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Amph Game Of Thrones (NO SPOILERS for unaired episodes!!)

Discussion in 'Community' started by VadersLaMent, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. BootlegVader

    BootlegVader Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 3, 2004
    Why would Stannis accept someone without any claim to be his Queen/King? According to the laws, Robert won the Iron Throne fair and square thus establishing a Baratheon dynasty with the Targaryens having no claim to the throne besides as being "cousins" to Robert, Stannis, and Renly.
     
  2. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    No, it's just Ghost's interpretation.

    And the season 1 histories do tell the story behind "The Rains of Castamere," so it definitely wouldn't be "spoilers" to talk about... something that happened decades before the series started.
     
  3. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    She did, yes. And even if she hadn't, the fact remains that Selyse was actively discouraging Stannis from spending any time with her, or treating her at all like a human being. She calls the girl "nothing," a "distraction," and says Stannis should "keep away." He eventually has to pull rank and issue a royal command just to get a glance at the girl. Shireen is most certainly imprisoned.

    This behavior is also consistent with Melisandre plying the slave trade in this week's episode, as she buys and sells human beings against their will.

    Re: The Evil Of Tywin Lannister

    I think the show has somewhat underplayed it. He's certainly been ruthless, but many of his outright cruelest deeds from times past have never come up in the show. He's more a terrible father than evil political figure.
     
  4. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    No, that's just wocky's interpretation.
     
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  5. BootlegVader

    BootlegVader Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 3, 2004
    It is more that many of my friends who haven't read the books find Tywin really likable and don't see him as that terrible. Thus, Ghost's interpretation is just built on that foundation.

    Shireen seems quite capable of getting around Dragonstone for someone that is supposedly imprisoned. Selyse only thinks it is important that Stannis keep his focus on winning back his rightful throne thus allowing him to save the realm, thus she is willing to make important emotional sacrifices. In how, she is a true martyr for the people.
     
  6. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Just more people who didn't pay attention to Tyrion's story, I guess. And that even in his most "likable" scenes with Arya he threatened her with death for making a dry comment. I think, if anything, it's Charles Dance's charisma rather than the writing that's misleading the audience.
     
  7. BootlegVader

    BootlegVader Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 3, 2004
    One of them actually agreed with Tywin in that story, which is extremely unsettling to say the least.
     
  8. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Congrats, you're friends with a psychopath.
     
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  9. BootlegVader

    BootlegVader Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 3, 2004
    To be fair, the details were extremely vague in Tyrion's AGOT/first season rendition of it. But yeah, like I said it was unsettling.
     
  10. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jun 2, 2007
    Just pay attention to the lyrics of The Rains of Castamere and you can get the gist of it. The Lord of Castamere was stubborn and refusing to yield to Tywin, who had besieged his castle's walls. And then the last lines of the song, "And now the rains weep o'er his halls, with no one there to hear" show that Tywin had utterly obliterated everyone who lived there.

    The moral of that story? Don't **** with Tywin Lannister.
     
  11. Mustafar_66

    Mustafar_66 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    May 20, 2005
    It's precisely because of Tywin's nature that I like him as a character. Hell there's only one character in the show that I dislike and that's Shae. Boring character, terrible actor playing her and without any redeeming factors. She's not even that nice to look at. Though I suppose Lysa and Robin Arryn could count if you include their appearance in all of one episode.
     
  12. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    I don't really see how the Castamere Rebellion can reflect negatively on Tywin. Yes, it was an exercise in collective punishment and disproportionate response. But it was also entirely expected behavior in feudal political system, and a major cause of intra-imperial conflicts historically. Historically, Nebudchadnezzar sacked Jerusalem for precisely the same reason. Likewise, Thutmose III's seige on Meggido. You aren't allowed to wantonly stop paying tribute or switch vassalage. Without even being underhanded, Tywin just assembled a fighting force and stomped them. It's the equivalent of Ned Stark beheading a deserter from the wall.

    Tywin's actual bad acts have been largely personal: rejecting Tyrion, ruining his marriage, et cetera. But we've been used to a wide gap between public and private behavior for a long time, too.

    The only other thing the show has gone over is his betrayal of Aerys. But after listening to Jamie's sob story, a naive viewer could be forgiven for thinking that Tywin might've had some more complex motive behind his seemingly dishonorable actions. And I don't think they've ever really delved into House Clegane' activities at the time, or the Lannister response to them.

    What are you thinking of that would make people define Tywin as especially bad?
     
  13. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Wocky: I'll tell you in the other thread.

    Yeah I don't think usurpation is actually legal.
     
  14. BootlegVader

    BootlegVader Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 3, 2004
    Robert and Ned had every right to rebel when Aerys II called for their murder without due cause, seeing how they only owe him loyalty as long as the king is keeping up his duty to equally respect and protect them.
     
