Clone Wars Future Star Wars animated projects to be produced by Disney TV division not Lucasfilm.

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by rezpen, Mar 19, 2013.

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  1. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Oh... this.

    Methinks this is like one of those situations in which some member of <insert name of some or another aggrieved group here> goes about looking for things to get offended over. There's a lot of that these days - "What do you mean 'you people'?" and all that.

    Anyhow, yeah, if you want me to say that the PT movies weren't very good and that the OT movies were better, fine - I totally think that. The OT movies were better all around. But yes, Lucas was always massively commercial, and to claim that there were some pure past days of high Star Wars art - either in the late 70s/early 80s or in the late 90s/early 00s - is seeing the past for what one wants it to have been instead of what it actually was.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Mar 22, 2013
  2. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    You're doing the exact opposite, decrying the past as terrible and claiming the future is the savior of Star Wars.

    They're both extreme views at the opposite ends of the spectrum.
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 22, 2013
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  3. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    I still say that if Ep. IV had the same amount of hype and expectations as the PT films and had competition in regards to its special effects it would have been viewed similarly to how the PT films are viewed. ANH really has a lot of the same problems that the TPM and AOTC have but there were no expectations for it and nothing that could rival its special effects.
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  4. Gallandro Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    Agreed, ANH is paced almost like TPM with a big beginning, lull in the action for about 35 minutes. And likewise, had Lucas been able to put TPM on the screen in '77 I suspect the film would have been hailed as a visionary.

    Yancy
  5. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Well, Disney is the savior of Star Wars whether we want it to be or not. They own it, and they're going to expand the franchise, end of story. Which is fine - having seen what they've done with the Muppets, Marvel, and Pixar, I have every reason to be optimistic.
  6. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Well then do not complain about others doing the opposite, calling out their opinions as rose-tinted. It's hypocritical.

    I'm not offended or anything - I like the originals, two of the prequels, and will hopefully like the sequels. Just pointing out the flaws. [face_peace]
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 22, 2013
  7. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Hm? Rose-tinted how? Disney has earned my trust in these matters by turning out high-quality films with the properties they've bought in the past few years. I simply expect that a group of people who've done well in the recent past will do well in the immediate future - no different than saying that I expect that the next time I go to Ruth's Chris, I'll get a pretty good steak. If that's what my past experience has shown, why wouldn't I think that now? There's nothing "rose tinted" about that.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Mar 22, 2013
  8. Gallandro Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 4
    Hold the phone here, let's go over what exactly Disney has done with some of these franchises/holdings:

    Pixar: Prior to the Disney buyout Pixar was creating all sorts of original creative goodness with films like Bugs Life, Monsters Inc., Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Ratatouille... under Disney's leadership we a now moving to more spinoffs. Now granted Toy Story III was great, but Cars 2 was dreadful, not sure about Monsters University, and do we really need Finding Nemo 2 (what is he lost again?)

    Marvel: Marvel has released, one, yes one film under the Marvel banner. Thor, Captain America, which were integral to mythology of The Avengers.

    The Muppets: Well The Muppets was a great start, but the franchise is definitely on life support, and if Muppets... Again, does not have big numbers I doubt we will see them again anytime in the near future. Disney seems to have a hard time marketing this franchise.

    Yancy
  9. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    That was in reference to people who were looking back and claiming it was great, not to you. [face_peace]

    I'm a bit cynical is all, as I say my optimism is tempered by all the cancellations we're getting at the moment. I'll likely feel different once we get over the hump, and see all the new projects being revealed.

    I also want to point out that although I disagree with you a lot it seems, I enjoy these discussions. It's good to see (or hear, or read I guess) a different point of view from my own.
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 22, 2013
  10. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    The obvious difference is that ANH has clear Story/plot motivations and characters that is easy to understand. TPM has none of that and is just a huge mess that doesn't make sense ANH also had a superior editing as well (which I believe won it an Oscar) that TPM does not have.
  11. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    ANH was remarkably simple. You could tell the exact same story in pretty much any setting and it would work.

