From my point of view the Jedi are Evil...

From my point of view the Jedi are evil?

?...You will find many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view...? (Obi-Wan, ROTJ)

Many have been blinded by the illusion created by the Jedi and their great reputation. This thread will explore the myth that Jedi in the PT (and ROTS in particular) are perfect beings incapable of making mistakes, incapable of doing wrong, incapable of having ?bad? intentions, people without egos, or arrogance or any evil intent. People who only love (without attachments ?) and don?t use hate?and all of these are perceptions based on only one side of the story, many of which are misconceptions. The Jedi have free will, they have trained to suppress some feelings and sometimes even they can succumb. There is great diversity amongst the Jedi (force users) ? all Jedi?s are not the same, some love more than other, some care more than others, others are stronger in the force, Maces approach on things are differant to Yodas. And this diversity, the ability to vary is proof that it is not correct to judge Jedi in an absolute manner, that is to say they are all one and the same ? Perfect infallible beings which only do good. They (the Jedi) vary in their levels, as do the Sith. Both are capable of deviating from their respected codes? If we had a scale of strongest in the darkside to strongest in the lightside, Sidious and Yoda would be on each extreme ? while people like Anakin (pre-sith), Dooku (pre-sith), Qui-Gon, Luke would be more towards the middle. The irony of Obi-wan?s statement ?Only a Sith deals in absolutes? should alert you to the fact that Absolutes are more often than not - proven wrong.

In fact, I don?t think even Anakin believes the Jedi are totally Evil, he believes them to have some evil tendencies.

Here lies a list of points (specific examples) exposing the reasons as to why the Jedi are evil (from Anakin?s point of view):

1: He was brought as a young child to their council, who subsequently forced and compelled him to believe as they believe and join their cult. ? Just imagine yourself in Anakins shoes. A young child, who loves his mother ? Yes he wants a better life, but he is only 9 years old, he is told story?s of how he is the ?chosen one?, the greatest being in galaxy? and is then shunned and doubted. Look at Anakins sacrifice at a human level, and you will see he is more than justified to doubt the Jedi and their intentions later in the saga. It is only when you look at things as a Jedi, would you refuse to see Anakins woes, and refuse to tender to his pains ? The Jedi are self-less, heartless beings ? Apathetic to sorrow. Is that really a ?Good? characteristic?

2: Now accepting him after a severe interrogation as a young child, they accept him into the order, while knowing there is great danger ahead in his training. So with one face they tell him - He is the chosen ?l and then with another scold him for having un-jedi like characteristics. Surely they know he was brought up not to suppress his inner feelings, natural human feelings. Anakins turns out to be a hybrid Jedi, a Jedi with a more human nature to him, a Jedi who loves, has attachments, can succumb to fear, he gets angry ? these are normal emotions that any non-trained force user would have. It is quite clear he is incapable of being a tradityional mould of Jedi. Not surprising as he was not trained in the traditional way. So we know he is a Special case ? Yet he is treated as any other ? See Yoda?s advice at the temple, and how general and out-of touch it was with regard to Anakins case specifically. Sidious is far more caring and able to relate to Ankins woes (or so he seems). Saying to someone who is different from every other padawan in history, yet you teach and train him like the run of the mill ? he is supposedly the chosen one ? yet the jedi treat him with contempt, doubt and at best like a regular padawan. The Jedi tell him not to have attachments, yet they know very well from his young age he developed these traits and would be impossible for him to train not t

 

You're right, Jedi, defenders of truth and justice in the galaxy,
helped to keep the peace for hundreds of years.. EVIL! lol
If that's the case who is Sids, the Easter Bunny?

You can see anything you want and call it your own pt of view.

I guess the decades of Jedi influence, what they stood for and
let's not forget how GL has described them all means squat.

 

Anakin didn't have to leave his mother and join the jedi. It was his own choice. And the Sith are the ones that are evil, not the jedi.

 

It may be by his choosing to leave his mother, but the Jedi Council are also to blame for what happens to Anakin. Sometimes, GL explicitly states it. Other times, it's subtle. Either way, the Council never fully trusted Anakin and in a way, were way too overprotective of him and his actions. All Anakin really wanted to do was to fulfill is potential. A potential he knew he had within himself. Anyone of us would've tried to break free from our shackles if we truly felt in our hearts that we could be more than what we're allowed to be. Anakin's story is a very human story. And ultimately, being the most human of all the Jedis is what caused his downfall.

