"From my point-of-view, the Jedi are evil."

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by NikkolasKing, Jul 10, 2009.

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  1. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Ah - well I addressed that. I don't agree with Yoda. I don't feel Force visions are granted to be ignored. I also don't feel they are to be acted upon by going to the dark side, lol. But I do think they can be acted upon in a more reasonable fashion. The future is in motion, so they may not come to pass, but seeking a legitimate - light side of the Force - means to thwart them is what should happen, imo.


    I agree Anakin wanted to be a Jedi - but he blew that when he got married. I can't judge him according to Jedi standards I feel are wrong and the marriage standard was wrong. I can say he was a bad traditional Jedi - sure. But that is meaningless, because I feel the tradition is a bad one. The Jedi don't know if marriage + Jedi will work - they never tried it.

    Anakin didn't want to undertake some of the discipline and make some of the sacrifices, but I think the generalization that he did neither (at all) goes too far. He did both to some degree. He certainly dedicated the majority of his time, effort and energy to being a Jedi, he had no choice. And I do not recall one instance where he placed his marriage first during the span of time he was effectively carrying out his duties and married. What he did was prove that a Jedi could serve and be married. That it played a role in his fall is not relevant in terms of the marriage itself because many other things played a role as well. He simply chose the wrong means to try and deal with all of it - an evil, despicable, horrible and villainous means. But he didn't have to do that - married or not.

    But Anakin and Padme were right and 10,000 years of Jedi culture were wrong. Anakin could marry and be a Jedi. He hadn't asked Padme to marry when she fell off the gunship. If he hadn't ever planned to marry her, he would have still loved her and wanted to save her. The marriage itself had nothing to do with that - nor with his killing the Tuskins.

    Obi-Wan did stop Anakin from making many errors - but that was his role. Padme didn't save Anakin from prosecution - you think the Hutts would prosecute him? Neither the Hutts nor the Republic cared at all - they did nothing to stop the Tuskins from raiding and killing the villagers, nor did they help the villagers in retrieving their loved ones or care when they killed a Tuskin. Tatooine was pretty lawless in that regard.

  2. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    He did give him a legitimate means - give up attachment and be a real Jedi.
    Anakin didn't want to hear that. Hardly surprising since he was already deep into his deception and lies by then.


    How do you know they never tried it? Chances are really good they DID try it and it didn't work. They don't pull these rules out of their @sses just to make horny teenagers feel like suffering martyrs. There is a reason.


    I think it was pretty obvious that Anakin would put his attachments ahead of his Jedi life. Again, see what he would have done in AOTC had not Obi-Wan stopped him. And he wasn't even married then. For attachment's sake, he was willing to break Jedi honor code, lie and deceive just to marry Padme. Look what he ended up doing in RotS for the sake of Padme's "safety". In between, Padme was never in any real danger so that Anakin would have to choose, but in the meantime while on Coruscant, Anakin missed meetings/debriefings so he could be with Padme.

  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yes, it's been established that ROTS is nineteen years before ANH.
  4. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    I hear you; you feel it was legit, I don't, so I think we would have to agree to disagree on this point.

    If marriage was tried among Jedi 10,000 years before (or even 100), and it didn't work, that did not mean that it would never work throughout he evolution of Jedi within the framework of the changing galaxy. I agree there was a reason and the Jedi didn't do it for a poor rationale (like to make the young ones suffer). But be that as it may, in some respects, the Code wasn't written in stone. The Council acknowledged this when they finally agreed to allow Anakin to train as a Jedi, despite their uncertainty as to whether or not he was the Chosen one of their prophecy. The code should not have changed for Anakin, the code should have changed because it needed updating based on the fact that the galaxy was not the same place it had been 10,000 years previously. Point in fact is that Luke Skywalker became a Jedi more than a decade later than his dad had, and he made a phenomenal one. So much for that rule...