    Evil king takes over and kills the good kind and eliminates his armies. Evil king has a dragon to scare the peasants into obedience. Soldier loyal to the old regime gives his sword to a peasant and inspires in him a sense of duty and a can-do attitude to take up the fight. They rescue the daughter of the former king who was being held captive and slay the dragon. Yay, the end. Make the Emperor the evil king, make Luke the peasant that was knighted, the Death Star is the dragon, etc.

    It's a very simple story.

    ESB was also very straightforward.

    ROTJ I felt floundered because it's pretty much just a re-hash of ANH, only with an extended sequence of Han being rescued from Jabba and Ewoks. Evil King comes back, has another dragon...

    The prequels, especially the first two (I thought ROTS was pretty straight forward) I think were overly ambitious and much more convoluted. Complex =/= better all the time.

    In TPM the villain isn't some evil Empire... It's a trading cartel blockading a planet in protest over taxation of trade routes, under orders from the evil Emperor from the OT. The Jedi get involved because the Chancellor tried to help and skirt around the bureaucratic stalling. Sidious wants Padme to sign the treaty to legalize the invasion, presumably so he can use the crisis to get Valorum removed from office. It wasn't really established that Valorum was disliked, or that Palpatine was a charismatic member of the senate that was in a likely position to capitalize on that event.

    But regardless, Sidious' plan fails when the TF and Maul fail to get the treaty signed, we take a long detour to Tatooine just to get Anakin into the picture and get a race scene, and in the end Palpatine ends up getting everything he wanted anyway. He even states that she is young and naive and easily controlled... so it seems like nothing the Jedi did mattered. And Palpatine does manage to manipulate Padme really, really easily. It was also odd to see Palpatine mention the bureaucrats as being corrupt and on the payroll of the TF when Mas Amedda stalls Valorum (presumably advising him to concede to the TF and Congress of Malastare's objections), yet guess who becomes Palpatine's vice chancellor... Mas Amedda.

    Yeah, the EU can plug the holes and make the film more palatable. But as a standalone film, I thought TPM was really kind of bad. Even just some scenes of exposition to explain what's going on with some of the characters' situations would have helped, like establishing the controversy Valorum was involved in (mentioned in the script, but not the film). Or had Palpatine scolded Maul for his failure but then alluded to the idea that he would have to adapt his plan to account for Padme coming to Coruscant, etc.

    When I watch Chronicle, I feel like that's what Anakin's character progression should have been more like. The bad guy of that film begins in an abusive home. Acquires powers which is both the best and worst thing to happen to him as he begins to make friends and fit in, but then also begins to abuse those powers. Instead Anakin is the adorable (annoying) little optimistic slave, with the lovable slave master and loving mother. Then when we see him as a Jedi, he's just super ****** all the time and moody. I felt like the opposite would have been better. Make Watto abusive, Shmi is more of a world-weary person, Anakin is in a terrible situation. Then the Jedi rescue him from that, his life starts to look up, he tries to do the right thing, but then it all collapses and he goes to the Dark Side. Don't make his life as a slave the shining ray of sunshine in his life and then make him a miserable person when he's a Jedi.

    Oh... And Padme thinks that Dooku - the leader of a secession movement - tried to assassinate her, the person that is voting AGAINST an army to fight that secession movement? [face_plain]

    I felt like simple works in favor of the OT - except the ROTJ rehash. Lucas reached too far with the PT IMO and it made for convoluted and messy stories that perhaps could have been fixed in script re-writes had he collaborated with someone.
  12. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    In regards to Anakin's path I think his story works quite well the way it was told. If they gave Anakin a horrible life before the Jedi came along and they basically saved his life I think it would have made little sense that he would eventually turn against them. But the fact that he was given a somewhat good life beforehand I think fits in well with why he has so many issues with the Jedi order as far as what they believe and follow.

