From my point of view the Jedi are Evil...

Do you Find Fault with the script?

 

. smack

 

I'm failing to understand what your saying.

 

Good and evil is merely points of view, no matter how much you slice it. The acts are one thing, the people who see it are a different matter. In Anakin's case, he has lost sight of the fine line between good and evil. Right and wrong. Black and white. Remember, those who do evil do not see themselves as evil. Anakin did not see himself as being evil, nor did he continue to believe that Palpatine was evil. The lines have blured and mixed. So for him to believe the Jedi are evil, it is the product of thirteen years of brainwashing. Those who are brainwashed are easily corrupted and manipulated. Decieved.

 

Good and evil is merely points of view, no matter how much you slice it.

From a humans perspective this is true. But IMO, there are certain absolutes regarding both ends of the morality spectrum, which extend from a purely objective source.

Remember, those who do evil do not see themselves as evil

Amen to that! Little off topic, but I've said this many times, about many different people-ex-girlfriends in particular. Those who engage in evil live in darkness, so they can't see forest for the trees. Their blinded to their own iniquity BY their own iniquity.

 

exactly. the subjectivity of the few cannot wash away the objectivity of the many

hmm...somebody much older and smarter than me must have said that

 

"From my point of view the Jedi are Evil"

Worst line of the movie by far. The line & all problems regarding Anakin turning to the darkside to quickly could have been so easily dispelled with a simple line.

Instead of saying, ?what have I done? he should have said something along the lines of ?I?m sorry I doubted you my lord, you were right the Jedi are traitors? .

 

NCT:

Bane? No EU please. It is dangerous to make assumptions about who is told what, especially based on the EU. Thinks from the ROTS novel are fine because Lucas line-approved it, but Bane? No.

Bane's in the TPM novel.
And Yoda says in the movie - always two there are - a master and an apprentice, so my point stands - they work together as far as anakin knows.


But the point is, if a Cop tells you that the Police Chief is a bad guy for selling drugs, you would believe it. But then you talk to the supposedly bad Police Chief, and he tells you that the COP is the real bad guy, and that he wants to turn people against him so that HE can be the new police chief, then who do you believe? Then you see the Cop marching in and killing their own Chief for being corrupt -- illegally. You're not going to believe what the Cop had been telling you. You're going to believe that the police chief was right, that you were lied to the whole time.

Well is the police chief in charge of the courts and the government?
And let me ask you, in this analogy would you then be prepared to go and kill all the cops in the police force, including the children?


"Well NCT was arguing that even the Good anakin would do the things he did and arrive at the same conclusions . "

Wrong. I said that everything he does is justifiable from his point of view, as opposed to simply being somethign he knows is wrong and doing it anyway for Padme. They were things that even when Anakin was good he would have gotten behind,

So he wouldn't do them but he'd get behind them ? er...okay. glad you cleared that up.

if he understood them as he is clearly depicted to in ROTS.

Understood what?

If mace was a traitor, wouldn't it be okay to cut his hand off to stop him from killing a man and bypassing the justice system altogether?

Well he does that and then Palpy bypasses the justice system by killing him etc. and he already controls the justice system anyway.

Would killing the Jedi be justifiable if they were all in on a plot to takeover the Republic for themselves

What are you on about? What evidence does anakin have that they were intending on doing this?
And in fact it's Sid who plans on doing that, and then does it.

If stopping traitorous Jedi could avoid war
wouldn't it be understandable?

Well I'd need some evidence, and somehow I don't think I'd believe a Sithlord who's clearly lied on his application form and has generally been causing chaos. plus if I'd been working with those jedi for 12 years, fighting and dying with them etc. I'd want some good evidence that they were all deserving death
Maybe it'd be understandable to a nutcase.

If you were told that you could go and take out the seperatist leaders and end the war, wouldn't that be justifiable from his point of view?

Oh the seperatists whose secret hideout Sid just happens to know LOL!
Would it be justifiable to take them out? er... weren't you arguing that Anakin is all for arresting people not killing them ? sounds like he's had a change of heart there.

Of course it would

of course it wouldn't !


That is entirely different than knowingly doing something completely wrong despite knowing better, just to save Padme. That simply is not what is depicted in the movie unless you choose to ignore 50% of the lines which relate directly to Anakin's belief that it was the Jedi who turned on him, not vice versa.