    Well Anakin and Obi-Wan both admitted to having too much attachment for one another (ROTS) and they were both Jedi. My point isn't that Jedi would never fail due to their attachments to one another - my point is that it was workable. Obi-Wan helped Anakin not to fail on the Gunship; but Obi-Wan would quite possibly have died if Anakin had taken that lesson to heart and left him on the Federation Tradeship in ROTS after rescuing the Chancellor as it was pointed out he should have done. But Anakin didn't do that - he formed attachments and went all out to save those he was attached to, that was a part of who he was. Obi-Wan also had that failing when it came to Anakin - but he drew a line; he wouldn't turn to the dark side to save others. Anakin would. That is the distinction I am trying to point out. It isn't the attachment that is the problem, that is workable; it was Anakin's willingness to use extreme measures to achieve his goals.

    The marriage/Jedi mesh was working because Anakin went on to become the 'hero with no fear' during the marriage - as a Jedi - and the marriage didn't end. I've pointed out above how "attachment" in and of itself does not always end in negative consequences - even for Jedi. It is the things a Jedi is willing to do - how far they will go - to ensure those they are attached to are 'safe' that makes the difference.

  5. mountain_hare Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2005
    star 1
    Yes, people tend to be more susceptible to brainwashing when you get to them at younger ages.

    As for only twenty leaving, I'm skeptical. Darth Revan had armies of Jedi.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Is it possible that it's 20 since the Reformations, as opposed to 20 in the entire history of the Order?
  7. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Or just 20 "masters" (not knights and padawans)?
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Nothing is impossible. Luke was able to train himself to let go of his attachments and love compassionately. Anakin would be no different if he just applied himself, instead of giving into despair. By doing something he damned her to death. By not doing anything, she would've lived. She died because he couldn't accept that he cannot save everyone. His desire to fight nature is wrong. Not just the means, but the very act of it.

    Anakin had a duty to protect Padme. That includes not jaunting off on a whim to Tatooine, when you are under orders to stay on Naboo. Anakin was poor in his duty by endangering Padme as he did. Especially if Jango found out where they were going. He had no idea what was going on and endangering her for his mother was selfish.

  9. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    It's obviously twenty Masters- the TPM novel clearly stated that fifty Jedi to begin with started up the Sith Order that Palpatine is part of.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's not brainwashing. No more than being raised religiously is brainwashing someone. Or learning at a young age to learn the martial arts. How you are raised is decided by who raises you. That's not brainwashing. It's called shaping one's mind according to how you were raised.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I just remembered that Rule of Two indicates otherwise. Well, there's always personal canon...:p
  12. mountain_hare Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2005
    star 1
    Being raised religiously without being given the opportunity to question and criticise *is* a form of indoctrination. It's no coincidence that the Jedi only allow children into their order, children are more malleable and easily brainwashed. The Jedi Order does not want strong, willful independent thinkers, it wants docile sheep. BAA BAA.


    By the way, here is the Jedi's idea of informed consent:

    To 9 year old Anakin
    "Hey Anakin, we want to take you away from a life of slavery so that you can be a Jedi. You'll fly through the clouds and kill baddies with one slice of your wicked ass sword, like some sort of futuristic superman."

    "Neat!"

    To a 16 year old Anakin
    "Umm, by the way, Jedi aren't allowed to form attachments, care for their mother, or nail Natalie Portman."

    "WTF?! How the hell did I get roped into joining this sh*tty cult?!"
  13. CraigTNelson Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2008
    star 1
    Obtuse hypotheticals aside, your brainwashing point was erased with Darth-Sinister's post. The Jedi do not make membership mandatory. Anakin could have left the order to be with Padme. He wanted it both ways.
  14. mountain_hare Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2005
    star 1
    My brainwashing point was not 'erased'. Sinister attempted an unsuccessful rebuttal. If Scientology went around snatching children to be initiates into its order, we'd all be screaming bloody murder and wondering what they slip in the cool aid. If they were snatched to be trained in the military, we'd be crying human rights abuses. But since the snatchers are Jedi (ie. the 'good' guys), everyone gets apologetic. It's as if people take the 'Jedi are good' assumption to be axiomatic, and then re-interpret all of their actions around that axiom.

