of the same.

    Strangely came out around the same time as the NJO series as well..Hmmmm
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2018
  25. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    That seemed to be way of it in TFA certainly, with them relying on the Starkiller, but then we have TLJ's opening crawl that says Snoke has legions that he has unleashed, then a Mega Star Destroyer shows up, with 30-odd Star Destroyer escorts and the film hints that a multi-pronged invasion across numerous systems is also underway.

    So, how to reconcile this? I suspect Ep IX might play the "overextended" card. That the FO did have the resources to do all they have done but only for a short, finite time and they were banking on a swift blitzkrieg victories.
     
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