I never said he did that ^ or that I think that was his frame of mind.

Mithrandir:
Perhaps you missed the part when Palpatine describes Plagues's appretice killing him (which the novel says was Palpatine himself by the way).

didn't miss it, but it doesn't negate my point - yoda talks of the rule of 2 in tpm, so for all the years leading up to rots that's the way anakin would think of them working . Plaguis and Sid : they were also working together until he killed him.
Your point was that Anakin would imagine Sid and Dooku workin

 

Anakin knows what Sidious has done, but he is "blinded by love." He doesn't care. He will do anything, and everything to save his wife. And if this man is the only one that can do it, than he will do what he says.

 

I amazed that you actually believe the rule of two proves that Dooku was working for Sidious during the Clone Wars. So the rule of two means that Dooku is bound to stay with Sidious until he is stronger than Sidious and can kill him himself? I don't think so. It is certainly feasible that after ten years studying with Sidious he got sick of being the side kick, but knew he was not powerful enough to kill Sidious himself. So he left and started a war with the republic. I mean he left the Jedi order, why wouldn't he leave the Sith order. Obviously this isn't what happened, but the rule of two does not prohibit this in any way, and given what Anakin knows it is certainly plausible. Not only that, but notice that he never refers to himself as a Sith or even acknowledges that he is one in the movies except for when he is with Sidious and he when hired Jango (though even then all we know is that he used the Tyrannus name and may not have included the Darth). As far as everyone else is concerned he is still Count Dooku. Anakin doesn't even know that he has the Sith name Tyrannus. The fact is that there is no direct confirmation that he is a Sith given anywhere in the movies. The Jedi merely assume he is one, probably based on how he fought in AOTC (just as Qui-Gon assumed Maul was a Sith based on his fighting). So an ex-Jedi named Count Dooku who has knowledge of the Sith ways and of the dark side leads the seperatists, and because of the holy rule of two this must automatically mean that he is a Sith apprentice and his master is leading the seperatists behind him. Sorry but the rule of two proves nothing, and certainly doesn't magically prohibit Dooku from leaving Sidious and making his own bid for power over the galaxy with this war.

 

Well is the police chief in charge of the courts and the government?

That has no effect on the LEGALITY of what you are doing. Killing the police chief is killing the police chief. I can't just say "Well hmm, he is a chief, and I am just a piddling cop, so no one will believe me and the legal system will not be fair. Therefore, I am right to do what I need to do and kill him."

You're getting into moral questions during a discussion about whether or not Mace violated the code. If Osama Bin Laden came up to my house and asked for a glass of water, and I killed him because I know who he is and what he did, I still would be charged with murder. That's the (sometimes unfair) nature of laws.

And let me ask you, in this analogy would you then be prepared to go and kill all the cops in the police force, including the children?

If I believed that all of them were in on a massive plot, which I saw with my own eyes, if I witnessed them contradicting their own oath, and if I believed they would cause "civil war" and declare martial law and run everything themselves? Sure, I would want to. But that would not make it right. Vigilante justice may seem like a satisfying theoretical, but the fact is it is always counter-productive in the end.

So he wouldn't do them but he'd get behind them ? er...okay. glad you cleared that up.

That is the same thing, you focused on the wrong part of the sentence. I wasn't saying that getting behind them is different than doing them. Getting behind them means, he would do them, absolutely. But look at what the things are from his point of view: stop the seperatists, stop a plot against the republic, stop civil war.

None of those things are things he does knowing it is evil. From his point of view what he is doing makes sense. He has justified it to himself TRULY, not just saying "Sure it is wrong, I know that, but it is for Padme."

What are you on about? What evidence does anakin have that they were intending on doing this?

Holy Pudu, what?! The circle is complete. THAT IS THE POINT DUDE. That is what this is all about: Anakin believes the Jedi were in on this plot because Mace was doing exsctly what Palpatine said he would. He says that flat out. He says when there is no one left to lie for that THEY turned against HIM. If they DID turn against them, would killing them seem like such an evil thing, especially if you thought -- as Anakin does -- that the Jedi's next move will be on the senate whom his beloved wife belongs to?

Take a step back. You have all the threads, now weave them together.

Well I'd need some evidence, and somehow I don't think I'd believe a Sithlord who's clearly lied on his application form and has generally been causing chaos.