    As for leaving, that's a little hard when you've been subjected to indoctrination for over a decade and know little else. But yeah, Anakin should have left. Get treated like crap by a bald idiot vs. nailing Natalie Portman. Easiest decision ever. For a person who hasn't been brainwashed.
  15. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    Eh? Luke's relatives were killed, he had no choice but to let go of his attachment - much as Anakin had no choice when his mum died. Luke was gun-ho on joining up with Ben once he discovered their deaths. Prior to that, he was talking about his work on the farm taking precedence... He also snatched up his lightsaber and went to dice Palpatine in half when the dark lord mentioned his friends were on the planet below being zapped. That doesn't sound like him letting go of them at all; he grasped the dark side in his anger then and a little while later too when Vader threatened to turn his sister. Luke was not the example of a man letting go of his attachments and letting compassion rule/putting duty first...sorry. He did come through in the end - but he was privy to all of the same temptations and pitfalls as his dad, and he fell into them at times, just like his dad (although not as long, lol). Anakin came through in the end too if we want to look at it that way though. But I'm talking about "attachments" and dealing with them correctly. Puttiong them firstcan be fine (as attachment for Luke saved Anakin in the end) or having them, but correctly prioritizing (Luke choosing to do the right thing in the end despite his attachment to his sister). It is always "what" they do in light of the attachment - and the choice of "means" when dealing with them - not the attachment itself.

    AS to your point about fighting nature: It is different for the Jedi. It defies nature to lift heavy rocks with the force against the laws of science and gravity - and so forth. So their training encompasses the idea that they can defy nature using the great power of the Force (and they do it flying, fighting and in other ways as well). Yoda needed to explain more - he can't just say that you can use the power of the Force to do all these nature defying acts like landing that Federation Tradeship, and it must stop when it comes to life and death. Why should it? Why shouldn't there be a way to defy death? Is that not what the Jedi do with their healing power? Defy death? Why not just let those persons on the brink of death die? They don't; they use their power to heal them if they can - and that is achieved in a nature defying way.

    Again, I end up at the same place: Healing is fine - going to the dark side is not fine. It isn't defying or fighting nature that is wrong; it isn't being attached in and of itself that is wrong - it is "what" you are willing to do in defying nature or being attached. The "means" Anakin used that were wrong, not what was driving them or his goals (relative to saving his mum and Padme).

    Well I think that comes down to our disagreement over whether visions should be ignored or not. Anakin said he was going - it was Padme who insisted on going also so that he could 'fulfill his Jedi duty' at the same time. It would have been better for Anakin to make her stay perhaps, but frankly, I think if the trip to Tatooine was all that was invovled, it was better for her to go along as Anakin could keep her safe there. What ensued had nothing to do with that original decision - they would have returned to Naboo after the funeral if Obi-Wan hadn't been captured. And Anakin was going to follow the council an
  16. celera Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 2
    One thing I'd like to point out is that you can't compare Luke's situation to Anakin's when they leave home. While Luke loved his aunt and uncle, he never wanted to be a farmer like Owen wanted. So the decision to become a Jedi wasn't hard to him. Anakin's still had a mom at home when he started training. Of course he's going to feel conflicted when the Order forbids any contact with her.

    There wasn't anything wrong with Anakin wanting to save Padme's life but turning to the dark side to learn the secrets of immortality (even that sounds too good to be true from a smooth talker like Palpatine) is going too far. I think that's what sinister means by defying nature. However, I don't think it was right for Yoda to tell him to ignore those dreams. Telling him not to mourn or miss loved ones when they die shows his lack of understanding of the situation. The OJO have cloistered themselves off so much that they don't get family or romantic bonds. In HTTE, Luke tells 3PO that a Jedi shouldn't get so caught up in galactic matters that he stops care about individuals. Yoda's advice for Anakin's dreams tells me that this is something the OJO didn't really get.
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi allow their Padawans to question, but only at the precise time. Doing it in front of Padme was not the time to be questioning their mandate. Doing it after being left alone is much better. The Jedi are strong and willful, but they must also exercise great care in how they behave. Obi-wan never tells Anakin that he cannot question the Council, nor his decisions. In fact, you can see it again in ROTS. And Qui-gon let's Obi-wan go in TPM. The questioning is the problem so much as the time and place. Anakin made a promise that he could not keep and Obi-wan pointed out that they would not exceed their mandate at the time.