 

Ani was watched closely and maybe at times not trusted b/c
from day one Yoda etc could see danger surrounding him.
Yoda said in EPI he could sense things in him and they didn't
want him to be trained. He was trained b/c Obi-Wan pushed it.
So they allowed it with reservations. Did you expect the Jedi
to forget about all that? Ani didn't change, if anything he
became more emotional which does not foster much confidence in
his ability to use self-control.

 

You know this makes me think about the message of the Jedi.. Do you think that possibly the council members were JEALOUS? I know Jedi are said not to possess this emotion, but the council never accepted Anakin for who he was, and kept him below a barrier. Could it be that they were envious that they were not the Chosen one? Especially Master Windu

 

No...not jealous. But very leery, concerned, and most likely terrified. Yet, having those feelings led to them being over, overprotective of Anakin throughout his training. It's not farfetched to say that the Council instructed Obi-Wan to take extra precations in Anakin's training. Take it slow as possible. That would frustration any child and any teenager if you felt in your heart of hearts that you were more than what they've made you....

The perfect example: Mace telling Anakin to wait in the Council chambers in Episode III. In that moment, Anakin was fulfilling his destiny. He was being the perfect Jedi. And in that moment, Mace destroyed Anakin's allegiance to the Jedi. After that moment, of course he was going to choose his beloved Padme over the Jedi and even over Palpatine.

 

Okay, I could barely get passed point #1 without already having some disagreements with this.

1: He was brought as a young child to their council, who subsequently forced and compelled him to believe as they believe and join their cult.

What I remember seeing, was QG giving Anakin the choice to leave behind his mother, told the young man that it was a hard life being a Jedi and Anakin choose to go anyway. The Council then felt the fear in Anakin and decided he had too many issues at such an age to consider taking him into their Order.

? Just imagine yourself in Anakins shoes. A young child, who loves his mother ? Yes he wants a better life, but he is only 9 years old, he is told story?s of how he is the ?chosen one?, the greatest being in galaxy? and is then shunned and doubted.

When did this stuff happen?

2: Now accepting him after a severe interrogation of a young child, they accept him into the order, while knowing there is great danger ahead in his training.

Again, when did this happen? The Council refused admitting Anakin into their Order and only agreed to it when Obi defiantly forced Yoda to allow Anakin to be his Padawan. Obi was going to train him regardless.

So with one face they tell him - He is the chosen ?l and then with another scold him for having un-jedi like characteristics.

Only Qui-Gon, then later Obi tell Anakin that he is the Chosen One.

I won?t go into the other points.

Look, the Jedi are guilty of getting out of touch with the Living Force in the PT. They relied too heavily on seeing the future for guidance and when Sidious started to ?cloud? the Jedi?s vision, they started to become lost ? no longer being able to see the future for guidance ? ?Clouded the boy?s future is?. When the Jedi weren?t able to have the ?future? tell them that Anakin is indeed the Chosen One, they were apprehensive, at best, about Anakin being the Chosen One.

There was one Jedi, in TPM that was very much a Living Force Jedi ? Qui-Gon. He knew, ?in the moment?, that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One. But even Qui-Gon trips up a little bit, IMO. I have no doubt that QG was right about the Force placing Anakin in his path, but I?m not completely sold on the Force telling QG to take Anakin away from his mother. It?s painfully obvious that Anakin was not ready for this to happen. But QG, I believe, took it upon himself (being proactive) to make sure he would be able to get Anakin (Manipulating a chance cube) and also make sure that he would be trained as a Jedi.

QG brought a ten year old former slave (ego issues), with pre-existing attachment issues, to a Council to have him trained as a Jedi. Anakin was forced down the Jedi?s throat, whether they wanted him or not, when a dying QG made Obi promise to train him.

A failing Jedi Order did the best they could with what they were dealt. It was simply a train wreck waiting to happen ? having a 10 year old boy, with issues, forced upon a failing Jedi Order, to be trained by a newly Knighted Jedi in Obi. Obi even admits that he failed Anakin to his face and later to his son, in ROTJ:

OBI: I thought I could instruct him as well as Yoda. I was wrong.

The Jedi are not evil, no matter what the POV is.