  15. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    That's not how it works at all. Aerys was an absolute monarch. He had a right to command whatever he wanted so long as he was still alive. There was no basic minimum set of "rights" that people had guaranteed, and they certainly didn't allow for open rebellion. You might agree with what Robert did, but we should be clear that the laws have nothing to do with it.
     
  16. BootlegVader

    BootlegVader Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 3, 2004
    Westeros is quite clearly a Feudal Society, thus it likely they share the sense where monarchs and their Lord hold mutual feudal responsibilities to each other.
     
  17. wannasee

    wannasee Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 24, 2007
    The Chinese have a concept that would support your argument, viz., the Mandate of Heaven.

    :-B
     
  18. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    Will we actually see Tywin do something terrible? It seems they've just vaguely told us he's done bad things in the past, but haven't shown anything yet that would make people who just watch the TV show seem him as the ultimate evil the book-readers seem to see him as.


    As for Shireen, she obviously wasn't supposed to be there, she just knew the guy who had guard duty that night gets drunk and falls asleep. I don't think her mother knowingly lets Shireen leave her tower.
     
  19. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Of course Shireen isn't allowed in the dungeons. She's a child. Do we let children wander around jails?

    As for Tywin:

    -Tyrion told the story. When he found out Tyrion had married a lowborn prostitute, he had her gang raped by his guards right in front of Tyrion and forced Tyrion to take part. This was an innocent person, and someone Tyrion had loved. How could you not see that as evil?

    -The incident "The Rains of Castamere" is based on. The Reynes openly defied their liege lords, the Lannisters. Tytos, Tywin's father, was too weak-willed and gentle to take any action against them. So Tywin did it himself. Any lord would have put down a defiant vassal in some way or another, but Tywin exterminated the Reynes. The line in the song "and now the rains weep o'er his hall with no one there to hear" is meant literally.

    -The Defiance of Duskendale. Duskendale is part of the Crownlands around King's Landing. Much like the Reynes, the Hollards were openly defiant and refused to do things like pay taxes. Traditionally the Hand of the King, Tywin, would take care of it, but he and the King were growing to dislike each other so Aerys II wanted to handle it personally. The Hollards incapacitated his guards and held Aerys hostage while Tywin gathered a force around Duskendale. When Barristan Selmy managed to rescue his king, Aerys (traumatized by the experience and by all accounts beginning his descent into madness) and Tywin, again, exterminated the Hollards. They only spared the child Dontos because Selmy requested it.

    -The Sack of King's Landing. Tywin ordered Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch to eliminate Rhaegar's family, and they raped Rhaegar's widow and brutally murdered her and his two young children.
     
  20. BootlegVader

    BootlegVader Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 3, 2004
    What Darth Guy said, moreover you have him basically ordering the Mountain to rape and pillage the Riverlands over the slight that Catelyn arrested his son.

    Moreover, in the books he basically hires a number of the worse sellswords in the world to also rape and pillage the Riverlands for the same reason.
     
  21. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    And let me be clear: the things I listed except the Defiance of Duskendale have been covered by the show or in the histories included with the Blu-rays, so they're part of the show's canon (and there's no reason to think Duskendale isn't).
     
  22. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    I do see all that as evil, I've been saying that from the beginning... just saying there are more evil characters than him in the TV show. He's politically ruthless, but except for what he did to Tyrion, he isn't needlessly cruel. The same can't be said for other characters in the show. What I said that started this whole thing off is that I can see Littlefinger being built up to become the main series antagonist because I don't think Joffrey and Tywin will last much longer.
     
  23. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    If you want to discuss feudal rights, then by droit du seigneur Rhaegar was perfectly entitled to take Lyanna's maidenhood. There was nothing for the Starks to complain about in the first place.
     
  24. BootlegVader

    BootlegVader Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 3, 2004
    No because the Lord's Right has been abolished in the Seven Kingdoms by the Targaryens. Moreover, neither Ned or Robert rebelled because of the issue of Lyanna but instead because Aerys II called for their heads for no reason.
     
  25. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    I still have to agree with Ghost about Shireen. The prison thing was an admittedly bad example, but they didn't give the impression that the girl gets out much. Nor did that seem to be by her choice. Even within the royal apartments, she was especially secluded. Compare that to the kind of freedom of movement enjoyed by Bran, Rickon, Tommen, or even Robin Arryn. Combined with Selyse's clear shame about the girl's existence, I think there's a strong case that she is having her movements and activities restricted.

    What does that matter? It was the verbal decree of a King. The command could be reinstated just as easily as it was undone.

    The rest of your response is a little disingenuous. They were summoned because their Houses were judged to be in open rebellion, as evidenced by Brandon Stark's open assault on the Crown. I guess I'd like to get an understanding of what counts as a reason if trying to assassinate someone's heir doesn't.