main
side
curve

Amph Game Of Thrones (NO SPOILERS for unaired episodes!!)

Discussion in 'Community' started by VadersLaMent, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    1. So. . .what was the point of this discussion? The timing I proposed was after the Ramsay incident. So according to you, she had lost faith in him by that point. And according to the show, she was angry at him by that point and felt he had "sold" her. So what's the problem with moving the execution up some, again? You just conceded that your own reasoning isn't a valid one. What are you talking about? The only stipulation you placed on things--that it has to come after the Bolton marriage--would be true of literally any time in this entire season. Which is what I said. Congratulations.

    2. First, how would he escape? Rocket pack aside, he's not a magician. If he tried to flee on horseback he would get rode down, in no small part because there are Stark loyalists at the Neck.

    But put that aside. You started this discussion huffing about how my scenario is something "Ned would never do." You've now just conceded that what actually happened is something Ned would never do. So what was the point of saying that? Obviously it wasn't a meaningful objection. This is the second time you've just flatly contradicted yourself, and in the space of only a few sentences at that.

    3. Where did Arya say the key part of her mistrust was Littlefinger's influence? I'm pretty sure Arya gave a whole speech about why she was threatening to murder Sansa. It included things like her political ambition, and some childhood contrasts like her love of pretty dresses and desire to be important. Which are all points of bitterness or concern between the two of them. You know what didn't come up? Littlefinger.

    3b. Arya is a pretty straightforward person. If she dislikes you, she literally threatens to murder you. She keeps a list of all those she hasn't gotten to yet. You know whose name never came up? Littlefinger.

    Except, magically, accordingly to you, Arya's real concern the whole time was just about Littlefinger, so having him executed solves all the problem that were unrelated to him and which she never associated with the guy when explaining herself. I'm sure that's the truer answer.

    ***

    This is really a separate conversation because it's a different sort of dumb, but your imagination is pretty limited in regards to this whole dragon issue. Breathing fire is hardly the only thing they could do. Dropping boulders on enemy armies as a form of aerial attack? Mobile platform for archers or spear throwers? Using its teeth and claws against the wings and underbellies of Dany's dragons, thus rendering them unable to fly? Harrying Dany herself so she gets thrown off Drogon's back to her death? I could pretty easily imagine an aerial battle with two dragons swooping and diving at high speeds, rolling and turning loops, parrying each other while they race across the sky and avoid the landscape. Apparently you can't though, because all you understand these to be are big stupid flamethrowers. Good job,
     
    Hodor likes this.
  2. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    You're missing my overall point though: it's not about one particular issue. It's about the writers playing fast and loose with everything, from how magic works, to timeline, to character and plot consistency. They've sacrificed all of that time and again in the name of mindless spectacle.
     
  3. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    You can't just bundle everything up & make broad generalizations. In the case of this dragon-wight they're not playing fast & loose with anything, except perhaps some fans' assumptions.
    Sure they could have the dragon do all of that. Perhaps they will include some of it. But why not also have it still do what dragons do - breathe fire? You haven't come up with any definitive reason why that should be ruled out. Like I said, dragons esp in this show are all about fire. They're referred to as "fire made flesh". If Viserion can't breathe fire & if fire is deadly to him as it is with human-wights, I see any confrontation with Dany's dragons lasting about ten seconds. He won't get a chance to use his sharp teeth & nasty claws.
     
  4. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    As opposed to you blindly accepting anything and everything
     