 

Anakin only said that because he let Palpatine manipulate him. He couldn't see that he was being used neither could he see that Palpatine appointing him to Council membership was meant to cause discord between Anakin and the Jedi Council. It's such a pity that Anakin was used in this way and wasn't able to differeniate between who was really good and who was really evil. Sad.

 

You guys are special. Who wants a cookie?

 

From my point of view this thread is evil......or just to much reading for one when their glasses are broken.

~PK~

 

This thread will explore the myth that Jedi in the PT (and ROTS in particular) are perfect beings incapable of making mistakes, incapable of doing wrong, incapable of having ?bad? intentions, people without egos, or arrogance or any evil intent.

Where in the **** did you ever hear that from?

 

Let me just say one thing. The line "Only a Sith Deals in Absolutes" is a very very very good line.

It was and still is very appropriate for Obi-Wan to use that line.

He was talking about the my way or the high way attitude that the Dark Side. Either you're my friend or you're my enemy, no inbetween. I have to control the universe, and only I can do so.

See, you're trying to add in a grayer area to Star Wars that really isn't there. Jedi have earned their reputation because they are genuinely good People. Yes, there are always a few people that fall from the code, but goodness that number is incredibly small when compared to the HUGE amount of people that stay loyal to the Jedi Ways.

Qui-Gon is still and has always been a very good person. He is not closer to the middle, he just doesn't like a few of the precepts, and that is OKAY. Luke is not closer to the middle, he may have been close to turning or not but he is still a very genuinely good person and always has been.

This topic is rather silly, and so am I for replying to it.

 

See to me, it is simply amazing how Palpatine is so manipulative. He twisted Anakin 180 degrees into seeing the jedi in a different way. And the weird thing is, what palpatine said to make Anakin believe this, is the truth! He simply stated the facts on what the jedi were planning. Anakin looked at what the jedi were doing as a bad thing because what they were planning to do was against the jedi code. He looked at the jedi as hipocrits, which is true. The perfect example is having Anakin spy on the chancelor, which is treason and against the jedi code. And Anakin realized the sith at least held true to their own code! The jedi thought they were doing what was best for the republic, but then so did the sith. Which way is the right way, is left on you own POINT OF VIEW.

It is wrong for the jedi to have someone spy on the supreme chancelor, because that IS treason and against the jedi code. The jedi even know that too, Obi-wan even said himself that that meeting did not go under recording because it was against the jedi ways. Anakin said that was treason, but obi-wan simply stated that "we are at war anakin." when palpatine found out that Anakin was to spy on him, he also agreed on the jedi perfoming acts of treason. So Anakin had a right to believe Palpatine when he said the jedi are trying to take over the republic, because they are performing acts of treason trying to USE Anakin as a spy. The Jedi don't realize that Anakin is feeling used because none of them know what it's like to be used. He feels like the jedi just want him for his abilities. Nothing more. But palpatine has feelings judt like Anakin, and he also wants Anakin's abilities to spy on the council, but Anakin feels like Palp is asking a favor as a friend. The jedi don't know what it's like to have friends. They don't have any human emotions. Palpatine does, and Anakin is glad to do it for him as his friend. So Anakin already favors Palpatine over the jedi. From that moment on, the jedi had no hope in getting Anakin back. None.

Then also knowing that Padme is going to die in child birth. Anakin goes to Yoda for help, but Yoda doesn't have any loved ones, becuase he doesn't feel love. So he goes to Palpatine about it where he learns the legend of Darth Plagious the wise. And then when palpy revealed that the legend is true, and Palpy learned this power and Anakin wants it to save Padme, Anakin with out a doubt would choose Palpatine (Padme) over the jedi. And wy not? The jedi are lying ***tards and traitors to the republic. Why do they deserve to live? So the friendship between Palp and Anakin basically dies, because all Anakin wants is palpatine's power to save padme. He chose his wife over his best friend, which is always a tough choice to make. Now Anakin is the one using people for their abilities.

If the jedi allowed human emotions, Anakin would still be a jedi because they would be able to help Anakin with his problems as well as Palpatine. But that isn't the case...The jedi really can't help Anakin because they don't have the natural emotions that normal people have. Anakin had a life outside of the jedi order and develped these natural feelings that the jedi train not to have. So he really can't talk to the jedi about his problems because they simply wouldn't understand. Palpatine on the other hand can. He grew up and developed emotions like every other being in the universe does. He has feelings such as love, anger, fear, etc. Such emotions were not against the sith code either. In fact, they were encouraged these emotions, believing it gives them more power(their anger).

