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Lit From Endor to Jakku - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (TLJ Novelization Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Sep 6, 2015.

  1. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Yes, they only needed a few sentences to situate everyone on what the situation was and what the difference between the Republic and the Resistance was.

    Which makes it all the more perplexing that they didn't bother. They cut the Kor Sella scene to give Leia and Han's reunion more impact, and I get that -- but they could have made up for it. There's a scene where Hux complains about the Republic, they could do it there.

    (in all likelihood this was a last-second editing room change which really limits what they could conceivably do, I realize. But ugh, doesn't mean I have to like it.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  2. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    May 28, 2003
    It's a shame- it would have been a fun way to introduce Ackbar instead. Modify that scene slightly and it still works. Plus it would have left the Leia reveal for her reunion with Han. [face_dunno]

    --Adm. Nick
     
  3. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    In an alternate universe where I get to rewrite things in movies I like that still bother me about them, the Resistance is more or less on its own, and Poe Dameron is trying to get intelligence to Leia so that she can show it to the Senate and get Republic support. Poe gets to send a message that goes something like: "Senator Organa, I'm Poe Dameron of the Resistance against the First Order. My parents served with you in the war against the Empire. Yadda yadda yadda. You're our only hope." Hosnian is destroyed, but Leia still shows up with the cavalry.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  4. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    My original idea was the fact it was a Russia/Afghanistan/America sort of situation.

    Princess Leia and the Resistance fighting hard against the First Order in its territory and doing their best to overthrow the government with the Republic providing military support as well as funds.

    Which would make Hux's speech completely true while also being still precediing an act of pure evil.
     
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  5. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    I think Hux's speech is 100% true, it's just unclear if you're not going into the movie with an understanding of what's going on. I also still haven't given up on the notion that the Resistance is mostly Republic funds, technology, and training getting funneled to local uprisings, with a strong central fleet. Because otherwise I don't understand what the Republic is being asked to support, or what anyone is "resisting."
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  6. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    The basic flaw is that they wanted to do Empire vs. Rebels 2.0 without rebooting the whole saga -- and so they made a backwards explanation for why it could work. They had the seeds of a good idea, but the execution was lacking. The film worked without it clearly -- I mean, it was a rousing success -- but I will never really get over how derivative it felt. Everyone sort of knew it, but we decided we were okay with just going along for the ride. Which is fine, but it doesn't age well.
     
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  7. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    I still really like the movie, but it definitely rests on the characters rather than the conflict, and I do think the First Order works as long as it still manages to feel derivative of the Empire on purpose, in that the characters in the film want desperately to be the Empire.
     
  8. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    May 28, 2003
    Well, the Republic's support of the Resistance makes sense when you consider that they were essentially a "canary in a coal mine". The majority of the New Republic Senate was either dismissive of the First Order's growing threat or naively assumed it was just a bunch of Imperial cosplayers. However, the New Republic had enough senators that felt that the First Order was potentially a threat that an unofficial tie between the government and the Resistance was established.

    Remember- no one expected the Resistance to suddenly morph into a fleet capable of defeating the First Order. Leia designed it to be a covert, paramilitary organization that would find proof of the First Order's treaty violations and coax the Republic to action. Had this occurred, Leia and the Resistance would have easily folded back into the New Republic. Both the New Republic and Resistance assumed that the Home Fleet and the various PSF's and roving NRDF units would be enough to fight back against the First Order. Or, at the very least, hold them off while the Galaxy built up it's war fighting abilities.

    Long story short, the Republic was basically funding a group that could provide them proof of the First Order threat. They naively assumed that if the thread DID materialize that they would be able to beat it back or deter it. They never got a chance, given the destruction of Hosnian Prime.

    I recall one early rumor about the plot of the Sequel Trilogy basically painted a picture where the Rebellion/New Republic and Empire were still at war. It would have had a late 1944 WWII vibe, albeit with there being more of a general fatigue on both sides for how long the war had gone on for. Hindsight being 20/20, this would have been a great way to tell a story that was Rebels vs. Empire 2.0, but they went the direction they did.

    --Adm. Nick
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  9. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2016
    Here's something about the Geopolitical situation of the Galaxy before TFA but post ROTJ.

    More planetary conflicts ....Like.....Wars akin to ....IDK Korea or Vietnam .....if we consider the Galactic conflicts akin to the World Wars/major power conflicts.

    Like a crisis were a planet is ruled by a Dictator and he invades his next door neighbor planet or something. I mean considering the NR didn't rule every planet in the Star Wars universe i'm sure there were some planets that wanted to remain independent and just go there own way with no connection to the Rebels or Empire.

    Sorta like IDK the Star Wars equivalent of the First Gulf War.