  5. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    What?? Having to walk you through these simple details is getting tiring. Yes she'd lost faith in Baelish after the Ramsay situation. But only to the point of rejecting him & not bringing him back into the fold. Not to the point of executing him. That was demonstrated in that meeting between them & Brienne last season. She had the opportunity to kill him & didn't. So you have to get from that point to a point where she is willing to kill him. What's more, after that Baelish answered her call for aid & saved the North! Which makes it impossible to envisage Sansa deciding to execute him - unless there are further reasons to push her to that point. That's what you've failed to establish with your silly "execute Baelish at the start of the season" idea. That's why that idea is an abject failure in storytelling & characterization.
    :oops:The point is, Littlefinger is the last person alive who you'd want to forewarn about turning against. That's such a self-evident point it doesn't deserve discussion. If you can't see that obvious fact then talking about this show with you is pointless.
    This is deteriorating fast. In your desperation you're conflating two separate points together to try to make a point. Hoping I wouldn't pull you up on it. I said that no Stark including Ned or Sansa would sent a written request for aid, have that call answered & then execute the person who provides that aid without further reason. Which is what you're proposing should've happened. As a separate far more minor detail, I agreed that Ned wouldn't have the guile or nous to keep his cards close to his chest with a guy like Littlefinger & publicly blindside him with charges as Sansa did. He'd show his hand & then probably come unstuck. This is a point that's made very clear in this season. That Sansa has taken the Stark ways & combined them with some of the guile & strategy that she's learned from Baelish & Cersei.
    Seems your only means of following the plot is dialogue. How limiting. Arya's concerns about Baelish's influence on Sansa was made abundantly clear from the moment she discovered that he was in Winterfell, & as she kept observing the two of them together.
    Well spotted. That's what this arc was about. Arya then also Sansa & Bran uncovering all of Littlefinger's crimes & then having him face justice in the end.
     
  6. Jordan1Kenobi

    Jordan1Kenobi Host of Star Wars Character Contest star 6 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Pointless rebuttal incoming...
     
  7. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Perhaps it's time to ignore the other person and change the topic...
     
  8. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
  9. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    I just realised that the cute girl who plays Colleen in Defenders was in GoT , she was one of the sandsnakes .

    .
     
  10. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
  11. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    1. Further reasons? How about his attempts to turn her against Jon, which according to you were so obvious that even Arya can notice them despite being completely non-political? Her ability to notice this would show considerable insight on her part. That would be an actual mark of acumen, unlike just noting that you need food for the winter because you can't grow more at that time, which even the lowliest servant has figured out.

    2. You don't seem to understand why Ned warned Cersei. It wasn't because honor compels him to forewarn every victim of every judgment. He certainly didn't forewarn Gregor Clegane or the deserter he executed in the opening scenes of the show. He warned her only because he felt her children were "innocents" that would be harmed in the subsequent events.

    Baelish has not such excuse. Nor do we need to imagine "tricking" him at all. He sits in court at Winterfell every day. We've seen him leaning against the wall plenty of times. If she announced his arrest on one of those occasions, what is he supposed to do about it?

    3. Your reasoning is dumb. Personally saving someone's life does not excuse them from being a murderer. Especially if the way, they saved you depended on the previous crimes against your family, which is supposed to be of paramount importance in GoT. By the way, this is the chief accusation Sansa brought against Littlefinger, with the Arya point as only an afterthought. Watch the actual trial scene.

    3b. We should also note that of everything, trying to make her and her sister dislike one another is the only thing that isn't an actual crime. Advisors jockey for influence all the time. Varys and Littlefinger spent years trying to undermine one another at King's Landing, and none of that was criminal. Pycelle and the Grand Maester? Yet, despite this being perfectly okay in world, it's your idea that Sansa would fly into an outrage about this and execute him, while shrugging off actual crimes like murdering senior political leaders.

    4. I'm not relying on dialogue because I can't use other clues. I'm relying on dialogue because Arya gives a speech that's several minutes long where she lists every single problem she was with Sansa. Except, according to you, the single most important one, which is more weighty than everything else she says. Never mind that this makes no sense, and is really inconsistent with Arya's very vocal nature. Once again, these are not just pieces on a chess board, moving towards the END GAME. They are supposed to actual human beings.

    If Arya has never behaved this way before, it is terrible writing if she has to do so now in order for your story to make any sense.
     
  12. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
  13. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Dunno whoever saw Logan Lucky (according to box office numbers, not a lot) but there is a fantastic, 3 minute non-sequitur riff involving prison inmates about the gap between Game of Thrones novels and the TV seasons going past it.
     
  14. Jordan1Kenobi

    Jordan1Kenobi Host of Star Wars Character Contest star 6 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    I loved that!
     
