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Lit From Endor to Jakku - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (TLJ Novelization Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Sep 6, 2015.

  1. PCCViking

    PCCViking Force Ghost star 10

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Taking out Starkiller Base hurt them more than they're letting on. If it was still around, they could afford to take the slower approach, play the long view game, especially with Hosnian Prime being destroyed.

    But with SB being taken out, they must strike now before their enemies can rally their forces.
     
  2. TheAvengerButton

    TheAvengerButton Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 11, 2011
    I don't think it's that contradictory. From what it appears, the FO flourishes when it is unchallenged and with the FO's carefulness not to get into a war with the New Republic, it all suggests that they may not have the numbers to sustain all out war, which is why they only deployed their legions to the major systems AFTER the Republic's head was cut off.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  3. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    That's how I sorta buy it. Again to me it's more like two really weak opponents that sickly going at it and the only reason the FO is winning right now is not because they are strong but there opponents are weak and the institutions just sorta weren't up to snuff at that point. Which is definitely something you could play with in books and what not, but i think it's easy to buy (At least for me) while watching TFA/TLJ back to back.
     
  4. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    I respectfully disagree. Movies should be films first, not info dumps of background information. Furthermore, it would be silly to try and establish all the backstory for the First Order (or even the New Republic) before the Sequel Trilogy is finished. Hell, even in the days of the Expanded Universe, HUGE chunks of the post-Endor years weren't even touched on. Ditto so many inconsistencies- no Empire, Imperial warlords, Deep Core Empire, Outer Rim Empire, etc. It took huge reference books written years or decades after the fact to try and sort out all those inconsistencies.

    If anything, attempts to do alot of "world building" early on before the story properly evolved did the story of the rise of the First Order a HUGE disservice, as there are so many inconsistencies (as @GrandAdmiralJello expertly detailed). I'm all for the Trilogy wrapping up before I truly understand the First Order, New Republic, etc.

    Yeah, plus a blitzkrieg-style attack fits in nicely with the Nazi allusions we see in the FO. I'd also throw out the Imperial Japanese perspective- they had superior ships and planes compared to the US at the start of the Pacific War, but they knew that they needed to knock out the US and other allies quickly. The First Order may be in a similar predicament- they aren't large enough to conquer the Galaxy world by world, so they are banking on the shock of the Hosnian Cataclysm and the initial blitzkrieg into NR space to shock worlds into surrendering.

    See my comments above to Ben. I agree- the First Order's military strategy hinged on the destruction of the Senate and Home Flee to give them a chance to take over the Galaxy. Even then, they have to rely on that oldest of weapons from despots - FEAR. Their hopes that worlds surrender as opposed to dig in and fight it out is key to their strategy. When Rey notes that the "major systems" may not hold out for more than a few weeks, that points to the First Order targeting specific key worlds, as opposed to a general sweep into NR space.

    Given the presumed size of their forces, I can see the First Order focusing on worlds like Corellia, Chandrila, Kuat, Mon Cala, or Sullust, while ignoring huge swaths of territory in hopes that conquering key worlds forces the Galaxy to surrender.

    --Adm. Nick
     
  5. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think the scary thing is Finn isn't exaggerating.

    The First Order really IS just that big and powerful.
     
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  6. vncredleader

    vncredleader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    Agreed. And the fact that at this point we just don't know makes them all the more horrifying. They might not actually be that big, but maybe they are, but maybe they are not, but then again....and so on and so on. That's what makes a less overt enemy so scary, you can never be sure how many of them there are, so there is no way to really asses their strength and influence. They make you have to always be on the defensive, or at least always be unsure. The FO reminds me a bit of Dominion, both when they where just on the other side of the wormwhole and we had no idea how strong they where. As well as when we knew they had changelings everywhere and may be controlling several governments, and we have no idea of knowing without sacrificing our freedoms.

    Oh man now I want a SW version of Homefront and Paradise Lost.
     
  7. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    Isn't it true that without the reference material and insular material Dark Empire doesn't really go into the fact this is a post Thrawn Trilogy universe ??? I've always heard somewhere that continuity wasn't observed or something. Sorry if that's a bit off topic.

    I mean like you say it's either Russian Federation or North Korea....Personally I prefer the ISIS analogy myself.
     
  8. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    I think the FO is powerful enough.
     
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  9. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    My inclination is they have a large strategic reserve which is far bigger than their existing military base could produce. Basically, a huge chunk of the Imperial fleet and its armies which is added to what they produced in the past. However, what they control in the Unknown Regions is probably as big as possibly the diminished New Republic (which doesn't control the rest of the galaxy) by itself.

    I'm also inclined to think Starkiller Base started as an Imperial Project and was finished by the FO.
     
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  10. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    I'm more curious though what the resistance will do once the war is over. Will they restore the Republic or will they try to create something even more radical and democratic. Something new that is a continuation of what came before...move forward.
     
