Amph Game Of Thrones (NO SPOILERS for unaired episodes!!)

Discussion in 'Community' started by VadersLaMent, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    Why would Stannis accept someone without any claim to be his Queen/King? According to the laws, Robert won the Iron Throne fair and square thus establishing a Baratheon dynasty with the Targaryens having no claim to the throne besides as being "cousins" to Robert, Stannis, and Renly.
  2. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    No, it's just Ghost's interpretation.

    And the season 1 histories do tell the story behind "The Rains of Castamere," so it definitely wouldn't be "spoilers" to talk about... something that happened decades before the series started.
    Last edited by Darth Guy, May 6, 2013
  3. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    She did, yes. And even if she hadn't, the fact remains that Selyse was actively discouraging Stannis from spending any time with her, or treating her at all like a human being. She calls the girl "nothing," a "distraction," and says Stannis should "keep away." He eventually has to pull rank and issue a royal command just to get a glance at the girl. Shireen is most certainly imprisoned.

    This behavior is also consistent with Melisandre plying the slave trade in this week's episode, as she buys and sells human beings against their will.

    Re: The Evil Of Tywin Lannister

    I think the show has somewhat underplayed it. He's certainly been ruthless, but many of his outright cruelest deeds from times past have never come up in the show. He's more a terrible father than evil political figure.
    Last edited by Jabba-wocky, May 6, 2013
  4. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    No, that's just wocky's interpretation.
    Darth_Invidious likes this.
  5. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    It is more that many of my friends who haven't read the books find Tywin really likable and don't see him as that terrible. Thus, Ghost's interpretation is just built on that foundation.

    Shireen seems quite capable of getting around Dragonstone for someone that is supposedly imprisoned. Selyse only thinks it is important that Stannis keep his focus on winning back his rightful throne thus allowing him to save the realm, thus she is willing to make important emotional sacrifices. In how, she is a true martyr for the people.
  6. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    Just more people who didn't pay attention to Tyrion's story, I guess. And that even in his most "likable" scenes with Arya he threatened her with death for making a dry comment. I think, if anything, it's Charles Dance's charisma rather than the writing that's misleading the audience.
    Last edited by Darth Guy, May 6, 2013
    solojones, Dingo and Jedi Merkurian like this.
  7. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    One of them actually agreed with Tywin in that story, which is extremely unsettling to say the least.
  8. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    Congrats, you're friends with a psychopath.
    solojones and -polymath- like this.
  9. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    To be fair, the details were extremely vague in Tyrion's AGOT/first season rendition of it. But yeah, like I said it was unsettling.
  10. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Just pay attention to the lyrics of The Rains of Castamere and you can get the gist of it. The Lord of Castamere was stubborn and refusing to yield to Tywin, who had besieged his castle's walls. And then the last lines of the song, "And now the rains weep o'er his halls, with no one there to hear" show that Tywin had utterly obliterated everyone who lived there.

    The moral of that story? Don't **** with Tywin Lannister.
    Last edited by timmoishere, May 6, 2013
  11. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    It's precisely because of Tywin's nature that I like him as a character. Hell there's only one character in the show that I dislike and that's Shae. Boring character, terrible actor playing her and without any redeeming factors. She's not even that nice to look at. Though I suppose Lysa and Robin Arryn could count if you include their appearance in all of one episode.
  12. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I don't really see how the Castamere Rebellion can reflect negatively on Tywin. Yes, it was an exercise in collective punishment and disproportionate response. But it was also entirely expected behavior in feudal political system, and a major cause of intra-imperial conflicts historically. Historically, Nebudchadnezzar sacked Jerusalem for precisely the same reason. Likewise, Thutmose III's seige on Meggido. You aren't allowed to wantonly stop paying tribute or switch vassalage. Without even being underhanded, Tywin just assembled a fighting force and stomped them. It's the equivalent of Ned Stark beheading a deserter from the wall.

    Tywin's actual bad acts have been largely personal: rejecting Tyrion, ruining his marriage, et cetera. But we've been used to a wide gap between public and private behavior for a long time, too.

    The only other thing the show has gone over is his betrayal of Aerys. But after listening to Jamie's sob story, a naive viewer could be forgiven for thinking that Tywin might've had some more complex motive behind his seemingly dishonorable actions. And I don't think they've ever really delved into House Clegane' activities at the time, or the Lannister response to them.

    What are you thinking of that would make people define Tywin as especially bad?
  13. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Wocky: I'll tell you in the other thread.

