"From my point-of-view, the Jedi are evil."

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by NikkolasKing, Jul 10, 2009.

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  1. Dark--Helmet Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2003
    star 2
    I'd agree with this.





    Spot on post,Jedi law enforcment went to arrest him,drew there
  2. DarthIktomi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2009
    star 4
    They were arresting him for being a Sith. That seems to be the charge. Of course, religious preferences aren't really a reason for arresting someone.
  3. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    But war crimes are.
  4. lovelucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2004
    star 4
    Star Wars fans have been having this argument, and variants of it, for years now, and I doubt we will every STOP having it. Personally, I think part of the problem is that we have the movies, and then we have what GL and others have said ABOUT the movies, in interviews, written pieces, etc. And I don't think the two are easily reconciled.

    That's part of the brilliance and the formula that ensures Star Wars is Forever
  5. Dark--Helmet Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2003
    star 2

    So is treason and confirmed attacks on Jedi personel.Regardless the Jedi have Probable Cause.
  6. DarthIktomi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2009
    star 4
    The only war crimes we see the Republic committing are use of child soldiers *cough*Ashoka*cough* and use of eugenically bred soldiers. The Jedi are just as complicit in both. Can you prove Palpy ordered the use of trihexilon or whatever other chemical and biological weapons the Separatists used? Can you prove Palpy's behind the war? We know he is, but if Windu took that evidence before the Senate, only a few nutbars on the HoloNet would've believed him.
  7. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    Yeah, they may not be able to prove it in court. But they still had justification for trying to arrest him. From the Jedi point of view, there was plenty of evidence against Palps.

    In all, it really doesn't matter seeing how Palpatine wasn't going to let himself get arrested, if anything the right choice was to try to attempt a coup.
  8. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    True.
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    My friend, you are wrong. They may be illegal here, but here is not there. Under Republic law, the Jedi are allowed to use teenagers to fight. And the Chancellor himself approved the use of a Clone Army. Do not confuse the laws of the Republic with the laws found on Earth, particularly in the United States.

    They would've gathered the evidence after arresting Palpatine. They'd have access to his computers in his office and in his private quarters. There would be enough evidence to prove that Darth Sidious is Chancellor Palpatine. Everyone knows that the Sith were behind the war on the Separatists side. When word got out that the Chancellor was also a Sith would ruin his credibility and the people would turn on him.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Especially when they find out his username is "darkside83" and that he ordered Controlling Both Sides of a Galactic War for Dummies from Amazon Coruscant.
  11. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Lucas is a big proponent of using the lessons of history to convey his messages in the SW saga. As such, the rise of Palpatine is allegedly based upon the personages of Julius Caesar, Hitler and possibly even Richard (Tricky Dick) Nixon.

    Of all the above, Nixon alone led a truly democratic republic. Let us imagine that the Capitol Police decides to take matters into their own hands and "arrest" what they believe is a corrupt president from the available evidence at hand. Charging past the secret service to arrest Nixon for his Watergate crimes, for destroying tape recordings (possible criminal evidence), bombing N. Vietnam back into the stone age and any other crime they might have believed him guilty of, the Capitol Police draw their weapons as they barge into the Oval Office, with Nixon sitting apparently unarmed behind his desk.

    If Nixon drew a semi-automatic from his desk and mowed down the law enforcement team, how would a court find in the subsequent case?
    - Nixon is a democratically elected leader. He must, according to the U.S. Constitution, have due process in order to be removed from office (impeachment).
    - Until removed (democratically) from office, Nixon is still the president, and the Capitol Police are guilty of (at the least) kidnapping or (worst case) attempted assassination.
    - Nixon, in the face of lethal intimidation, is entitled to protect himself as leader of the free world (if he has the means). He kills all of the aggressors.
    - The Capitol Police team, heroes to some, are officially traitors to the fundamental precepts of American democracy.

    So why are the posse elevated to such an untouchable status, capable of doing no wrong, when they prove themselves the aggressors from the moment they enter the Chancellor's office? Their tactics were ill conceived and clumsily executed. Even worse, they violated the very laws of the Republic that they were sworn to uphold. At this point, Palpatine had the Jedi precisely where he wanted them. They were finished -- toast -- maggot carrion! And you know what? They so totally deserved it!
  12. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    [face_laugh]
  13. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    Congress would have been in charge of impeaching Nixon, whom he didn't control. Palps on the other hand controlled the courts, it is apples in oranges. In all, Mace made the right decision giving the circumstances, but the Jedi were screwed the minute Yoda and Obi-Wan left Coruscant.
  14. Dark--Helmet Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2003
    star 2
    Palp was going to get due process,mace tried to arrest him twice,he decided to fight.