  11. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Clearly we need peace with the First Order and stories about how it's a valid government reformed by an Old Imperial Dude.

    :)
     
  12. vncredleader

    vncredleader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    HAHAHAHAHA.
    As Diana said
    [​IMG]
     
  13. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I mean to a certain extent -- yes, when the OT was around we didn't know a thing about this background lore. But we knew a surprising amount actually, just judging from ANH. We knew there was an Old Republic and an Imperial Senate, we knew it was swept away. We knew about some old war a long time ago, not much else. We knew about a revolution against it. This is honestly a lot more than we know in the sequel films, I think. The films STILL haven't explained what the heck the difference between the Republic and Resistance is or why there's a Resistance.

    That's a failure, I think. Not about the supplementary spin-off material, they're doing just fine I think. The overall concept of not just filling out wiki entries or doing story through lorebooks -- that's also sensible, I think: stories should drive the narrative and worldbuilding, not the other way around. I'm totally behind that.

    But golly if the ST isn't just thin as heck about the galaxy. The PT and OT were not like that at all, to be perfectly honest. There's a superficial resemblance to the idea that we didn't know that much about the galaxy in the original films and we still loved them -- and it's true we didn't have a vast EU or anything, but we at least knew the score.

    With the ST, we're just leaning on Empire vs. Rebels again. The myth stuff is good, it's a narrative that's drawing from both trilogies. But the war and politics is just superficial as heck in comparison. Basically just there because it has to be.

    I think the ST is doing a good job with characters and with the Force/Jedi stuff. Not a great job at all with the war/politics.

    THANK YOU.
     
  14. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    For all the people arguing about the size of the First Order, just remember that we still have debates over the size of the Imperial navy, the size of the Grand Army of the Republic, how many ships were in the Rebel Fleet at Endor, Maximalist vs Minimalist debates, ect. It's something that I don't think we'll ever get a straight answer for, and the answer will probably vary from author to authors. However, I will say that something that differentiates the First Order Size Debate from the other ones I previously mentioned, is the implication from TLJ that they've at the very least taken over "major systems" in the span of what has to be a few weeks at most. No matter where you find yourself on the Maximalist vs Minimalist debate, most people would think taking over a galaxy in a few weeks is eyebrow raising. Not to mention I think a lot of people hope that the FO is small since it would make them more interesting.

    If Ep. 9 also has a pretty short Time Skip, and the First Order ends up being defeated in a few weeks or a few years, than I think that supports the idea that they were mainly propped up by Starkiller Base. But even if the FO is still presented as having an enormous military, I think there are a few tweaks that can be used to justify it. To repeat some of what I said in the Fleet Junkie thread, you've got 30 years of preparing for war vs 30 years of the Republic demilitarizing. As Darth Krayt once said, "Unknown is not the same as empty." If they control the whole Unknown Regions, that's about a quarter of the galaxy. They've got resources from the Unknown Regions, and resources funneled to them by criminal gangs. Also, think about the Clone Wars. That's TWO armies that were built in secret over a period of 10 years, which fought for the two largest nation states in the galaxy on hundreds or thousands of worlds.

    Now, onto the world-building question. I feel like I keep overusing the "on the one hand I agree, but on the other hand I disagree" stance, but that's how I feel. I remember a post saying that before making the sequel trilogy they should have come up with something like The Essential Atlas that plotted out everything in advance. I strongly disagreed, because masterpiece that the Essential Atlas is, it tied together decades of previous stories. Over planning would mean dictating everything to the EU writers, and would mean a lack of adaptability for when concepts evolve and scripts are re-written.

    At the same time, TFA was just terrible when it came to world building. Don't believe me? Before Alderaan was destroyed, we knew that it was Leia's home, and that it was peaceful. We knew that Tarkin wanted to destroy it, not only to get the Rebel base location out of Leia, but to demonstrate the Death Star's power and terrify star systems into submission. And afterwards Obi-wan made the "millions of voices crying out" speech. What do we know about Hosnian Prime? Hux yells that this is the last day of the Republic, and we see a city planet blow up. People who just watched the movie don't know why this planet is important or how it relates to the Republic. We don't even get the planet's frickin name until 5-10 minutes later when Poe casually mentions that the Hosnian system has been destroyed. In fact a lot of people missed this and thought Coruscant was destroyed. And I remember for months afterwards this thread was filled with debate on wether or not this meant the Republic was destroyed too. If people can't agree on wether or not a major faction still even exists when your movie ends, then you've failed at world-building. (Ditto for the "rump Empire" that exists in earlier tie ins but not later ones).

    TLJ did a lot better in my mind. I don't need an info dump on the history of Luke's academy or anything, but little lines like Rey's explanation of the FO's progress, Hux explaining that the Republic is no more, and "allies in the Outer Rim" are what I was looking for.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
  15. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Do not open the box marked "SSD".

