"From my point-of-view, the Jedi are evil."

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by NikkolasKing, Jul 10, 2009.

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  1. CaptainGiladPellaeon Jedi Knight

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    Jun 2, 2009
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    I agree with those who say that the movies themselves cannot be interpreted to support the claim that the Jedi are evil, unless the interpretation is an implausible stretch. However, I think the extreme position taken against Anakin by some people is an equally unsupported stretch of what we see in the movies. By the time he says the line about Jedi being evil, he is lost, but he is a fallen hero, not a villain from the beginning, and his actions remain basically good up until the middle of ROTS, with two glaring exceptions (Dooku's murder and the Tusken slaughter), both of which Anakin recognizes as grave mistakes, demonstrating his continued capacity to recognize right from wrong.

    Anakin's love of Padme and his desire to protect her are not evil or greedy, but noble and heroic. The way he handles those feelings is wrong, and thus ultimately turns out very badly, but the feelings are not wrong. Compassion and attachment may be different things in a well reasoned ethical framework, but in human feelings (even Jedi feelings) the line between compassion and attachment is blurry and not all feelings of attachment are wrong. Yoda does not say that emotional attachment to a person is greed. He says, "Attachment leads to jealousy," and even jealousy is not greed according to Yoda, but "the shadow of greed." Yoda explains that getting too emotionally attached to people can lead to a character trait that is like greed, admittedly a danger worth trying to avoid, though I don't think the hard line PT Jedi position of training infants and forbidding marriage is the only way to deal with the danger.

    The twisted, wrong thing about ROTS, the thing that makes the movie compelling, is that Palpatine does not recruit an evil follower. He does not even tap the dormant evil within a good person. Rather, he takes a person with no real greed, in the true sense of that word, and corrupts him anyway by turning the opposite of greed, love, into something perverse for our hero, so that he acts as if he were greedy while trying to be selfless.
  2. X-Factor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2009
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    Interesting topic! I do not believe the Jedi were "corrupt" or evil. They may have been a bit arrogant and set in their ways but they were definitely not either of those things. That's just ludicrous, to me. Evil is storming into the Jedi Temple and murdering a bunch of defenseless children, evil is choking your pregnant wife because of some fabricated jealousy in your head, evil is blowing up an entire planet, extinguishing thousands, if not millions of innocent lives in the process... The Jedi were a force for good and justice in the galaxy; they were imperfect, of course, as so is everybody, but they did the best they could under the circumstances. They did not just ?snatch? kids up, as others have stated, they always asked for the parent?s permission first and they were compassionate; they risked their lives every day protecting the innocent from the forces of evil. Anakin was lost and confused when he made that statement; his mind warped by Darth Sidious. He may have believed what he said but that doesn?t make it true.


    I agree. The average non-SW fan would not deduce from watching the film that the Jedi are corrupt or evil in some way. It just simply isn't there. The Jedi are clearly a force for good an the Sith are clearly a force for evil.
    I agree with this, also. We SW fans do tend to get carried away a bit, don't we? :p
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    A desire to protect your loved ones is good. But it is the reasons why that are wrong. Anakin wanted to save Padme not for her benefit, but for his. Every time he speaks on the subject, it's always "I". It's always about him, not her. "I need her." "I can't live without her." Even when she tells him it will not happen, he doesn't listen to her. He doesn't take her feelings into consideration. This is why Anakin falls. That is the attachment Lucas speaks of. A desire to keep someone out of selfish need, rather than a compassionate view on the subject. Anakin was saving Padme for all the wrong reasons. He saves Luke for all the right ones.
  4. Hernalt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 2
    Google "mirror stage" and "Lacan". Prior to the 'mirror stage', the infant cognitively perceives no differentiation between itself and its mother. Its cries for food and changing are answered as if by an invisible hand that has a face and a background. But when the infant perceives itself in the mirror, that non-differentiation is shattered, and selfhood or ego or the I results. Anakin's persistent mother attachment under this theory would indicate that he never successfully 'looked in the mirror' so as to observe to himself the separate and individual and unattached existence of his reflection, so as to form the basis for a sense of selfhood. Without that critical step or stage, Anakin's mother always remained a part of him. Therefore (under this theory) Anakin is not only not 'saving' Padme for Padme, he is also not trying to save his mother for his mother. On a pre-lingual level, Anakin is trying to save _himself_ in both cases, Padme being a transference. To push this a tiny bit further, the Jedi training process for younglings has to go through the mirror stage early on so that they can get on to the more advanced business of practicing selflessness.
  5. CaptainGiladPellaeon Jedi Knight

