Discussion in 'Community' started by VadersLaMent
, Apr 17, 2011.
If it was never consummated is she really Queen?
Queen comes from the marriage, not the sex. Stannis's wife has given him no male heirs; she's still a queen.
In old timey law, lack of consummation could mean a marriage could be later voided or annulled but it didn't mean that the marriage didn't occur. It's just that consummation finalized the marriage, especially as it usually rendered the bride unable to marry again.
I'd assume Westerosi law was similar, but I have no idea.
I didn't think you needed a male heir for the marriage to be considered consummated, she just had to be pregnant. Is that incorrect?
Sent from beyond the Wall
Consummation simply means that the couple is known to have had intercourse with one another. Whether they ever produce issue or not is beside the point.
Less. Consummation is just the sexual act itself. There's no reason to imagine Stannis's marriage wasn't consummated -- though they have no children, their wedding would've presumably had a bedding ceremony like any other. That we've not seen it on the show so far is because Tyrion and Sansa didn't go for it, while the 2 other weddings we saw were interrupted before they could get to that part.
Well, I guess there was Robb's wedding which was presumably consummated at some point before they died, since they were getting on with it before the wedding regardless.
edit: bah, ninja'd by Wocky.
As she is now a widow (twice over), and has no child, Margaery cannot be queen. The only reason Cersei was still considered queen was because Joffrey wasn't an adult yet. That's why Oberyn made all those jabs at Cersei regarding her former status.
I suppose now that Joffrey's dead, Cersei will resume the Queen Regent role until Joffrey's younger brother comes of age.
Well, we have to differentiate between two different things.
Cersei is queen because she was queen consort to Robert. If Margaery's marriage stands up (and I have no idea if it will or not, based on that line from the episode preview), she'd be queen too. Being regent is entirely separate, and one can be regent without being queen (Ned was going to be regent and Lord Protector, recall).
Of course, Robert died so Cersei went from being queen consort to queen dowager. But since she was also regent, and since queen regent is a higher title than queen dowager, she went by queen regent.
So yes, you're correct in your overall gist in that Margaery will not be queen regent. She might be queen dowager. We'll have to see.
I don't know that there is a tradition of the bedding ceremony in "TV Westeros" - Cersei in the first season speaks of how Robert whispered Lyanna's name in her ear the night they were married when they went to bed together, and didn't mention any bystanders or observers.
Stannis certainly consummated his marriage, he has a daughter, after all. Not to mention the fetus jars his (show) wife collects.
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There is. Robb explains the tradition to whatever his magical fairy princess Florence Nightengale wife was when they carried off Edmure. As for Cersei, that really could've happened at any point in the evening after everyone had left. Or even while others were there, for that matter. It would've been pretty rather irrelevant to her feelings.
As jello says, the line in next weeks preview basically says that she wont be Queen. Cuz she seemed pretty pissed. Does that imply her mother had something to do with it, i.e. they're discussing her mothers actions, or is she just venting?
Olenna is Marge's grandmother. She's the mother of Mace Tyrell, Marge's father and lord of Highgarden.
I think it's pretty obvious that Margeary doesn't become queen by succession, succession passes to Thommen, since wimmenz don't count.
As for who dunnit, I agree with Iello that it's obvious if you're a book reader, and for non-readers, more obvious in the show than in the books because of it being a visual medium. I'll say more in the other thread.
It's not that Marge is a woman. She's not part of the Baratheon-Targaryen bloodline (as Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella ostensibly are). Succession is male preference, but if, say, Tommen didn't exist, Myrcella would inherit.
Precisely. The "wimmenz don't count" was directed at Myrcella, not Marge.
Custom Lego minifigure sets available...
At least you'll be able to easily represent Jaime Lannister's character arc. Or Ned Stark's, if he had a figure.
So then Tommen is the king, and Cersei is queen regent once more?
True, but these are show-only people so the knife... there are sharper ones in the drawer.
Also, Dinklage was wonderful as Tyrion in this episode. Not to say he's not otherwise, but the quiet dignity of dealing with Joff was a standout for him.
The dialogue certainly implies that Marge's grandmother had done it. Though Oberyn probably isn't above poison. Plus there's the fool. Was it quick thinking to get Sansa out, or was it planned?
I think the culprit is obvious:
Caught in the act:
oops. yeah, i meant the grandma.
No show-only viewer I've talked to knows who the real poisoner is with any certainty. They've made good arguments for all the main suspects and then some, but they haven't pieced it together because they don't know what they're looking for, nor has the story moved forward enough with the information that the readers got soon after to put 2 & 2 together (let alone the background info and setup that wasn't in the show). Assuming no one spoils it for them, they'll be able to go back on the re-watch and scream "Ah-ha!" which should be fun for them.