    No there not,arresting someone is not kidnapping.The Jedi didn't go there with the intent to kill Palp so it's not an assassination.The Jedi reacted in self defense.When you attack low enforcement with deadly force first,law enforcement is then allowed to use it as well.

    Theirs nothing wrong or illegal when law enforcement draw there weapons on you,it's procedure,there well within there rights to do so.

    The Jedi are hero's because they are doing their duty to defend the Republic and it's free society against someone who's trying to destroy it.


    The real question is why people are trying so hard to make the Jedi out to be some evil force.Twisting facts and describing things that just aren't there,it's like many fans didn't watch the movies.Why do people go to such lengths to defend Palp and Anakin,watch the movies,they are the bad guys breaking the laws.





  15. Hernalt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 2
    "From my point of view the Jedi are evil." Bad line - should have been reworked. Nevertheless... Had Anakin truly known down to his marrow that the Jedi were evil, he would not have prefaced a _certain declaration and indication of said truth_ by _hedging or muting_ its impact upon his now-former mentor. In my observation, the terms 'pov' and 'opinion' are deployed by some speaker to assure some hearer that the right to an alternate pov or opinion shall not be abridged. The very presence of the terms 'pov' and 'opinion' in the linguistic field tend to create a multilateral environment, and the forcible removal of said terms or principles is necessary before an ordinary person can rouse the righteous indignation to do another bodily harm. Kenobi uses the term multilaterally in ROTJ. Palpatine does as well in the opera house, in that his contempt contains a hearty grain of respect. Had Anakin truly believed that the Jedi were evil, he would have said something as direct as "No, the Jedi are evil!" with combative stress on Jedi, as if he could not spit the word out soon enough. In my observation, you can assert a thing without knowing it for a truth. The fact that Anakin modulates the impact of his assertion betrays or demonstrates the fact that he only superficially, expeditiously or usefully believes it. In my observation, this behavior is evidence of self-deception. Anakin gave sufficient evidence that he knows what's what, if a little too late, when he sees that chances for raccontrement are gone with the Windu. His tears and facial reaction (thank, you Christiansen, for this much) indicate that he is very much aware that Padme is not all.
  16. DarthIktomi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2009
    star 4
    My friend, you are wrong. They may be illegal here, but here is not there. Under Republic law, the Jedi are allowed to use teenagers to fight. And the Chancellor himself approved the use of a Clone Army. Do not confuse the laws of the Republic with the laws found on Earth, particularly in the United States.

    True. But it just goes to show how kriffed up Jedi morality was. But the point was that those were the only things we could prove Palpy did that could constitute war crimes. Remember, anything he did that the Jedi could prove, they were complicit in.

    That's why my theory that "bringing balance to the Force" was wiping out both of them so his son could offer a third option. We know how Luke feels about that kind of thing, or at least how he felt. Not so sure after LOTF, where literally everyone's got a bit o' Sid in them.

    They would've gathered the evidence after arresting Palpatine. They'd have access to his computers in his office and in his private quarters. There would be enough evidence to prove that Darth Sidious is Chancellor Palpatine. Everyone knows that the Sith were behind the war on the Separatists side. When word got out that the Chancellor was also a Sith would ruin his credibility and the people would turn on him.

    But without Senate approval, they really have no right to arrest him. At least as I understand Republic law. After all, the Senate got rid of Valorum.

    Of course, with Senate approval, they've got the entire GAR working to arrest or kill him. Order 65 and all.
  17. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    Jedi on Trail: Opening deliberations

    Exhibit A: Jedi incapacitated the Chancellor's guards

    Exhibit B: Jedi drew (and ignited) their weapons in a threatening manner (it is worthwhile to note that a Jedi must only use his or her saber for self-defense and never in an act of aggression).

    Exhibit C: Palaptine was visibly unarmed when the Jedi barged in to "arrest him." Luckily, he carried a concealed weapon in order to protect himself from nefarious actors out to destroy

    Exhibit D: Palpatine engages in self defense.

    Exhibit E: Lone remaining Jedi decides to 'exact revenge for his departed colleagues' and kill the Chancellor, instead of arresting him.