He aint believing Palptine. In fact, he doubts Palpatine -- until he sees what Mace does WITH HIS OWN EYES. That is when he stops trusting the Jedi. I mean, how clear did George need to make it? Anakin is offered Padme, he is told the Jedi are bad, and he still resists. He does not change his mind until one of the Jedi is doing something which is "not the Jedi way". And we are supposed to chalk it all up as meaning nothing?

plus if I'd been working with those jedi for 12 years, fighting and dying with them etc. I'd want some good evidence that they were all deserving death
Maybe it'd be understandable to a nutcase.

And if I had a friend, a mentor, someone who befriended me, who I had known just as long as I had known the Jedi, who I believe is a good man, who the Jedi very suspiciously and illegally asked me to spy on, and I was supposed to believe he was trying to do HARM, I would be hard pressed to believe it, even if he is a Sith Lord. The very state of being a Sith Lord is not a crime, it has to be what you do as a RESULT of being a Sith. Being a Sith is just like being the satanist who lives two doors down from me. He's a total weirdo, but I don't care. I'm not going to kill him for it. I would need to know exactly what he did wrong, rather than assuming guilt by assoc

 

There's not a single point on which I could not agree with you, NCT. And I admire your patience and care in pointing all of this out. I had some discussions on these matters here lately, trying to explain how things must appear from Anakin's viewpoint and that there those legal and political dilemmas, and I had sort of given up on it. You're dealing a lot better with it than I did.

 

I amazed that you actually believe the rule of two proves that Dooku was working for Sidious during the Clone Wars. So the rule of two means that Dooku is bound to stay with Sidious until he is stronger than Sidious and can kill him himself? I don't think so.
I mean he left the Jedi order, why wouldn't he leave the Sith order. Obviously this isn't what happened, but the rule of two does not prohibit this in any way, and given what Anakin knows it is certainly plausible

Whoah! now back up a bit - you were the one telling me that we had to think about what Anakin knows , not what we know . And indeed that is what I've been doing - as far as Anakin/the jedi know the sith always work as a master and an apprentice , the reason for this is confirmed in the novel - to stop the petty squabbling and in-fighting .
And that's what anakin has known for up to 12 years , so he knows that Dooku is a sith and that there must be another, probably his master, and he refers to him as the one they've been looking for all these years .
But now you're telling me that he thinks that Dooku left the sith order , based on what?

The fact is that there is no direct confirmation that he is a Sith given anywhere in the movies

well apart from Palpy calling him a sithlord you mean.
And him using the sith lightning and generally doing darkside stuff.

The Jedi merely assume he is one, probably based on how he fought in AOTC (just as Qui-Gon assumed Maul was a Sith based on his fighting)

so now Yoda can't tell a sith ?
You're seriously arguing that anakin will think that Dooku wasn't a sith ??

That has no effect on the LEGALITY of what you are doing. Killing the police chief is killing the police chief

But your analogy doesn't work, the point is that Sid is in a position of total power, he controls the courts, the senate, the galaxy, so your analogies don't fit . Mace is in an impossible dillema and Anakin is just standing there .

If Osama Bin Laden came up to my house and asked for a glass of water, and I killed him because I know who he is and what he did, I still would be charged with murder. That's the (sometimes unfair) nature of laws.

That analogy is so far from the situation we're discussing I don't know what to make of it.

If I believed that all of them were in on a massive plot, which I saw with my own eyes, if I witnessed them contradicting their own oath, and if I believed they would cause "civil war" and declare martial law and run everything themselves? Sure, I would want to

You'd want to go and kill children?.
and what's your evidence that they're all guilty of these crimes? And back to anakin - when did he witness all of the jedi plotting (against what you'll have to tell me)


"What are you on about? What evidence does anakin have that they were intending on doing this? "

Holy Pudu, what?! The circle is complete. THAT IS THE POINT DUDE.

FANTASTIC DUDE, go ahead and tell me!

That is what this is all about: Anakin believes the Jedi were in on this plot because Mace was doing exsctly what Palpatine said he would. He says that flat out. He says when there is no one left to lie for that THEY turned against HIM

Sorry but I couldn't understand that last sentence, say again.

But basically you're still not giving me any evidence (for anakin) that they were all in on a plot to take over the republic , which is what I asked you about.