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    Jun 2, 2009
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    Keeping someone alive is a pretty good thing to do, even if it is done for all the wrong reasons, unless the price of keeping one individual alive is too high, which is why Anakin falls when he becomes willing to pay such a terribe price for Padme's life.

    And loving a person so much that one wants to keep the person alive out of a sense of emotional and intellectual need (Anakin receives no physical necessities from Padme) isn't the worst of motives for keeping someone alive, anyway.
  6. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

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    Jul 10, 2005
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    IIRC, Anakin NEVER says "I love you" to Padme. It's always, as you said, "I" statements about what he wants, he feels, and so on.
  7. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

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    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    But if he had said, "She needs me", "She can't live without me" always "She" - then we'd call him an egomaniac. And if he had gone on and on about how they needed each other and couldn't live without one another, we'd call him presumptive. Anakin couldn't express himself and win for losing. I didn't feel it was all about him; they loved each other, got married had kids - had to be apart and in secret and he was off at war in danger and she was at home in danger. Under the circumstances, I didn't see either of them as selfish - although both seemed overly attached, but under the circumstances, which were admittedly extraordinary, I can't hardly fault them. It wasn't like they got to wake up with Padme in curlers and Anakin reading the paper while the little brats irritated them - that was my boring family [face_laugh].
  8. Gary_Buchenara Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2009
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    I'm not sure that there's enough, in the films at least, to make it clear exactly what the jedi's position on attachment is. We gets snippets of conversation here and there, and some Yoda bumper sticker quotes, but it seems to me to be a far more complex issue than this. Attachment, in the colloquial sense of loving, caring for and hurting when you're parted from something is really unavoidable unless you live a completely solitary life. Yoda wanted to protect Obiwan and Anakin from Dooku, Obiwan loved Anakin like a brother. Attachments become destructive when you can't accept that they will all inevitably be broken at some point. For you and me, that means a miserable life, depression and possible suicide, but for someone like Anakin, it could mean turning to the Dark Side and trying to take over the Universe. This is what the Jedi are guarding against I believe.

  9. CaptainGiladPellaeon Jedi Knight

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    Jun 2, 2009
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    Well, in addition to that, we know that the PT Jedi specifically forbid two types of attachment for their members: spousal and familial.

    Even with these two strictures, though, the Jedi were willing to make some exceptions. Anakin was allowed to be trained despite his previous familial attachments, though he was asked to sever them. In the EU, Ki-Adi Mundi was allowed to marry.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It was all about Anakin and his inability to accept that there were things beyond even his control. He's trying to change fate and he fails for doing so. It all goes back to what Yoda says.

    LUKE: "Master Yoda, you can't die."

    YODA: "Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong! Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall. That is the way of things ... the way of the Force."

    Everyone dies, sooner or later. Anakin couldn't accept that when it came to his mother and to his wife. Especially because he has all these powers, but he cannot use them to stop it. That's why he turns to the dark side. He wants the power to cheat death.

    PALPATINE: "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

    A Jedi would accept what is to come and not go down the dark path that Anakin does.

    In the matter of Ki-Adi-Mundi, he was only granted that due to his species needing to keep future offspring going. There weren't as many males as there were females and so the Council understanding that, chose to give leeway. Otherwise, they wouldn't.
  11. OBIWANARNO Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2003
    star 1
    the difference is Padmé is one life (and he knows she is capable of taking care of herself and that clonetroopers will come to her aid) but if they would catch Dooku they could end a war. Obi Wan judges the situation and has his priorities straight - one life or millions?. Unlike Anakin who would have saved that one life - even though it would mean WAR for the galaxy.
  12. Tyber_Zahn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2008
    star 3
    The problem with that line is no-one in their right mind would say "from my point of view" they would just say what they believe to be true. "No the Jedi are evil!" is what he should have said, though perhaps that would confuse the kids who will take his word for it.
  13. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    From my point of view, the line works in the style of all the other antiquated, formal dialogue of the SW saga.
  14. EHT New Films Manager