    I'd like to see that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  10. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    And letting them remain so would have been the means of demonstrating that the NR was not the Empire, with a caring 'n' sharing rebrand.
     
  11. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 9, 2016
    There might not have been a way 30 years after Ep 6 but no one said anything about police actions :p
     
  12. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 19, 1999
    That's going to be the running joke for Resistance!
     
  13. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
    I will have to disagree. To me Hosnian Prime felt unexplained and I was not fully certain that it was not Coruscant for a bit of the movie and I still don't get the relationship between the Resistance and the New Republic or what the Resistance had done to warrant a STB attack on the Republic. There was also a lack of emotional impact after the destruction of Hosnian Prime to me. People more acted like they had found out about STB and its capability instead of having witnessed it and reacting on the destruction.

    Who are we? I have not read any of the ST EU material.
     
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  14. Clone_Cmdr_Wedge

    Clone_Cmdr_Wedge Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2006
    D'oh! :oops:

    *Sigh* Well, other than that goof, my point still stands. :p

    Considering that, according to the film, the First Order "rose from the ashes" of the Empire, it would be easy to surmise that the FO was full of former Imperials who would (obviously) harbor a grudge against the New Republic, as well as younger people who have been fed propaganda since they were kids about how the "loathsome" Rebellion destroyed their "Glorious Empire" and replaced it with the New Republic. The presence or absence of the Resistance would be inconsequential to them. All the Republic had to do to warrant its destruction was just its mere existence.
     
  15. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think the FIRST ORDER being a retread of THE EMPIRE is something that was necessary because of the fact Star Wars is fundamentally an anti-fascist story. The Separatists were weaker villains, I think everyone will agree upon because we never really got a sense of who they were or what they were representing. Well, we did but the Corporate Sector Writ Large gave way to "heroes on both sides" and so on.

    It was my big problem with the Yuuzhan Vong because they didn't really represent anything. They were Space Aztecs and all of the things they had as central beliefs like Anti-Technology (but having bio-organic tech), anti-droids, and pain worship weren't things that could really be applicable to real life conflicts.

    The First Order as a applicable force for Alt-Right, Neo-Nazi, Russian, and North Korean analogues are very useful. Kylo Ren as the archetypal "School Shooter" and "Entitled White Creep" are very topical.
     
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  16. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    But how does it naturally follow the geopolitical story of the previous 6 episodes of the Star Wars saga?

    Prequels: the fall of the Galactic Republic and transformation into the Galactic Empire
    Originals: the fall of the Galactic Empire
    Sequels: ??? (if you don't kill all of the bad guys from the last trilogy, they'll utterly destroy you in a surprise attack?)

    It made sense that the Sequels would be about how to restore the Republic... not the basic foundation stuff, that's kind of boring for cinema and would happen in-between trilogies anyways. But how to make sure the new government would be better, an improvement over what came before. With possible enemies such as forces within the New Republic who would want it to go in many different directions and risk tearing it apart.

    But instead we zoom-forward to a barely-mentioned New Republic... which in the movies seems to have no effect on the larger galaxy, besides Hux saying they aid the Resistance, and with everyone despairing about how there's no hope... and then the First Order blows up its capital/fleet in one strike, and it's not relevant at all in the rest of TFA or TLJ. (Also, with how small and powerless the Resistance is in TLJ, why was it so feared by the First Order in TFA??)

    What happened to the story of the galaxy? If you just go by the movies, it seems to have no relevance other than a few Imperials got away, rebuilt, and returned stronger than ever, and easily toppled the new Republic government effortlessly. What's the story? What's the lesson... when rebels defeat an empire, make sure none escape?

    This is one reason why I loved "Bloodline." It connected the story of the ST to the story of the galaxy. Two different sides... Populists and Centrists, each coalitions of multiple ideologies themselves... wanting the new government to go in many different directions, with the strong partisanship leading to stagnation and heavily foreshadowing the threat of a new secession. I was thinking "yes! it does flow... the ST does have a plan for the story of the galaxy!"

    I was waiting to see it references, even if very offhand, in TLJ... and nothing. The New Republic is still a non-entity, besides a vague comment by Rey about how the most important systems will only have a few weeks before they're overrun. Still no context, no worldbuilding, to what the central conflict of the ST is really thematically about, and how it represents the next step for the story of the galaxy. Important things like this need to be included in the movies. ANH took the time to do this. The ST can and should too... but with only one movie left, I'm not too optimistic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
  17. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I've mentioned that I have the same irrational hatred of The Last Jedi which some fans have of Ewoks and Jar Jar. I love the actors and even like the characters but something about the script and the way it treated Luke Skywalker really really rubbed me the wrong way. In the words of Mrs. White, it's "flames, on the side of my face. Breathing, breathing heated breaths..."

