From "New Order" to "Homeworld Security": *NOW* do you people believe me?!

Well, Labyrinth of Evil has been out for a few weeks now...

I've not bought it yet (I'm trying to work out a way to without breaking my pledge to myself not to pay money for prequel novels ), but I like what I've read, though I have to admit, I hadn't noticed this particular aspect of it until Darth_Guy pointed it out to me by PM...

It's not simply that this novel is laden with loaded riffs on real-world political phraseology...

Nor, for the purposes of this thread, is it about real-life politics and the opinions we might have, either...

It's about using real-world references to read the subtext of what's going on in the GFFA, which can then stand alone as a moral statement...

It's that I recall general scepticism when I suggested that a similar technique was being used in The Unifying Force...

"The New Order"?

"A final solution"?

Time to up the old thread, perhaps?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Could you be more specific? I wasn't around for whatever you're talking about...

 

You'll have to excuse the Imp Ewok, he's present, but sometimes not always accounted for.

I envision it as the monologues of a crazy old hermit...

Trust me, there is layers of depth there that I couldn't even begin to comprehend.

 

wow, that theory is so brillaint my head would explode if I even began to know what you are talking about.

 

The references in LoE were rather blatant, I thought. But I don't really recall others beyond that book that were that obvious to me, off the top of my head (Shatterpoint's "Heart of Darkness" connection aside). I found it distracting, since it seemed to be coming from the author's own political views and had no real reason to be in there, particularly the "Triad of Evil" line.

 

I know what this topic is about, but somehow I have no idea what Ewok was saying.

The references are obviously blatant, no matter what Del Rey says. But, being a Democrat, it doesn't bug me much.

 

You all are too caught up in the specifics. He's saying that Luceno using such phrases to knowingly make a point is evident in LOE. He is also saying that this helps prove that his use of phrases like New Order and Final Solution are symbolism in TUF.

 

There have been indications of this in Republic, with the security issues.

 

He's saying that Luceno using such phrases to knowingly make a point is evident in LOE. He is also saying that this helps prove that his use of phrases like New Order and Final Solution are symbolism in TUF.

Yeah, you're right.

What scares me is that I'm actually starting to believe the stuff Ewok's been saying for over a year.

 

So basically, Bush is playing the slow-witted fool to throw us all off, overextend the US's resources and remove all the checks and balances between him and all the reins of power, then declare himself supreme ruler for life. All of course, in the best interests of our nation's safety.
And Luceno's just the guy to notice it and try to inform us JC Lit geeks via this 'science-fiction' book. Now it's up to us to create our own Alliance to Restore the Republic.

Just for that McEwok, you get to be Garm Bel Iblis.

 

Pretty obvious. Luceno and the other Bush hating authors need to learn about a little thing call subtlety.

 

That's not the point of this thread. There are real-world references in Labyrinth of Evil; disregard the implications of said references for a moment. The Unifying Force, a book also written by Luceno, contains references to a "final solution" and a "New Order"; again, disregard any supposed connections the author may have been trying to make between the two books' real-world references. Now, does "New Order"-- and "final solution" in particular-- conjur-up memories of European/world history lessons? Ever since its release in November 2003, Thrawn McEwok has been insisting that these are blatant Third Reich parallels(note that LoE was not released at the time). Since an obvious precedent has been set by LoE, could McEwok have been correct all along?

 

Like I said. Pretty obvious. From a brief overview of Palpatin'e rise to power you can see the parallels. Note that I didn't say Luceno. I said Luceno and the others. Wasn't it Ostrander who wrote that one Republic comic that had Palpatine expanding security powers?

 

1. wookiee, it could be a lot less subtle.
2. Guy's got it--the points not the meaning of these messages, just that they are there.
3. Where's Nick? I imagine he'll get angry knowing that the GFFA is about to become a rogue nation under the banner of Cal Omas.

 

I am always around Pellaeon-Firke.

As for McEwok's statements, they are nothing more than some random musing that he came up with. Needless to say, I still believe that he will be very disappointed when the post-NJO comes out and the Galactic Alliance is not some nefarious organization.

But, knowing him, he will find something else that doesn't really exist and then harp about it.

--Adm. Nick

 

This shouldn't be really a surprise. Authors have been doing this for centuries, especially in the days where censorship was really tight and authors had to be really careful lest they loose their head.

 

Sorry, McEwok. I no more believe it than Star Wars and Lucas aren't anti-female.

Besides, homeworld security has been around for centuries. The current state of time is no different.