    Anakin could care for Padme and Shmi. He could sleep with the former, but he could not start a family with her. He could not love her selfishly, which is what attachment is. But he could love her compassionately. Selflessly.

    But the Jedi do not snatch kids. The Jedi either go out testing children or the children come to the Temple to be tested. If they meet the requirements, then the parents can either chose to let the children enter the Temple or to return home. The Jedi never snatched Anakin, nor any other Padawan. The parents were always given a choice. It's just like military or private schools.

    Except he wasn't brainwashed. He was trained in the Jedi Arts, just like the Shaolin Monks train children from a young age. Anakin could sleep with Padme, as Lucas said that the Jedi can have sex. They just cannot get married and pop out a couple of kids.

    It wasn't that easy for Luke as he rejected the idea of leaving.

    BEN: "You must learn the ways of the Force if you're to come with me to Alderaan."

    LUKE: "Alderaan? I'm not going to Alderaan. I've got to go home. It's late, I'm in for it as it is."

    BEN: "I need your help, Luke. I'm getting too
  18. celera Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2002
    star 2
    "It is only once they've been killed, does Luke move on. He has no attachments and can leave with a clean conscience."

    I was precisely talking about after their deaths. I'm not sure how that wasn't clear. Once I mentioned Shmi being left behind, I thought it would be redundant for me to say that once Owen and Beru were dead, Luke had no family (that he knew of at the time) left at home, hence no conflict about training to be a Jedi.

    Yoda was right about that fear of loss is dangerous again, he and the OJO in general didn't know how to handle someone who already had the attachments that Anakin had. I don't agree with "Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not." How can you not mourn a loved one when they die? While Yoda correctly tells him to train himself to let go of people, Anakin gets angry at the advice. As explained in the ROTS novel, the OJO doesn't understand romantic relationships so Anakin doesn't see the advice as credible.
  19. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5

    There have been some wonderful give and take posts above - kudos to all!
    As to what I highlighted - why should the Order understand what is forbidden? Now, if Anakin had been more honest with Obi-Wan and/or the Order about he was not able to "distance himself from romance" due to his upbringing, perhaps the Order might have searched for a way to reconcile Anakin's emotional needs with the "the Code" (and not necessarily skewing it one way or the other). The Order did NOT understand and COULD NOT understand something Jedi are not supposed to know.

    IMHO Yoda would have sought to train/retrain Anakin had he realized Anakin's true fears. Heck, even something like, "To the doctor take her and ease your mind."

    Of course Anakin doesn't see the advice as credible, and the Order doesn't understand the question. They're on different wavelengths.

    To me, the question is did either "side" reach out to understand the other or were the questions/answers "assumed" as if they came from the same starting point? They clearly did not.



  20. mountain_hare Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2005
    star 1
    Your assertion that Padawan's are allowed to question their Master and the Jedi Council is conjecture. Critical criticism of the Jedi Code or the Council is all but absent throughout the films, and the repressive nature of the Jedi Order is further demonstrated by the fact that they only allow children into the order as initiates. Why? Because they are far more susceptible to indoctrination! Little children are essentially blank slates, willing to accept without question almost anything that they are told when in a cloistered environment kept separate from the real world. Adults such as Luke Skywalker are open to a wealth of experiences and alternative perspectives that highlight the flaws in Jedi ideology.

    Clearly not, since caring for something denotes some form of attachment. The absence of attachment equates to indifference. This might explain why the Jedi Order is always so slow to act to disaster, whether it be the Mandalorian threat or Palpatine. They just don't care enough.