So it wasn't Obi-wan that failed Anakin, nor was it Anakin himself, but the whole jedi order and their teachings.

 

He still could have decided to follow some of the code and not other parts. He could done what Qui-Gon did and have been fine.

BUT, once again, he saw things as absolutes. He wouldn't allow himself to be different.

A part of this is his own innate fear. He fears being different because if he's different how can he ascend the Jedi Ranks and be the Head of the Jedi Council? This also ties into his lust for power.

He did this to himself. It's not the Jedi Order's Fault. He could have been a renegade, but his greed, fear, and lust for power persuaded him to do what he did.

And, Spying on the Chancellor is NOT EVIL. You have to do what you have to do for the Benefit of The Gosh Darned Entire Galaxy. IT is not treason. The Jedi's first Precept is to Protect the Galaxy and Stop the Sith. Spying is what was needed and that's fine.

Once again, the world is not that gray, it really is quite Black and White.

 

Saying that someone is "good" or declaring that they are "evil" is to use an absolute.

If only a Sith deals in absolutes...




(Wait... isn't "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" an absolute too?)

 

That's all i'll say in this thread.

- O_F

 

I guess you must specify what u mean by "Evil". What is Evil for a person, can be "Good" for another. And the expression "only a Sith deals in absolutes" is not an absolute.... but a fact.

 

Well, lets see.

-The Jedi abduct children as infants in order to indoctrinate them into their religion.
-The Jedi profess "knowledge and defense, never attack", but spend their whole lives training to fight, and insist on leading all armies.
-The Jedi consider themselves above the law, hell, they consider themselves to be the law.
- The Jedi feel it is within their rights to cheat, steal, and bully to get their way, because their purpose is so superior to any other beings.
- The Jedi feel it's perfectly within their rights to use the Republic's resources to create a massive army, and to do so without the knowledge of the Senate or it's leader.
-The Jedi feel justified in completely destroying differing religions for the sole reason that they are different.
-The Jedi feel justified in maiming sentient beings at will, and have no issues with altering others minds for their own benfit.
-The Jedi feel justified in ending the life of a being because his values and ideals are in contradiction to those of the Jedi, and that cannot be permited.
-The Jedi feel justified in eliminating the legal leader of the Republic, and seizing control of the galaxy, because they think it's right, and who can argue with their superior morality?

Seem evil to me.

 

DS Are you being sarcastic?

Well, lets see.

-The Jedi abduct children as infants in order to indocternate them into their religion.

Wrong right off the bat. Who said they kidnap children? Hard to do in a Republic and still be a viable organization.

-The Jedi profess "knowledge and defense, never attack", but spend their whole lives training to fight, and insist on leading all armies.

Training to fight defensively isn't the same thing as attacking. And I'm sure you have info somewhere that says the Jedi INSISTED on leading all armies?

-The Jedi consider themselves above the law, hell, they consider themselves to be the law.


Strange statement considering the Senate tells them what to do.

- The Jedi feel it is within their rights to cheat,

Lovely man, Qui-Gon Jinn.

steal,

What did they steal?

and bully to get their way,

Who did they bully?

- The Jedi feel it's perfectly within their rights to use the Republic's resources to create a massive army, and to do so without the knowledge of the Senate or it's leader.

And this is EU. Not canon.

-The Jedi feel justified in completely destroying differing religions for the sole reason that they are different.

Now I see you are kidding since you pulled this out of thin air. What a joker.

-The Jedi feel justified in maiming sentient beings at will, and have no issues with altering others minds for their own benfit.

Hmmm, and this differs from cops defending themselves and undercover cops lying to maintain their cover how?

-The Jedi feel justified in ending the life of a being because his values and ideals are in contradiction to those of the Jedi, and that cannot be permited.

Something about murdering and massacering leads me to believe this statement is leaving somethings out.

-The Jedi feel justified in eliminating the legal leader of the Republic, and seizing control of the galaxy, because they think it's right, and who can argue with their superior morality?

When did they eliminate the legal leader of the Republic? Darth Vader did that to the emperor. No one else was able to do the same.

Seem evil to me.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZT. Nice try, but thanks for playing.

 

Then you are LOST!

 

Well, lets see.