    I think that the fact that a 14 year old girl is queen not so much because the throne was handed down to her through a line of family succession but instead she was elected through popular vote is a much worse storyline than Anakin's.

    I think Padme should have just inherented the crown through family relations instead of being elected. I think the reason they had her be elected is because just like with Leia Lucas wanted a strong willed female lead character. And being elected makes her look stronger than just someone who inherented the throne.
    Last edited by darkchrono, Mar 22, 2013
  13. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    The thing is, Anakin hates slavery in all other pieces of prequel material. He blows a gasket whenever he sees it. TPM doesn't mesh well with that.

    Personally, I think it would have made a lot of sense had the Trade Federation killed the Queen, and then Padme was the next in succession. Palpatine then could have banked on the fact that a 14-year old would easily give in, but we find out Padme is much stronger-willed than he gave her credit.
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  14. darkchrono Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah, I could only assume that a civilization that would 'ellect' a 14 year old to rule them would be a civilization where everyone was dead by 20. That was the storyline that always bugged me the most about TPM. It would have been entirely believable to have a 14 year old inherent the crown (as that happened all the time in real life anyway) but instead they chose her to be 'ellected'.
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  15. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    I'd say make Amidala perceived as weak, even by her own people. Like she's a joke.

    Her parents die. She ascends to the throne as a minor with Sio Bibble as the Prime Minister that is the real ruler until she comes of age. She's more of a powerless figurehead and Bibble has the real power and people suspect that he might not step down even when she comes of age because he's so popular. There's the chance that he'll remain de facto ruler of Naboo and Amidala can't really do anything about it.

    Bibble also has too much pull in the senate that he cannot be allowed to make it to Coruscant. If he does, then Palpatine knows that other systems will rally to his cause, push back the TF and ruin Palpatine's plans. Palpatine wants the TF or Maul to kill him. Maul does so. The rest flee back to Coruscant where the minority queen is used as a pawn by Palpatine and nobody is really flocking to Padme's side. Valorum would have helped Bibble and sent the Jedi Knights to do so, but isn't trying too hard to help Padme. Valorum is ousted. But then unexpectedly Padme is shown to have a backbone, she launches a counterattack on the TF in which they are defeated and Maul is killed, and she wins the respect of her people.

    And just for tickles and grins, I'd have Palpatine NOT become Supreme Chancellor. His plan doesn't work out and then he has to regroup in AOTC - arranging the creation of the Separatists - to have another shot and finally launch himself into the Chancellor position. It would make it so that the good guys winning actually has negative consequences for Palpatine. He doesn't just always win.
    Last edited by TaradosGon, Mar 22, 2013
  16. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    The worst things for me with TPM is that the Sith and there motivations are never explained, Why have they been extinct for millenia, Why do they want revenge. why are there only 2 and why do they have Darth as their first name ? which is glaring when there is a film called Revenge of the Sith and we never know what they want revenge for
    Last edited by fett 4, Mar 22, 2013
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  17. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    It was something easily avoidable too, Padme could have been either a Constitutional Monarch (more belivable) rather than "elected"
  18. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    Well, I don't really think that needs further explanation. Windu says, "The Sith have returned?", and it was implied they were gone for over a thousand years (or a little less than a thousand now that we have the Darth Bane novels). The Sith want revenge for being nearly wiped out, and you can get that just from Windu's comment.

    TPM has many, many problems but that isn't one of them.
  19. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    The Sith may want revenge for shrinking there robes in the washing machine we just do not know, and the audience should not have to read a book to have the motivations explained. As for Mace I would not read to much in his pronouncments as he also goes "A Sith Lord", in Sith too ;)
  20. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    The 1,000 year gap I felt was just arbitrary. The story benefited in no way from establishing that the Sith were extinct for a millennium. This isn't like Harry Potter where the characters are in denial about Voldemort's return for the longest time. Yoda entertains the idea that they could be back and it's confirmed by the end of the movie. It's never explained what a Sith even is. Nor how Yoda knows that there are always two if they've been extinct since before he was even born. That would imply that they were following the Rule of Two before their alleged extinction, which apparently isn't the case according to either the EU or Lucas. So it's just odd that Yoda has this knowledge and it is never explained why. Lucas talks about how in the past there were many, many Sith. That is never mentioned in the films. If you had NO knowledge of the EU, you would be inclined to think that there have always been only two Sith.