    Yeah I don't think usurpation is actually legal.
  14. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    Robert and Ned had every right to rebel when Aerys II called for their murder without due cause, seeing how they only owe him loyalty as long as the king is keeping up his duty to equally respect and protect them.
  15. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    That's not how it works at all. Aerys was an absolute monarch. He had a right to command whatever he wanted so long as he was still alive. There was no basic minimum set of "rights" that people had guaranteed, and they certainly didn't allow for open rebellion. You might agree with what Robert did, but we should be clear that the laws have nothing to do with it.
  16. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    Westeros is quite clearly a Feudal Society, thus it likely they share the sense where monarchs and their Lord hold mutual feudal responsibilities to each other.
  17. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    The Chinese have a concept that would support your argument, viz., the Mandate of Heaven.

    :-B
  18. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Will we actually see Tywin do something terrible? It seems they've just vaguely told us he's done bad things in the past, but haven't shown anything yet that would make people who just watch the TV show seem him as the ultimate evil the book-readers seem to see him as.


    As for Shireen, she obviously wasn't supposed to be there, she just knew the guy who had guard duty that night gets drunk and falls asleep. I don't think her mother knowingly lets Shireen leave her tower.
  19. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    Of course Shireen isn't allowed in the dungeons. She's a child. Do we let children wander around jails?

    As for Tywin:

    -Tyrion told the story. When he found out Tyrion had married a lowborn prostitute, he had her gang raped by his guards right in front of Tyrion and forced Tyrion to take part. This was an innocent person, and someone Tyrion had loved. How could you not see that as evil?

    -The incident "The Rains of Castamere" is based on. The Reynes openly defied their liege lords, the Lannisters. Tytos, Tywin's father, was too weak-willed and gentle to take any action against them. So Tywin did it himself. Any lord would have put down a defiant vassal in some way or another, but Tywin exterminated the Reynes. The line in the song "and now the rains weep o'er his hall with no one there to hear" is meant literally.

    -The Defiance of Duskendale. Duskendale is part of the Crownlands around King's Landing. Much like the Reynes, the Hollards were openly defiant and refused to do things like pay taxes. Traditionally the Hand of the King, Tywin, would take care of it, but he and the King were growing to dislike each other so Aerys II wanted to handle it personally. The Hollards incapacitated his guards and held Aerys hostage while Tywin gathered a force around Duskendale. When Barristan Selmy managed to rescue his king, Aerys (traumatized by the experience and by all accounts beginning his descent into madness) and Tywin, again, exterminated the Hollards. They only spared the child Dontos because Selmy requested it.

    -The Sack of King's Landing. Tywin ordered Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch to eliminate Rhaegar's family, and they raped Rhaegar's widow and brutally murdered her and his two young children.
    Last edited by Darth Guy, May 6, 2013
  20. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    What Darth Guy said, moreover you have him basically ordering the Mountain to rape and pillage the Riverlands over the slight that Catelyn arrested his son.

    Moreover, in the books he basically hires a number of the worse sellswords in the world to also rape and pillage the Riverlands for the same reason.
  21. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    And let me be clear: the things I listed except the Defiance of Duskendale have been covered by the show or in the histories included with the Blu-rays, so they're part of the show's canon (and there's no reason to think Duskendale isn't).
    Last edited by Darth Guy, May 6, 2013
  22. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    I do see all that as evil, I've been saying that from the beginning... just saying there are more evil characters than him in the TV show. He's politically ruthless, but except for what he did to Tyrion, he isn't needlessly cruel. The same can't be said for other characters in the show. What I said that started this whole thing off is that I can see Littlefinger being built up to become the main series antagonist because I don't think Joffrey and Tywin will last much longer.
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, May 6, 2013
  23. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    If you want to discuss feudal rights, then by droit du seigneur Rhaegar was perfectly entitled to take Lyanna's maidenhood. There was nothing for the Starks to complain about in the first place.
  24. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    No because the Lord's Right has been abolished in the Seven Kingdoms by the Targaryens. Moreover, neither Ned or Robert rebelled because of the issue of Lyanna but instead because Aerys II called for their heads for no reason.
  25. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I still have to agree with Ghost about Shireen. The prison thing was an admittedly bad example, but they didn't give the impression that the girl gets out much. Nor did that seem to be by her choice. Even within the royal apartments, she was especially secluded. Compare that to the kind of freedom of movement enjoyed by Bran, Rickon, Tommen, or even Robin Arryn. Combined with Selyse's clear shame about the girl's existence, I think there's a strong case that she is having her movements and activities restricted.

    What does that matter? It was the verbal decree of a King. The command could be reinstated just as easily as it was undone.

    The rest of your response is a little disingenuous. They were summoned because their Houses were judged to be in open rebellion, as evidenced by Brandon Stark's open assault on the Crown. I guess I'd like to get an understanding of what counts as a reason if trying to assassinate someone's heir doesn't.
    Last edited by Jabba-wocky, May 6, 2013