    [​IMG]

    However, I think the desire to see the New Republic was something I was completely prepared for not happening while a lot of fans mistook where the movies were going. Basically, I took the New Republic as Alderaan. It was something which was going to be sacrificed on the altar of making the First Order look good. It was also, to me, inherently less interesting than the Resistance because I'd already seen the New Republic in many books in Bantam. I was interested in seeing the Resistance and how Leia's plucky rebellion would work.

    ...

    Then they killed everyone but six guys.

    Yeah.

    I do think the purpose of the First Order is about the dangers of nostalgia, which is the one thing which I think TLJ had a theme to deal with but utterly bungled the handling of. In the case of the First Order, they're people who romanticize the Empire and have resurrected it from the ashes. Kylo Ren is a fanboy of Darth Vader and ignores all of the evil horrors perpetuated by his grandfather because he wants to be like him.

    You could also argue the First Order is a good Russian Federation metaphor as it attempts to revive (but "improve on") a nostalgic image of galactic power they once wielded while ostensibly being different.

    Mind you, I do think of this as a Course Correction for the Star Wars EU. Legends really milked the "not so bad Imperial" bantha and even managed to make cheese out of it by Legends with them getting their own Jedi as well as ruling over much of the galaxy with a Star Wars bloodline. The idea that leaving the Empire alone will only result in them coming after you again isn't necessarily wrong when, you know, Space Nazis.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  18. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 9, 2016
    It's why (Despite some flaws in the World building department) I have become totally ok with the conflict of the ST. In hindsight it really is a conflict we need right now in these times....I don't wanna get to deep because of reasons.....But honestly (Even though I know your feelings towards Last Jedi) that film plus what going on today makes me completely ok with the political situation....It's a lot more...Millenial and modern and Star Wars is always about tapping into the subconscious of the world around it. Hence the original success just after the Vietnam war.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  19. Voltron64

    Voltron64 Jedi Master star 1

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    Dec 23, 2009
    Exactly, OT was "It's Payback Time, Nixon!" while PT was "Still Mostly Nixon, but way more relevant now with Dubya."

    :D
     
  20. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 9, 2016
    This is why Ep 9 is gonna be very interesting for a few reasons.

    1. I really don't think we are gonna get any peace treaties between the FO and Republic (Or whatever we are calling ourselves now) it's gonna WW 2 style chase Hux to the bunker ...At least that's my call.

    2. Also depends on how they wanna handle 10-12 if/when it happens and how they wanna handle the post ST world, and that gets into a whole other conversation of proper franchise handling which this thread is not about.
     
  21. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

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    May 3, 2015
    At the risk of sounding like one of those people spouting "keep political agendas out of Star Wars!" and "rabble rabble Kathleen Kennedy" . . . I think some of those examples are reading a bit too much into things, and I don't think a villain faction has to be 1 to 1 analogue for a real life historical or political group for it to be a good villain faction. There's also a risk of the bad guys becoming caricatures. Star Trek's Ferengi were introduced as caricatures of capitalists. After their first appearance (in which Armin Shimmerman described them as "angry gerbils") it was realized they couldn't be taken seriously as villains.
     
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  22. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 9, 2016
    I mean i can't speak for the FO or what JJ/Johnson were thinking but George has talked about the Nixon parallels in interviews a few times......and while i don't have any interviews (Sorry for coming unprepared) SF Debris covers this in his documentary Shadow Journey https://sfdebris.com/videos/special/shadowsjourney.php
     
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  23. BobaMatt

    BobaMatt TFN EU Staff star 7 VIP

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    Aug 19, 2002
    I get all this, but given the conversation above my post, my point is more that it might have been neater, cleaner storytelling to just have the Resistance be unaffiliated with Leia or the Republic in any official capacity, and fighting the First Order and trying to convince the New Republic to help them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  24. KamNale

    KamNale Jedi Knight star 1

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    Feb 11, 2012
    That is exactly how I feel about these films. I really wanted more world building, but it totally is familiar to own own lives and our own political situations. These events and characters reflect off of our own world around us.
    Hux is totally a Richard Spencer type figure while Kylo is the more homegrown Alt-Right.
    Leia, Rey, Finn and co are definitely the Resistance (the Twitter one that is) and represent the amount of women and people of color rising in high places in the entertainment industry and politics.
    Snoke is the old rich white man who has been in power for many years and he's afraid of Rey, a woman, who is powerful.

    Honestly, whether they did that on purpose (which I can't see happening since they couldn't predict our world now back in 2013-2015) or not is simply brilliant. Can't wait to see if IX could somehow represent the "end" of our situation here in America.
     
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  25. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 9, 2016
    It's scarier considering the script for 8 was written at least in 2016 as well as a good chunk of production and how that movie plays so well in 2017
     
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