    There are some details that could just be changed without affecting the story - like making Anakin older. Had Anakin been 19 years old himself (as Luke had been), they could have had the exact same story as TPM without the annoying child actor. Had the movie started with the Jedi knowing full well that there are Sith out there, it wouldn't have changed anything. Instead of wanting revenge for something in the past that was never explained on screen, they could simply be trying to take over the galaxy and the story would be completely unchanged aside from dropping references to revenge. You could have even replace the TF with a Sith fleet and tell the same story.

    Sith are invading Naboo, the Republic isn't helping. Corrupt bureaucrats in the Sith's pocket stall the decision. Padme goes back and drives the Sith from her planet. Meanwhile Palpatine uses the situation to get himself into a position of power.

    Instead of saying that there were once many Sith and that they eventually numbered only two under Darth Bane 1,000 years ago. You could pretty much fold that plot directly into the prequels themselves. In TPM there are many Sith vying for control of the galaxy. By the end of ROTS, Palpatine is in power and has betrayed them all - destroying Sith and Jedi opponents alike, and ensuring that only he and Vader are the only two Sith.
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  21. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2010
    star 4
    You don't have to read a book. Windu's comment says the Sith have returned. Ki-Adi-Mundi says this: "Impossible! The Sith are extinct! They have been for nearly a millenium."

    You've not got to underestimate your audience, I'm pretty sure most would come to the conclusion that the Jedi wiped the Sith out.
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  22. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
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    I am sure they would but WHY were the Sith wiped out, what did they do that was so bad. We never know, Compare that to Lord of the Rings where we know what the Ring is, how it was lost and Sauron was defeated and how it ended up in Bilbo's possession all in the first few minutes of the film.

    Ironically the whole opening scrawl in Starwars was originaly just a device to tell the exposition of whats going on and it could have been easily used for this purpose here.

    Filoni himself made a good point about RotS and the Jedi going to arrest Palpatine because he is a Sith would have had no bearing on the senate since they would be, well who cares as long as he has the trains run on time.Now all it just seems is that Palpatine simply told the truth when he talked about the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi.
    Last edited by fett 4, Mar 22, 2013
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  23. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
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    Well, the Sith are evil. :p

    But I guess you're right, not everyone will have seen the original films and know what a Sith is and what they're capable of. I think TPM is weak in most aspects, not just in the plot, it's not enjoyable to watch.

    I haven't watched TPM in many years, whereas I watched the other 5 just last week.
    Last edited by 07jonesj, Mar 22, 2013
  24. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Lol I think AotC is even worse with even more problems but that's a thread for another day :D

    As for the Sith being evil,perhaps but then considering the Jedi don't care about Slavery, have no problem taking new born babes and indoctrinating them in a creepy cult like environment, are willing to use a genetically grown slave Army to fight their wars, Are willing to stage military Coups to overthrow the Govt, have no problem either decapitating guys in front of their kids nor watching there "brother" who they love burn to death, nor train up his son to commit patricide, I don't exactly consider them good either ;)

    It's all down to a certain point of view

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  25. 07jonesj Force Ghost

    Member Since:
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    I like AOTC. :p

    Yes, I'm aware that the Jedi and Sith are very much in a grey area, but on the surface to the average viewer; Jedi = good, Sith = evil. That's helpfully denoted by the different coloured lightsabers. Also, Maul doesn't speak to people much. That's very rude. Clearly a villain.
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