If they DID turn against them, would killing them seem like such an evil thing

If "they" did turn against "them" How have they turned against them? Did you mean "they turned against him" ? actually I'm still waiting to hear why he thinks that.

especially if you thought -- as Anakin does -- that the Jedi's next move will be on the senate whom his beloved wife belongs to?

again - does anakin have any evidence for this?

Take a step back. You have all the threads, now weave them together.

On the contrary , it's anakin who has al

 

Whoah! now back up a bit - you were the one telling me that we had to think about what Anakin knows , not what we know . And indeed that is what I've been doing - as far as Anakin/the jedi know the sith always work as a master and an apprentice , the reason for this is confirmed in the novel - to stop the petty squabbling and in-fighting .
And that's what anakin has known for up to 12 years , so he knows that Dooku is a sith and that there must be another, probably his master, and he refers to him as the one they've been looking for all these years .
But now you're telling me that he thinks that Dooku left the sith order , based on what?

First of all, just because the Jedi and Anakin know that the sith always try to work as a master and an apprentice that doesn't mean there is some magical binding that makes this the case. Just because you have a master/apprentice pair does not mean that the apprentice can't leave, and neither the Jedi or Anakin are going to be naive enough to assume that an apprentice will remain a loyal apprentice for eternity, rule of two or not. And what would Anakin base the idea of Dooku leaving the sith order on? Well how about the fact that Palpatine ordered his execution. Doesn't seem like something a master would do to a faithful apprentice if you're seeing things from Anakin's perspective. Not to mention that he already left the Jedi, so he has a history of leaving groups that don't give him what he wants. Also I reiterate the fact that he doesn't use a sith name. The sith Anakin knows of then are Darth Plagueis, Darth Sidious, and Count Dooku. Lets play the Seasame Street game which of these things is not like the others. Now of course know that Dooku had the sith name Darth Tyrannus and was maintaining the Dooku name for political purposes, but from Anakin's perspective it is equally plausible that he goes by Dooku because he is not a sith anymore. And Anakin knows that the Sith have a history of betraying each other. I'm sure the Jedi taught him about how the in fighting you reference caused them to lose a millenium ago, and lets not forget that Sidious told the story of Plagueis being killed. Anakin knows that an apprentice killed Plagueis in his sleep, so why wouldn't another apprentice choose to use a war to betray the master. Same principle just different execution, which by the way would have worked quickly and eliminated the Jedi in the process if it weren't for the clones (which under this theory Dooku wouldn't necessarily have known about). Oh and I almost forgot the biggest thing to base the idea that Dooku is not a sith apprentice during the Clone Wars. He trusts Palpatine and truly believes that Palpatine wants what is best for the Republic. Thus without more conclusive evidence then "the rule of two" he will believe that Palpatine is innocent.

well apart from Palpy calling him a sithlord you mean.
And him using the sith lightning and generally doing darkside stuff.
I assume you are refering to Palpatine's comment on the Invincible Hand. Remember that at this point Anakin doesn't know that Palpatine is Sidious, and I'm sure that the Jedi have mentioned their theory that Dooku is a Sith lord to Palpatine. Thus at the time Anakin would chalk the comment up to Palpatine just reinforcing the theory of the Jedi and not confirmation of Dooku's Sith status. If he looked back on this comment after he learned Palpatine was a Sith (which I highly doubt he would since he had other more pressing concerns) he could easily have concluded that Palpatine was trying to warn him to take the threat seriously, but didn't want to say "oh he used to be a sith lord before he left". Since Anakin trusts Palpatine then its not hard to believe that he would think that Palpatine would want to give him advice before the fight but would do it in a way that wouldn't reveal his own identity yet. And as far the sith lightning, I've already granted that there is no way even Anakin could have concluded that Dooku didn't train in the sith ways with Palpatine at some point. But if he left

 

anakin did hav a valid point-of-view to me. the jedi (mace windu) were on track to destroy sidious. they had legit reasons for it, they could not be argued with, it wasnt up for debate among the jedi. sidious has his beliefs (power first, people second).

the jedi set up "the choice" almost as much as sidious did. my point: anakin followed his heart, everyone else followed their doctrines. anakin was confused, but so were the jedi. the jedi clinged to their reason, but im not sure if they were 100% right. anakin definitely needed to sort through it further (but so did the jedi, i think). the jedi were worried about being wiped out before the mace windu-sidious confrontation, i think that clouded their vision a bit, idk.

i guess anakin felt that the jedi order had unravelled so much that sidious didnt look so bad. his desire for force powers got him to that place. when you take a step back, youre like no way, the jedi order isnt perfect but it is better than what sidious offers. unless you need more power, then it suddenly looks closer between the two.

