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Lit From Endor to Jakku - The State of the Galaxy Discussion Thread (TLJ Novelization Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by AdmiralNick22 , Sep 6, 2015.

  1. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 3, 2015
    Oh I'm a big SF Debris fan. :D I know that we have a bit more evidence for the Nixon parallels being intentional on GL's part. . . but even then it's not a 1 to 1 comparison. And when it comes to the prequels it could easily be argued as a send up of the Roman Empire or Nazi Germany with the whole "elected individual taking power" schtick. It's more the other stuff I find to be a stretch.

    Other than "The First Order is the neo Empire, and the Empire was Nazis", on what basis is the FO "the alt right"? They're certainly facist, but I don't seem to recall any scenes of Kylo Ren carrying a tiki torch. There's nothing about immigration or the FO being racist in the movies. If anything the FO is more inclusive than the Empire, since their boss is an alien, and we've seen women in their ranks.

    The whole "Kylo Ren is a school shooter" thing is just silly. He basically did the exact same thing as Anakin, at about the same age, (in fact Anakin killed MORE people, including children) but because Kylo wears all black and people make jokes that he's emo, it's biting political satire apparently.

    The other stuff like comparing the FO to North Korea or Russia, I don't think we have enough information about the FO to make a conclusion yet.

    1) No he isn't, he laughs at Rey's attempts to fight him, and seems more concerned with finding Luke Skywalker.
    2) How is this any different from all the other times in the OT that a woman faced off against the Empire?
    3) Snoke is an alien.
    4) How does Phasma fit into this stretched analogy?

    I think there's a definite difference between, say, pointing out how Star Wars may parallel historical cases of dictators seizing power and underdog guerillas winning, vs " Character X is a woman, so she represents all women everywhere, and Character Y is not only Neo Nazis, but symbolizes discrimination in Hollywood blah blah blah " I know some people won't agree, will think some of the comparisons I've made are similar, but I think there's a big difference between pointing out historical similarities, and saying characters are symbols for big complex ideas.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  2. Jid123Sheeve

    Jid123Sheeve Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jul 9, 2016
    Yay SF Debris fan-that documentary is so good! :D

    Well i do think JJ said once that Kylo is basically a neo-nazi but again i don't have the interview with me so I won't use authorial intent too much for my argument, especially since i'm a big believe in the author is dead-despite liking to know what the author was thinking when writing it.

    As for the school shooter analogy....I think of it because most school shooters aren't larger than life figures compared to the historical monsters of our time. Vader being the larger than life legendary figure that everyone knows and fears while Kylo is well....IDK how many people know Kylo exist let alone consider him larger than life both within and without the FO.

    As for the inclusiveness of the FO and Snoke thing.....Well thats just a can of worms i don't think i wanna open.

    But I mean i guess everyone takes something from art ...Again the author is dead.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
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  3. KamNale

    KamNale Jedi Knight star 1

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    Feb 11, 2012
    1. There was an interview somewhere that Serkis said that Snoke was afraid of Rey. So that's where I got the idea from.
    2. I think in this current age with the MeToo Movement and other such things that it seems more relatable as to say the 70s and women then.
    3. I'm aware, but I see him representing the old white men in power around the world who use their status to do whatever they want.
    4. I couldn't think of how she fits into this, but it dawned on me. She seems more like the...complicit women who do whatever the man does. Now I know that doesn't fit her personally, but that's the closest I could see any resemblance. That or just the bystander effect. I might get in trouble for the complicit woman comment so lemme be clear about it. I'm from the midwest and I live in a small farming community. Many of the older women here just do whatever their husbands tell them to do. I personally don't agree with it. And I know that Phasma is a in for herslf kind of person so I see her as the women in power who don't pay any heed to men in power who do or say sexist actions or remarks.

    I know some of these seem like a stretch, but it's just my observation of the current geo-political environment and how it could possibly correlate into the Sequel Trilogy.
     
  4. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

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    May 3, 2015
    @Jid123Sheeve @KamNale That's fair, everyone interprets art in different ways and takes different meanings from it.
     