New Order is just an expression. Because nazism used it does that means no one else can forever more? The Babylonians could have used that expression too, for all anyone knows, before Persian conquest kicked their violet butts. I see no reason why anyone can't say new order.

 

What timing and context?

I'm sure the Austrian-Hungarian Empire was thinking border security in 1914 too. Perhaps the little Germanic states conceived of a new order when they amalgamated into one country and called themselves Germany, a century and a half back.

Parthenatically, Star Wars books spoke of the (Imperial) New Order decades ago, I say, decades ago. I'm certain I saw that wordage in the Foster novelisation, or even very early Bantamian books.

There was also a "new order" of thinking a short while ago. Historians called it the Renaissance, when a new order of artistic development spread, in stark contrast to the wives who were still property to husbands.

The world is primitive in my book, and until such time autodoors open at my approach properly I'll call it primitive. Gronk the Caveman had his moment; now it's time to meet Drrg and his DINKs.

 

So basically, Bush is playing the slow-witted fool to throw us all off, overextend the US's resources and remove all the checks and balances between him and all the reins of power, then declare himself supreme ruler for life. All of course, in the best interests of our nation's safety.
And Luceno's just the guy to notice it and try to inform us JC Lit geeks via this 'science-fiction' book. Now it's up to us to create our own Alliance to Restore the Republic.

Yes. With me as Supreme Commander.

 

I didn't get such a notion in The Unifying Force. I doubt that the good guys there would get a negative connotation. Sometimes a cake's just a cake... And the Wokling seems to have too much time at his hands to indulge in his dislike of the NJO Get over it, buddy! Here's another Y-Wing...
If Shimmra had started talking about a final solution, that would have been different. Obvious, for example.

About the New Order issue, if you look closely at the times around WW2, you'll find many instances of "zero hour", before and after the war. People like to see events as the most important there ever was. Same goes for the end of the Cold War, or 9-11, to mention more recent events. There are so many new times in history that you can easily lose count of them BTW, Ray Wilson has a song about this, called "These Are The Changes".


I was amused by the LOE references to real life, but I highly suspect that it depends on political views... I'd also say that while it's obvious to make the connection, you do not need to make it because it makes sense in itself. Security measures aren't that unusual for states in war, and the same goes for bad rhetorics. So, ten years from now, someone can understand this without knowing about real life in 2005.

I don't want to start political discussion here (who would? ), but I thought that those last years, the SW universe was quite good at mirroring the "dark tendencies" in real life that Radiohead pointed out in their work. You know, "Hail to the Thief" and all that. The culmination of that would have been Jacen in SBS, when he confides that he sees the galaxy turning to the dark side.

A real life reference I didn't enjoy, however, was in Destiny's Way, when two senators who used their influence to get away safely from Coruscant were mobbed by republic soldiers who had had to fight and lost friends. Why? The senators got away on a ship called Alemania, which I took as an stab at Germany for not joining in on assaulting Iraq. I didn't only dislike it because I disagree with the real life issues (and come from Germany, btw), but also because it's a bad comparison. In SW, you had an absolute defense of civilians, in real life, you had mostly a public intention of defending by attacking. Plus, it promoted bullying people around (because there were no counter measures by the observing officers) which is on the same line as self justice. I disliked the senators, too, but don't like aggressive bullys better.

In the end, I didn't dislike the novel because of this, but because it didn't use Jacen as he came out of Traitor. It gave him holidays, and then he's the Solo boy again (even if with a beard). And it had too much time to cover. Plus Alpha Red, but that's another thing...

 

Okay... a few things...

Yes, TwiLeksRokMySox got it; this isn't about the real-world parallels, it's about how loaded phrases can be used to key the reader into subtext and possibilities...

Luceno clearly does this a lot - there are unarguable quotes from Shakespeare and the Bible strewn around TUF (at least two of them in odd proximity to Omini, on themes that are rather relevant to this discussion); sometimes, though, it is probably possible to overread - as with the apparent reference to an Arthur/Morgana style relationship in an Anakin-Solo-related context in Hero's Trial...

So, the references to "New Order" and "Final Solution" in TUF don't mean that the Alliance are Space Nazis - just that they have the potential to be...

But - yoursh truly as the Shenator for Corellia? Well, it'sh not entirely uneckshpected, though, ish it?

And I hadn't noticed the Alemania reference in DW beforehand, but I'd see that scene as a lot more ambivalent than it seems - the military crewers are more dangerous than the politicians...

The NR's politicians did the job they were elected to do; the NR military didn't do the one they were trained for...

Keep talking?

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Didn't the Empire already begin concentrating aliens to certain sectors of Coruscant?