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    Sep 13, 2007
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    As I said earlier in this thread, Anakin's actions should no longer allow him to be considered a reliable judge of right and wrong. His statement should just serve to show us how far down he has gone. Furthermore, Anakin's delivery and phrasing reveal two things. His "point-of-view" part shows that he knows it really isn't acceptable as an absolute truth, so he tempers it with the POV "disclaimer". Also, he really seems to be trying to convince himself that what he has done (and is doing) is somehow justifiable or right.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    In the Saga, the characters talk about POV's. That's part of the Jedi and Sith philosophy. So when Anakin says it, it is part of that belief system. It is Anakin's way of countering Obi-wan's own point of view, which then leads him to say that he is lost.
  16. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

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    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Well I don't disagree with you on this, but that is not what "I need my wife", "I can't live without my wife" means. Those are fine ways to feel about one's wife. You certainly don't want to hear someone say "I don't need my wife, I can live without her" - if they purportedly love her. And Padme was exactly the same. She backed away and told Anakin/Vader she could no longer walk the path with him - then gave birth to two beautiful children and lost her will to live due to: Anakin - that's right, her husband, who she "couldn't live without" and "needed" - and lost to the dark side - and yet contradictorily said she still felt there was good in him (Don't give up hope Obi-Wan, although that is exactly what I'm gonna do!!) Nonetheless, Anakin voiced what they both felt - quite obviously, and since he DID live without her, I would say Padme was the one with the bigger attachment issues.

    But the above aside, I think their love for one another, and attachment was fine. The problem is they took it to extremes. But this waws not indicated by their words to me - which is why I disagreed with your original post, but by their actions. Both went too far in terms of that attachment in one way or another. It is easy to villify Vader here, after all, he went on to be a certified Villain. But I can't let Padme slide on this one - Lucas should have had her die from injuries if he didn't want to make her as steeped in the 'attachment' as her husband was.

    I also agree that as a Jedi, Anakin should have accepted what was to come - but then again, as a Jedi, he shouldn't have fallen in love and gotten married, so...
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    1. No, but you would not trade everything for them. You would not betray your loved ones for them. You would rather lose them, that lose yourself. That is the right thing to do. Look at what Luke does with Han and Leia in the end. He let's them go. He accepts the will of the Force. If their destiny is to die, then so be it. They made their choices. They made the sacrifice knowingly and willingly. He would not compromise himself to save them. That is what I'm talking about.


    2.That's because Padme was just as bad as Anakin. That's why Lucas called her the bad mother and Shmi the good one. That's why Leia has to redeem Padme, by not being selfish like her mother. By loving Han, but also accepting that she can live without him. Jedi can love, just not the wrong way. They can love unconditionally and the two of them placed conditions on each other. They loved selfishly more than selflessly. She dies of a broken heart because she loves too much. She cannot place her sorrows aside like Leia does after Alderaan is destroyed. Her first words to Willard were that very thing.

    WILLARD: "When we heard about Alderaan, we were afraid that you were...lost along with your father."

    LEIA: "We don't have time for our sorrows, commander. The battle station has surely tracked us here."

    And we see it again in TESB, after Han is frozen and taken off. She places the safety of her friends above her own concerns.
  18. bluesaber70 Force Ghost

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    May 25, 2007
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  19. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
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    star 4
    1. Um...no. Only if you are a Jedi in the EU. Jedi in the PT didn't marry at all, so they didn't have to face this problem. Their only loved ones were the Jedi, they came as babes and so attachment, if any, was to Jedi - unless they went dark. But for your common family man, sure he'd give up his life protecting his family - he'd trade everything for them. He wouldn't be giving up any loved ones because his family would come first. Anakin was in a unique situation in that regard. But Anakin's problem wasn't his obsessed desire to save his wife - there is nothing wrong with that. His problem was deciding to go dark to do it. His goal was fine, his means were terrible. Lucas is right, Padme was a bad mum in losing her will to live when she had two great kids newly born - and Anakin was a bad father, choosing to go dark before they were born. But Anakin and Padme's love, attachment and need for one another wasn't the problem. It was the means and lengths that love drove them to undertake that was the problem. In other words, people who were just as attached as they were could live forever, happy as larks - as long as they didn't have the type of personalities that would do things like give up the ghost and die or go dark as a result of their feelings.