    Members of the jury -- in a democracy, only the Senate has the right to remove the Chancellor from his elected office. The Jedi acted in the name of the Galactic Senate, yet showed the Chancellor no warrant signed by the Senate ordering his arrest. They made what I argue is an unfounded claim. In light of the threatening manner that the Jedi entered his office combined with their preposterous arrest claims, the Chancellor feared for his life and quickly acted in-self defense in order to save his own life. We have no evidence formal or hear say evidence that the Senate signed any such warrant. In lieu of the lack of such evidence, the Jedi acted in an unauthorized manner, alone, traitors to the republic, enemies of the democracy.
  18. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    And what did you honestly expect them to do? Palpatine wasn't going to come cleanly and you seem to forget that he controls the courts, giving the circumstances the Jedi did the right thing.
  19. VadersPappy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2009
    star 1
    Obi-Chron, don't forget that Palpy had admitted to Anakin that he was the Sith Lord the Jedi were looking for. That admission confirmed the Jedi were correct in their suspicions about him, which is why they had asked Anakin to spy on him.

    The reason they drew their weapons was because they were told he was the Sith Lord. And Palpy attacked them first, so they were well within their rights to defend themselves. (albeit not successfully for three of them!).
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    How is it wrong for the Jedi to their young Apprentices fight in the Clone Wars? The whole point of their training is to learn through experience. And yes, the Jedi were complicit in the war, as was everyone else. But they were all being manipulated by Palpatine.

  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Beat me to it.:_|
  22. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3

    From Anakin's point of view, the Jedi are evil...

    That would, of course, be the point of view of a lying, child-murdering, friend-betraying, wife-choking, traitorous murderer, who sells out his friends, teachers and compatriots, to say nothing of democracy for untold billions of beings and countless planets, in the hopes that he can learn how to keep his wife alive forever, mainly to spare himself the pain of losing her.

    And we are still debating this?

    The Jedi are NOT evil. Sorry, but that much isn't even open to debate. Want to argue that the Jedi are inflexible, or stodgy, or possibly arrogant? Fine - points for discussion. Evil? No way. The equivalent of the Sith? Uh Uh.

    One of Lucas' big big BIG errors, IMHO, was when he chose to inject a lot of politics and legal manuvering into the Prequels. The Classic Trilogy was, with all due respect, essentially a fairy tale with Sci-Fi trappings. Princess Leia was a PRINCESS. The Empire was EVIL. The Emperor was a wicked dictatorial usurper. Folks didn't stand around debating the legality of the rebellion, Han Solo shot first, and when Vader threw the Emperor down one of those handy SW-universe non-guard-railed open pits, we didn't have a long discussion over whether the Emperor's evil VP should rightly become the new Emperor. Unfortunately, GL felt compelled to make the Prequels about "more", and, IMHO, didn't do his story any favors. SW isn't a police procedural. Are we really debating whether Mace needed an arrest warrant when confronting an evil "Sith Lord"? Whether the Jedi's antipathy towards the Sith represents a religious hate crime? *** SHUDDER ***

    The Jedi are good - imperfect, fallible, but good - and the Sith are evil. I love SW, appreciate that there is more to the SW universe than ray guns and Wookies, but sometimes, you have to step back and not try to add in fifteen layers of complexity. This isn't that tough. Anakin may see the Jedi as evil in ROTS, but he has just sold his soul to the Dark Side ... he is wrong.

    Shadow
  23. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    The prequels have been explicitly described as primarily political in nature since 1976 and the prologue to the ANH novel.
  24. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    I don't have a problem with the added political slant of the PT... it was essentially a necessary part of the story for the time period that it covered. Other than that, though, I agree.

    I think that we, the audience, were not intended to think that Anakin may be right when he said, "from my point-of-view, the Jedi are evil." What I mean is that we were supposed to be taken aback by that, and that we furthermore were expected to agree with Obi-Wan's feelings when he responded to that statement by saying, "then you are lost!"

    Anakin's actions, as described above, should no longer allow him to be considered a reliable judge of right and wrong. His statement should just serve to show us how far down he has gone. Furthermore, Anakin's delivery and phrasing reveal two things. His "point-of-view" part shows that he knows it really isn't acceptable as an absolute truth, so he tempers it with the POV "disclaimer". Also, he really seems to be trying to convince himself that what he has done (and is doing) is somehow justifiable or right.
  25. Game3525 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2008
    star 4
    Bingo, you can't really put much stock into what Anakin is saying at this point, he is only trying to justify his own actions.
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