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  5. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    I think of the First Order as a good metaphor for the Alt-Right because they are a bunch of Imperial fanboys and exceptional young who have co-opted the imagery, military attitude, and racism (alienism) of the Empire for themselves. They're substantially YOUNGER than an actual Empire and are driven by the romanticization of monsters. It's not a strict metaphor just like the Empire isn't just the Nazis IN SPACE but also Rome, Nixon, and the British Empire. However, it feels political.

    Kylo Ren sort of embodies, for me at least, the kind of guy who has lionized the bad guys of Star Wars and gleefully likes being the fascist despite growing up in a free galaxy with good parents. He's not driven by tragedy but a desire to be special at the expense of others. To, like the First Order, revive the evils of the past because he thinks he'll be on top because of it.

    There's also his creepy stalking behavior to Rey.

    Art interpretation is never precise but it feels relevant to me that way.

    Are the FO a bunch of Tiki-torch wielders? No, but TLJ implies that they used to be before they got armed and equipped by people who wanted to make a fortune off the conflict.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  6. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2012
    The problem with this idea, at least for me, is that we don't really see any of that they are a bunch of Imperial fanboys in the movies, we see Kylo Ren being a Vader fanboy but I did not really get that the whole FO was fanboys.
     
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  7. PCCViking

    PCCViking Force Ghost star 10

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    Jun 12, 2014
    As for Snoke being afraid of Rey, he was also afraid of Luke returning and reestablishing the Jedi. So, it's not so much that he's afraid of her because she's a woman, but because she represents the return of the order than all dark siders fear.
     
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  8. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    Well, there's Hux and Ren and Phasma.

    Phasma literally wears armor made out of Palpatine's luxury yacht.

    As for everyone else in the First Order, they're dressed as Imperials and have stormtroopers as well as Imperial-themed flags.

    Except they're NOT the Empire.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  9. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
    And how am I as a movie goer supposed to know that?
     
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  10. JediBatman

    JediBatman Jedi Master star 4

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    May 3, 2015
    I haven't read the Phasma novel or comic, but from bits and pieces I've heard on these forums, I was under the impression that Phasma dosn't give a toss about the ideals of the First Order, and is only out for herself. (Hence the whole "lowering Starkiller Base's shields" thing.

    Also another thing I just realized about the whole "alt right" metaphor: How does Finn fit into this analogy?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  11. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Do we need to know that to get the impression they're all people who were in diapers when the Empire was in charge? The Youth of the First Order is a thing of itself.
     
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  12. AdmiralNick22

    AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 28, 2003
    You're not alone in the hope that there are some "mini-conflicts" during the three decades of peace between Jakku and TFA. I've said it before and I'll say it again- we've got to see what is going on in Hutt Space. It's canon that post-Endor it was in disarray. It's canon that former slave worlds gained their freedom. These could easily intertwine into an interesting story about the New Republic's interactions with independent powers. I'd LOVE to see this type of story.

    Multiple sources state that the New Republic's decision to not obsessively have every world under it's banner actually helped the government. In some cases, it ensured and maintained peaceful trade relations with other powers and independent worlds. I suspect that this decision, plus the decision to move the capital from Coruscant, probably ADDED members to the ranks of the New Republic. There are a lot of flaws (or at the very least naive mistakes) that the New Republic has/made, but I do believe that making the government more democratic and egalitarian was a HUGE positive. The government was secure enough in it's own self image that it didn't waste time making compromises to get other worlds to join it. I suspect, knowing the idealist that Mon Mothma was, that the NR assumed worlds would want to join when they saw the benefits of the new government.

    We? Umm... the majority of fans who post on this message board forum dedicated to discussing the literature of the old and new canon. :p

    IIRC, Pablo Hidalgo mentioned on Twitter a few years back that the line "with the support of the Republic" was a late addition to the opening crawl of TFA. I think a lot of the disjointed feeling comes from the fact that the relationship between the New Republic and Resistance was something they didn't peg down right away. For better or worse (I can see valid arguments on both sides), TPTB wanted to let the ST grow and expand organically and with maximum freedom to each future director/writer.