-The Jedi abduct children as infants in order to indoctrinate them into their religion.
-The Jedi profess "knowledge and defense, never attack", but spend their whole lives training to fight, and insist on leading all armies.
-The Jedi consider themselves above the law, hell, they consider themselves to be the law.
- The Jedi feel it is within their rights to cheat, steal, and bully to get their way, because their purpose is so superior to any other beings.
- The Jedi feel it's perfectly within their rights to use the Republic's resources to create a massive army, and to do so without the knowledge of the Senate or it's leader.
-The Jedi feel justified in completely destroying differing religions for the sole reason that they are different.
-The Jedi feel justified in maiming sentient beings at will, and have no issues with altering others minds for their own benfit.
-The Jedi feel justified in ending the life of a being because his values and ideals are in contradiction to those of the Jedi, and that cannot be permited.
-The Jedi feel justified in eliminating the legal leader of the Republic, and seizing control of the galaxy, because they think it's right, and who can argue with their superior morality?

Seem evil to me.

you have missed the entire........................ah screw it.

why try people like this never see anyway but there own. the jedi are good guys, this is starwars it is pretty obvious lucas didn't intend for them to be evil. of course you will argue this, and dispute what lucas has showed us.

 

I think the choice of word abduct is rather negative. We have no proof of Jedi abducted, I would rather think that a parent's permission is requested or rather that of the Padawan inductee.

The Jedi do defend the ideals of the republic and the republic itself, i.e. the Clone Wars, with their knowledge and abilities to settle conflicts.

examples? If you are saying the arrest of Palpatine is illegal, then you overlook the fact that he played both sides of a war, manipulated senators to give him more and more emergency powers

Syfo Dyas? nobody knows if it was him or not that ordered the clones, not even the jedi council. All signs point to Palps.

The sole reason they want to destroy the Sith is that they are different? wt*? Maybe becasue the Sith want to rule the galaxy with an iron fist, and are hellbent on destroying the Jedi not because they are different.

I distinctly remember Qui Gon refusing to use a mind trick in TPM on the Gungan hierarchy for the very reason that many of the gungans wouuld be killed in the conflict.

This so called legal leader caused the conflicts that got him in office, and he stayed far longer than his term limits, which is indeed illegal. Plus he declared the empire and totally destroyed the republic.

This revolves around the Sith once again. Jedi don't just go around killing, they always start with negotiations,i.e.TPM and when that fails and hostilities are apparent, then and only then do they defend themselves.

Too much this thread is way too longwinded!

 

No, I'm serious. It's obvious by your responses that you aren't. Or at least that you've never seen the movies.

Qui-Gon said it. The Jedi swipe the kids with Force potential. How does one ask an infant for permission? They don't, the Jedi steal them.

Where do you ever see a Jedi fight "defensively"?

Really? When did the senate tell them to arrest palpatine?
When did the senate tell then to investigate the attempts on Padme's life? As I recall it was stated that that was a matter for the security forces, but they do it anyway.

Where do you think Qui-Jon got the power supply for Anakin to use?
Where do you think Anakin got that speeder from on Coruscant?

Ponda Baba, Stormtroopers, Watto, Jabba, etc.

We're not doing a canon debate, which is good for you since you'd lose.
The movies make it clear (assuming you've ever seen one) that the Jedi ordered the army.
They also make it clear that the Senate has not yet voted to create an army. Therefore they didn't know the Jedi did this.

The whole Sith thing just flew over your head didn't it?

Cops don't shoot people without warning. Jedi do.
Cops don't inflict life altering, permenant injury as a first step. Jedi do.
Altering the mind of a dealer because he annoys him isn't Obi-wan "maintaining his cover".
Qui-Jon trying to force Watto to take usless credits isn't "maintaining his cover".
Both cases show how little the Jedi value another beings privacy and rights.

Now I suppose you are joking, because this is completely made up. Where did these supposed events occur?

Thankfully, they didn't get to.
But they did try it, or did you miss that too?

You've refuted none of my points.
The Jedi are evil.
You have nothing to refute my points, or prove they aren't.
Thanks for trying though.

 

It doesn't matter if someone refutes your points the way you like it or not. If you say the Jedi are evil you got some real problems....Maybe you're a Sith eh?

Heh heh, The Jedi don't steal children. They look up people with real potential to be Good Force Users and ask permission to train them. Not every parent says yes.

Anywho, this topic has become actually fairly funny because some of you are trying to prove things that don't exist.