 

Anakin only acted to save Padme, not stop an assassination attempt. He just justifies his actions as doing that very thing.

 

Great thread btw. But Anakin's '...from my point-of-view...' line could just be chalked up to bad writing. -Or, intentional writing to display a poor and desperate choice of words on Anakin's part. However, to me, it sounded more like Anakin was just so consumed by what had taken place, what he had just done, and what side that he had just taken, that he felt compelled to be 'defensive' in his replies to Obi-wan. Anakin was reaching, reaching for whatever he could find, so as to try and justify his position. The punk knew that Obi-wan was on the correct side of the issues- and Anakin despised Obi-wan for such wisdom.

 

anakin probably thought, im not going to let padme die while i wait in this temple. i need to be more active in whats going down, i cant fault him for that myself. then he saw the jedi ideals being compromised and said, screw it, im not letting padme die for these ideals. he should hav been thinking, "im gonna do the best i can and not blame myself for what happens, im not going to cross the line for padme or my own greed." only if anakin knew better, which anakin did, can he blame himself.

 

Of course it wasn't just to stop an assassination attempt, but it WAS a case where that assassination attempt eroded the last faith he had in the Jedi. There is a direct causal relationship between Anakin's perception that the Jedi were trying to take over and his loss of faith in the Jedi, and I think the movie argues that without that erosion of trust Anakin couldn't bring himself to turn on the Jedi. That's why we see him get the offer to save Padme, and turn it down, and then pledge to find the truth behind all this.

 

Yeah! Good point.

 

Yes, the erosion didn't help matters. But it wasn't enough to get him to turn on Mace Windu. That's why Palpatine had to go one step further and not only go through the motions of getting Mace to kill him, but also the threat of Padme. In that moment, it's all about saving Padme. Afterwards, Palpatine returns to his original prediction to cement Anakin's loyalties and then mentions Padme, to tie it all together.

I just didn't think it'd be right to overlook the Padme factor.

 

Yes, the erosion didn't help matters. But it wasn't enough to get him to turn on Mace Windu.

I agree, I'm just saying that just as his loss of faith was not enough to do it, neither was Padme. Palpatine was the Perfect Storm of corruption and came at Anakin on both fronts.

 

First of all, just because the Jedi and Anakin know that the sith always try to work as a master and an apprentice that doesn't mean there is some magical binding that makes this the case. Just because you have a master/apprentice pair does not mean that the apprentice can't leave, and neither the Jedi or Anakin are going to be naive enough to assume that an apprentice will remain a loyal apprentice for eternity, rule of two or not.

so what was the Rule of Two all about then ? sounds like it wasn't working.

And what would Anakin base the idea of Dooku leaving the sith order on? Well how about the fact that Palpatine ordered his execution. Doesn't seem like something a master would do to a faithful apprentice if you're seeing things from Anakin's perspective

but as you point out later on - Plaguis was killed by his apprentice who was working with him at the time, so from anakin's pov it does make sense that they'll turn on each other.

Not to mention that he already left the Jedi, so he has a history of leaving groups that don't give him what he wants. Also I reiterate the fact that he doesn't use a sith name. The sith Anakin knows of then are Darth Plagueis, Darth Sidious, and Count Dooku. Lets play the Seasame Street game which of these things is not like the others. Now of course know that Dooku had the sith name Darth Tyrannus and was maintaining the Dooku name for political purposes, but from Anakin's perspective it is equally plausible that he goes by Dooku because he is not a sith anymore. And Anakin knows that the Sith have a history of betraying each other. I'm sure the Jedi taught him about how the in fighting you reference caused them to lose a millenium ago, and lets not forget that Sidious told the story of Plagueis being killed. Anakin knows that an apprentice killed Plagueis in his sleep, so why wouldn't another apprentice choose to use a war to betray the master. Same principle just different execution, which by the way would have worked quickly and eliminated the Jedi in the process if it weren't for the clones (which under this theory Dooku wouldn't necessarily have known about)...