    You're not. The whole point of supplemental material is that IF you want to know more and learn more, you can. Phasma's armor being made of Palpatine's yacht adds ZERO to a film. It's only in supplemental materials that those little connections are explored and make sense.

    *****

    Shifting gears a bit... I was re-reading parts of Life Debt recently and I came across the passage where the Starhawk battleships were first mentioned in context to Senate approval. It was a close Senate vote, hinged on scrapping old Imperial ships in favor of new "ships". Note the plural. It mentions other weapons as well. Given that this is still relatively early in the war, two things standout to me:
    1. The military appropriations bill the Senate enacted presumably was where other new warships, like the MC85 heavy cruiser and the Bunkerbuster corvette, were ordered and approved.
    2. The Senate tied new starship construction to the dismantling of existing/older ships, especially captured Imperial ones.
    The chapter notes that many senators in the New Republic remembered and still feared how quickly Palpatine militarized the Old Republic during the Clone Wars. The decision to scrap ships at a 1:1 ratio with new construction is interesting, as it shows that the New Republic was simultaneously open to building newer/better ships but immediately conscious of overall number of hulls in service.

    The crazy part is that this was done during wartime. Even crazier, the NR's (or Galaxy in general) ability to ramp up military construction in a matter of months is truly spectacular. It still amazes me that by the time of the Battle of Jakku that the NRDF was already fielding Starhawks, MC85's, Bunkerbusters, and the new StarFortress bombers. This is another major change from the old EU. In the old, the NR actively used captured Star Destroyers for decades. In the new canon, old Imperial warships were scrapped in favor of new ones.

    --Adm. Nick
     
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  13. mnjedi

    mnjedi Jedi Master star 3

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    Nov 4, 2012
    One of the things that I liked about the Phasma novel was that it showed that despite all of its tooting its own horn, about how its "better than the empire" and how outwardly fanatical it is, its actually not different from the Empire at all. Sure, it's location in the UR enables it to do a much better job of indoctrinating its cannon fodder, but everyone at the top is still out for only themselves.
     
  14. vncredleader

    vncredleader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 28, 2016
    The more things change, the more they stay the same
     
  15. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Immortal Mod-King of the EUC, RPF and SWC star 8 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    All I want - all I really want, is an Imperial remnant that abides by the peace treaty which has a brief conflict with the New Republic which it completely loses and abandons known space, to tie together the continuous loose ends.

    So, not much.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  16. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Excuse you, the Empire had the galaxy’s interests at heart.
     
  17. LelalMekha

    LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2012
    But if I were a true Imperial, I would regard this as sacrilege.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 12:51 AM
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  18. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    I actually hoped FO would be more Russian Federation-esque, with them blending both Imperial AND Old Republic aesthetics, and referring to themselves as the 'First Order' to make it clear that they are the first and legitimate galactic government. We still don't know what their name actually means.
     
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  19. The Positive Fan

    The Positive Fan Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 19, 2015
    Not entirely, but Empire's End offers a pretty big hint.
     
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  20. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Speaking of:

    Why does the Aftermath trilogy and Battlefront II make it feel like IMO that the Galactic Civil War ended 6 months or less after ROTJ? The internal timeline just feels off.
     
  21. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Because in new canon it pretty much did. Add an extra 6 months and the GCW is over.
     
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  22. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    Not really the answer I was looking for. I was expecting a further analysis from people who, you know, LIKE the Canon.
     
  23. Jedi Princess

    Jedi Princess Jedi Master star 3

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    Mar 25, 2014
    I mean, that's the answer whoever you get it from. The war ends with Jakku, one year after Endor. The why of it is a number of reasons; for me the most important is that with The Force Awakens, a shorter GCW gives our heroes an actual victory before the First Order shows up.
     
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  24. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    It’s the correct answer.
     
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  25. Noash_Retrac

    Noash_Retrac Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 14, 2006
    I was talking about the discrepancy in the timeline of the Aftermath trilogy and Battlefront II. We know that a year passed according to Lost Stars but Aftermath implies within its internal timeline that the war went on for anywhere between three and six months after Endor and then ended. Battlefront II was the exact same way. They needed to properly date the events because in my opinion the internal dates were off.