    2. I kind of addressed this above, but I would just add that Leia is not my standard to judge by. Her above response is that of a 'hard woman' and that is also unnecessary to me. There is no reason not to have sympathy and empathy or ignore your pain. Compassion is the key. So Leia didn't have it quite right either, imo. I think there is a balance - unfortunately, nobody in canon really hit it quite right in the PT or OT, except Luke - but that wasn't with a romantic relationship.
  20. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4

    I'm with DarthSinister on this. Leia was perfect. She wasn't "hard", she's in the middle of a war, being pursued by planet-killers. The last think ANYone needs at that point is for her to be "typically" female, needing time for blubbering and tears.

  21. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

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    Jan 9, 2008
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    Who said anything about blubbering and tears? lol. I simply meant "I appreciate your concern commander. However, I have to inform you that...", rather than casting aside his commisseration with her and relief at her not having died. I didn't even mean to say Leia was a hard woman over all; as I indicated, I was speaking about that particular response. She was interested in rescuing Han down the line and concerned about Luke facing Vader, etc., so her overall characterization wasn't hard, but her response in that case was to me. In relation to the topic at hand, I don't think Anakin should have 'brushed aside' his dream of Padme dying; he loved her and she was his wife. I simply believe his response in that situation was altogether wrong - but that doesn't mean there wasn't a right response that was sympathetic and expressive of his love for his wife. In other words, I don't buy the idea that the only two available responses are: 1) turn dark out of love or 2) ignore the love, brush it aside and remain a true blue Jedi.
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
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    Jedi were raised to not be attached to someone. They could love as Lucas said. They just could not love incorrectly. Anakin's desire to want to stop someone from dying is unnatural as Lucas states. This is why Yoda tells Luke that the nature of the Force, which is life and death, cannot be stopped by mere mortals. And why in the end, Anakin tells Luke that it's okay that he will die. And why Palpatine says what he says in the opera.

    YODA: "Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side."

    ANAKIN: "I won't let these visions come true, Master Yoda."

    YODA: "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."

    ANAKIN: "What must I do, Master Yoda?"

    YODA: "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose."


    ANAKIN: "He could actually save people from death?"

    PALPATINE: "The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."


    LUKE: "Master Yoda, you can't die."

    YODA: "Strong am I with the Force... but not that strong! Twilight is upon me and soon night must fall. That is the way of things ... the way of the Force."


    VADER: "Luke, help me take this mask off."

    LUKE: "But you'll die."

    VADER: "Nothing can stop that now."

    It's about trying to stop death, which is trying to stop nature. You cannot fight nature because it is unnatural. It's not just that he went to the dark side, but the mere fact that he's trying to stop nature.

    Leia is the standard by which a Jedi is judged. They do not give into emotions such as despair and sorrow. They set aside their emotions and move on. That's why you see Luke move forward when his aunt and uncle die and his mood changes when Han tells them that he needs his help in getting rid of the TIE's. And in the end, Luke let's go of his father rather than raging against his death.
  23. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
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    OK, thanks for clarifying because your other post seemed to indicate that line as indicative of Leia overall and you thought it was a failed attempt at GL's standard of behavior for Padme/Leia.

    I thought her line was perfect for the situation at hand. Leia had her priorities completely in the right order. This is not about her, at that instant, there were bigger and more important things at stake.


    Anakin did search for a 3rd option.

    Stay a Jedi, keep his wife and save her as well.

    The problem was that this 3rd option wasn't ever going to be possible because as a Jedi he wasn't even SUPPOSED to be married, much less in a possessive romantic relationship, so this whole world he created with Padme was doomed from the start as it was based on selfish love, deception and dishonor.

    All things that are Dark.