    Jedi crock speak. One cannot form any meaningful relationship with another human being without there being any attachment to that individual.

    So you'd let your child be drafted and indoctrinated by the military or Scientology? Scary.

    From:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

    "Brainwashing (also known as thought reform or re-education) consists of any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person ? beliefs sometimes unwelcome or in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge.[1] Motives for brainwashing may include the aim of affecting that individual's value system and subsequent thought-patterns and behaviors."

    The Jedi Order takes children and then instills in them certain attitudes and beliefs, beliefs sometimes unwelcome or in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge. Their behaviours fits the definition of brainwashing to a tee.

    You're comparing martial arts training to spoon feeding harmful religious dogma to children? After all, the Jedi Academy doesn't just teach sabre fighting, it also demands that its members forgo all 'attachments', and not mourn or grieve whe
  21. xx_Anakin_xx Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2008
    star 4
    The Force defies nature in and of itself is what I mean to say. If everyone in the entire galaxy could do it, it would be a different matter, but this is reserved to Force sensitives that can manipulate the Force. My point was that Jedi, who can all do this, and many more things with the Force, will have a different take on "defying nature" than the common man. So Yoda says one draws the line at using the Force to stop death - why?

    How was Anakin possibly to know that Padme's death a natural cause? All he saw was her dying, not why. Why couldn't it be due to some outside force? As it turns out, it was in fact due to an outside source. Accepting death is good, but if you get a vision ahead of time, there is a reason for that - and the reason isn't to ignore the vision and thank the Force for letting you know of the devastation to come. I don't buy that. Anakin getting to Tatooine in time to save is mother would have been the good outcome of the vision's warning. His arriving late, getting angry and killing the Tuskins was the bad outcome. But the answer is not to ignore the vision altogether - that is yet another bad outcome in the making.

    Yeah, I agree that there are good and bad ways to use the Force. I just disagree on what is good and what is bad. I think it was Luke who told Cade he could use his phenomenal gift for healing in a way that didn't make him have to touch the dark side (and based on his eye color not changing and lack of ill effects afterward, I believe he did this with Syn and Blue). But the way he normally goes about it, isn't good. Same with Anakin - he could try and find a way with the light side of the Force to save Padme - but going to the dark side was bad.

    I remain unconvinced, sorry. I simply saw a woman in love going after her man. There was no organized effort involving the alliance.
  22. mountain_hare Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2005
    star 1
    Precisely. Who are the Jedi to claim that they know the will of the Force? It's remarkably arrogant, the equivalent of a religious individual claiming to know the mind of God while condemning all other perspectives and intepretations. There is nothing inherently evil about using the Force for self-empowerment, and to protect the ones you love. Selfishness is not inherently evil. Indeed, acting in ones own interest often benefits others, as described by Adam Smith: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages."

    If I had to choose between the Jedi Code and the Sith Code, I would find the Sith Code more plausible, honest and relevant to every day life. Peace is a lie, life is a struggle, from the molecular level, to the cellular level, to the individual organism, to ecosystems, cities and star systems. Passion is necessary, it grants humans the drive to achieve. The only reason I would never fall in line with the Sith is because almost every one of them seems to be sadistic to the point of irrationality, and like the Jedi they abhor love, albeit for reasons opposite to that of the Jedi (love leads to mercy and forgiveness). Not exactly a happy life. The Sith and Jedi are representative of two unworkable extremes, whereas regular humans fit in between. They can emphasise with others, not utter stupid stuff like 'You shouldn't mourn and miss loved ones who have passed away.'

    The Jedi aren't evil, but they aren't shining paragons of virtue either. As an organisation they tend to be arrogant, insular, out of touch with the common man, indifferent to the suffering of others, and rather hypocritical. Their regimented indoctrination, impractical ideology and use of force to maintain oppressive, decadent and corrupt political systems doesn't exactly weigh in their favour either.
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