wow , anni's doing a lot of thinking there ^

I assume you are refering to Palpatine's comment on the Invincible Hand. Remember that at this point Anakin doesn't know that Palpatine is Sidious, and I'm sure that the Jedi have mentioned their theory that Dooku is a Sith lord to Palpatine. Thus at the time Anakin would chalk the comment up to Palpatine just reinforcing the theory of the Jedi and not confirmation of Dooku's Sith status.

whew! lots more there^

If he looked back on this comment after he learned Palpatine was a Sith (which I highly doubt he would since he had other more pressing concerns)

oh, he suddenly doesn't have time for all this analysis now it doesn't fit your theory, but he was doing plenty of it up above.

Since Anakin trusts Palpatine then its not hard to believe that he would think that Palpatine would want to give him advice before the fight but would do it in a way that wouldn't reveal his own identity yet. And as far the sith lightning, I've already granted that there is no way even Anakin could have concluded that Dooku didn't train in the sith ways with Palpatine at some point. But if he left Palpatine right before the clone wars then he still would have known how to use force lightning. Its not like giving up the sith title would stop him from using the lightning. He still used the aspects of the force he learned from his Jedi training after he left the Jedi didn't he?

Hey you told me that we should be addressing what anakin knows. but all you're doing is coming up with the most tortured convoluted ideas and attributing them to anakin.

And then you suddenly say that he has more pressing matters than remembering the important bits.

 

to all:

I think many are forgetting the importance of Anakin helping Sidious kill Mace. That struggle, was, IMO, (as another poster said), Anakin's "two worlds" colliding. One being his loyalty to the Jedi Order, the other, his friendship with the Chancellor. He clearly panics when the two conflict, as they do in this scene.

I don't think that it's really neccessary that Anakin/Vader believes all of Sidious' lies, especially about the Jedi being evil, or even that they're plotting to 'take over'.

I think once 'he' kills Mace - being how he made it possible for Sidious to kill the Jedi Master - he's stuck. Personal survival instincts, basically, would ensure that this path that he had been on would go 'further downhill'......


gezvader28:

Let's bring your police chief back in - let's say you see him shoot an extremely dangerous prisoner. Would you then conclude that all the police are guilty and need murdering, including the kids?

Let's say, you help kill the police chief, because the 'extremely dangerous prisoner', has something that you want or need.

Would you be willing to suffer the consequences for helping the prisoner kill the police chief, if you're caught?

No?

So, how do you keep from getting caught, for one, and secondly, you know helping to murder the police chief was wrong, and you feel miserable because of it?

Would that automatically mean you're going to say, "Oh, o.k. I did bad. I deserve punishment. I'll turn myself in, even though I committed a crime to get what I want. But never mind what I thought I needed so badly. My sense of right and wrong will NOW, SUDDENLY, outweigh why I helped to do an evil thing in the first place!"


Out of curiousity, gez, what would you have Anakin do differently after Mace's death, that would still lead to ANH and the OT that we've seen (and not some alternative version)?

 

Let's say, you help kill the police chief, because the 'extremely dangerous prisoner', has something that you want or need

So, how do you keep from getting caught, for one, and secondly, you know helping to murder the police chief was wrong, and you feel miserable because of it?

Would that automatically mean you're going to say, "Oh, o.k. I did bad. I deserve punishment. I'll turn myself in, even though I committed a crime to get what I want. But never mind what I thought I needed so badly. My sense of right and wrong will NOW, SUDDENLY, outweigh why I helped to do an evil thing in the first place!"

well it would depend on what happens afterwards, if the prisoner then reveals to me that he doesn't have that thing I need I would become rather angry (that's being euphemistic!) .
And then if he asked me to go and murder children and comrades that I'd fought with for years I think I would laugh and say "Are you ******* nuts?"
Then I'd turn him in.
After that I'd talk to the wife, talk to a friend and probably admit what I'd done .

what would you do?


Out of curiousity, gez, what would you have Anakin do differently after Mace's death, that would still lead to ANH and the OT that we've seen (and not some alternative version)?

Hmmm. the danger with answering those questions is that someone will pipe in with "Aha , so you had those expectations.." etc.

there's an old joke about someone asking for directions and the answer they get is: "I wouldn't start from here."
in other words - I wouldn't have the above situation as is .