    Anakin wasn't a Jedi, he wasn't even very good at being a fake Jedi. He even admits he's not feeling as a Jedi should. So there was never any chance of him "being" a Jedi let alone staying a Jedi and keeping his life with his wife. He was doomed to fall because what he wanted wasn't possible.

  24. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

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    But Anakin wasn't raised a Jedi - he was trained to be a Jedi, but raised like a a normal kid through the age of 9. One learns to love and form attachments by then, especially if one and their mum (only relative) is a slave. Training that out of Anakin was impossible - but that should not have been at all surprising. I agree with you that trying to stop nature is farcical and unnatural - and it never seems to work and only ends in heart break. I disagree that Anakin shouldn't have had his dream and shrugged it off with "oh well, if my healthy wife dies tough!" He was attached to her, but that is normal - not for a Jedi - but for a man. Anakin wasn't a Jedi in that way. So he wasn't going to say "tough, let her die if she will" - he was going to try to do something about it. What he chose to do was wrong - but again, there were other things he could have attempted short of turning dark. Just for arguments sake, one would be to find a way to use the Force to discover if she had unknown health complications. We could all prolly come up with a 1000 things he could have tried. But my only point is that his love for Padme, his attachment to his wife was not wrong. His wanting her to live, was not wrong. His using unnatural means to ensure she lived would be wrong - that was what going to the dark side was all about in terms of Padme and that was wrong. But keep in mind, that was not his "goal" it was his "means".

    I disagree with Yoda here. He was wrong if one looks at this as a general statement, good in every instance, imo. He is right when it comes to those you go into battle with or your fellow Jedi who take on danger and might die - or an old person who must die. But he is wrong when it comes to Anakin's vision of his mum - because he had the opportunity to save her and he should have, rather than guarding Padme per the Jedi Orders. Eventually he reached that conclusion, but he was too late. The visions are not to be ignored and accepted - they may be false, the future changes, but there is nothing wrong with traveling to Tatooine and ensuring your mum is okay, or rescuing her from captors (although you don't want to kill all the Tuskins in the meanwhile, lol). And there is nothing wrong with Anakin pursuing ways to save Padme's life (ensure her health), as long as they are not dark. Anakin went dark, he chose the wrong means. But I totally disagree his response should have been to neglect the dream and train himself to let go of Padme and give her up for dead. He already broke his Jedi vow - he married, he had to make the best of it. But he didn't have to go dark to help Padme, and he should have helped her in a light manner if possible, imo.

  25. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    I was thinking of the deleted scene - or was it the book? - I guess, where he and Yoda are talking about his dream/vision and Anakin hears from Yoda exactly what he doesn't want to hear about trying to find a 3rd way - that there is no 3rd way and for him to let it go. But he won't. His weakness which leads him to the Dark Side when Palpatine offers him the 3rd choice that he wants to hear, he jumps at it, but then doesn't worry too much when it turns out to be a lie.

    Except "in terms of the Jedi"? Well, who else are we judging him by? He wants to be a Jedi, right? He claims to be a Jedi, right?

    Jedi aren't "the rest of humanity". It isn't a 9-5 job, it's a vocation.

    But he doesn't want to discipline himself like a Jedi. He doesn't want to sacrifice like a Jedi - who dedicate their lives to the service of the Republic.

    He wants to have his cake and eat it too even though the Jedi already know this doesn't work.

    But he and Padme are both self-centered enough to believe that they're right and 10,000 years of Jedi culture are not.

    They sound like what they are, selfish, self-centered teenagers.

    They're totally sure being a Jedi and a married man is working fine. Yet Anakin has problems right off the bat - before they even get married - about his priorities. See the murder of an entire tribe of Tuskens, see the argument after Padme falls out of the gunship in AOTC.

    Padme - co-dependent enabler - forgave him for slaughtering people (wonder if she'd've been so forgiving had that been a family group from Naboo) and never turned him in so he could be punished and get help.

    As for the Dooku chase, had Obi-Wan not been there, Anakin would have abandoned the chase for the leader of the Separatist movement, and possibly stop a war in its tracks, just to go running after his girlfriend and see to her boo-boos.

    Sound like someone you want on the f
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