    Though I suppose these days it's now the "MSD" box. ;)
     
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  16. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    True, but they should also establish what's going on and why. As Jello said:

    Say what you want about Lucas but he was good at putting in those small bits of dialog that made you get what was going on. Now it can be debated that the characters saying those things should not need to say them ("Why do Obi-Wan tell Luke about this and that, he should already know about it"; "Ric Olié"), but they said it anyway. They did it so we, the audience, would get what was going on!
     
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  17. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2015
    By the time they are vaporizing planets and cruising around in 60km Star Destroyers... yes, you are probably correct.
    Here's a brief history that offers some insight. In a nutshell, much of DE was actually written before HTTE, but for various reasons the comic was released afterward - and set afterward chronologically, despite not having originally been written that way. So while the intro and outro text pages (which were written afterward) reference Thrawn, the New Republic, Han and Leia's children, etc. the actual comic story itself makes no reference to any of that until around issue #6, leaving DE saddled with a pile of continuity errors that really aren't its fault.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  18. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Short version of TTT/DE: Zahn didn't want to play with Veitch so he took his toys home, complained to his Dad and LFL had to resolve the situation between their two licensees.
     
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  19. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think it was a mistake storytelling-wise not to have Coruscant destroyed instead of Hosnian Prime.

    The Prequels would have meant the First Order doing that would have a LOT more weight.
     
  20. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Clearly you just want the boards to see Jay go to the dark side swearing eternal classical vengeance upon those who destroyed his favourite planet.
     
  21. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    More weight sure, but A) It risks coming across as a "take that, people who liked the Prequels!" jab B) I really liked Coruscant.

    Also I don't think making Hosnian Prime be Coruscant is the only way to give meaning to it's destruction. Alderaan's destruction had meaning when no one in 1977 had seen it before. It had meaning because there was build up, because we connected to Leia and felt her connection to it, and because they talked about it just a little bit. All they had to do was have Hux say something like "right now the political and military leaders of the New Republic are gathering in the Hosnian System" and there, problem solved. The solution for how to give meaning to the destruction of Hosnian Prime is not "make it Coruscant", it's "give us even a tiny bit of information about this planet before you blow it up". You know, like it's name. Or at least tell us that Hosnian Prime is two days from retirement and has a wife and kid back home. Jeez, I still can't get over how even Red Shirts in Star Trek get more characterization before they're shot by Klingons or sucked into space.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  22. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    I wonder if the First Order is going to try to lay claim to Coruscant to signal their legitimacy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  23. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    That was part of why I think it would work because it signals the First Order doesn't care about that continuity. Coruscant is unnecessary to their desire to rule by force.

    But they didn't go with that.
     
  24. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2002
    But the first Order might actually care about that continuity, or care about seeming like they care.
     
  25. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    Ironically, the deleted scene from TFA with Leia talking to Korr Sella (it is like 17 second long) is all that was needed to further explain the connection between the Resistance and the New Republic:

    LEIA: "I need you to go see the Senate right away. Tell them I insist the Republic take action against the First Order."
    SELLA: "With respect, will the Republic listen?"
    LEIA: "Not all the senators think I'm insane. Or maybe they do. I don't care."

    Other than that, we know everything else we need. We have the opening crawl, which openly states that the Resistance is supported by the Republic. Hux says as much in the film as well, when speaking to Snoke. Then we get Hux's speech before the destruction of Hosnian Prime. Lastly, we have Threepio's remark that "without the Republic fleet we're doomed". All of this is enough to know the relationship between the Resistance and the New Republic. We know that the First Order rose from the "ashes of the Empire".

    In fact, I'll go a step farther. I'll argue that we got as much (or damned close to) as much "background" in TFA and we did in ANH. Think about it. We have an opening crawl that states there is a civil war. We know that the Rebellion is fighting the Empire. We know that there was an Old Republic and Senate, the last vestiges of which are being swept away. We know that there Jedi that protected the Old Republic for a thousand generations. We know that there was a conflict called the Clone Wars.

    If you count the words used in ANH and the words used in TFA to explain back history, you'll find that we're essentially the same. We (knowledgeable fans who read supplemental material) need to put ourselves in the shoes of folks who saw ANH. They were able to enjoy the story with minimal back history. I'll get even more direct- the entire Original Trilogy actually doesn't spend that much time on the Galactic Civil War. We see three battles. Most of TESB doesn't even show or focus on the Rebellion. Hell, the entire first act of ROTJ doesn't either. We don't know about the overall status of the war or hear about it, other than one liners in the opening crawls. "It is a dark time for the Rebellion."

    Listen- I'm the guy who created this thread, so it's obvious that I LOVE extra details, lore, back history, etc. I've been compiling it and discussing it here for over three years. HOWEVER, I'm equally capable to taking off my fanboy hat and accepting that the OT and ST aren't really that different in regards to those areas. The main difference being that in the case of the OT, we have decades of Legends and canon material already fleshed out explaining it.

    --Adm. Nick