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  15. Ghost_Jedi

    Ghost_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2003
    Where is this bar?
     
  16. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Apparently in the books, the Fire Religion has a very small but powerful army that's based in Volantis called "the Fiery Hand."

    Could that be why Meilisandre went back to Volantis in the show (while saying she'll return again, to die)? Will Melisandre pull a Gandalf at Helm's Deep (or Littlefinger with the Vale at Winterfell) in Season 8 with this army?
     
  17. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    I'll give you some credit. At least you're finally conceding that your harebrained idea of having Sansa do an inexplicable about-face & executing LF, after sparing him a few episodes prior & then receiving aid from him was woefully inadequate as a plot development. LF needed to give her significant further cause for her to get to that point. Unfortunately the reason you've now scrambled to find falls way short. LF is a master at saying things that seem innocuous & inoffensive but over time sow doubt in people's minds. So what egregious thing that he said would justify a death sentence? One that in the early episodes Sansa would need to justify to Jon, who was present & in charge, & also the Vale Lords who were at Court as well as all of her people? What "comment" by him was a capital offense? This is your idea that warrants everyone being on board with Baelish's execution. If the show had gone that way, rest assured it would rightly be accused of "terrible, dumb writing" to quote your good self. The only other crime that Sansa could put on the table, apart from LF's mean & nasty words is the incident with Lysa. The problem with that is, she already swore in evidence to Royce etc that Lysa attacked her & Baelish tried to save her resulting in Lysa falling to her death. So, even if Sansa had the reasons & motivation to want Baelish executed early in the season (which she didn't) she had neither the authority to order that (while Jon was there), or a strong case with which to prosecute him, or most likely the support of anyone to carry out the execution of a guy who had just saved the North. Your problem is that you just don't see the big picture. You can't see past your desire to find fault & complain.
    Sure. & what does that have to do with anything? What he failed to account for is that Cersei & Baelish are sneaky deceitful manipulators. Some guile & cunning was required to pull off his gambit of blocking Joffrey from the throne. As one example, he failed to recognise that LF flat out told him that his plan was stupid. LF is an ambitious survivor. He was never going to back a play that he didn't believe in. That would have him on the losing side. To really get LF & therefore the Gold Cloaks on board he needed to sell a scenario that LF did believe in.
    So essentially you're lecturing a messed up teenager who back then had just experienced a horrendous & long ordeal. Only to be rescued from it, arrive at her aunt's castle & have that aunt go bat-sh** crazy & try to kill her. According to you it's reasonable to expect her to be all rational & noble & adhere to the letter of the law. Even if it meant having the guy arrested who back then seemed to be the only person looking out for her. You lack even the most basic understanding & empathy for these characters.
    What?? No it wasn't. The "chief" accusations were the betrayals of Jon Arryn & Ned Stark, which led to their deaths. In explaining LF's crimes Sansa actually outed Lysa for murdering Arryn, at the request of Baelish. Lysa was already an unpopular nut, now she'd been exposed as the killer of her Lord & husband. LF's dropping of Lysa through the moon door, particularly after Royce etc had heard conflicting evidence about it, was no doubt the most minor steak-knives charge of the lot. She'd been confirmed as not only the killer of Arryn but also a co-conspirator with Baelish in sending the letter to Winterfell & stirring hostilities which led to the war. You see, this is where the show succeeds where your ideas fail. By the end all of Baelish's crimes could be laid out, including his part in their father's demise. Notably his role in the deaths of Arryn & Ned were revealed in front of a court full of Vale & Northern Lords. This is what allowed for a just execution.
    You've gone right off the rails here. You begin your argument by saying that Sansa early in the season had enough cause to have Baelish executed for the manipulative words he was saying about Jon. Now you're saying that would not warrant death at all. In fact it's not even a crime!! You're starting to have a Smeagol/Gollum style disagreement with yourself 8-}
    Which you should've taken into account when you were carrying on about Sansa not prosecuting Baelish after he saved her from her crazy aunt Lysa.

    We really ought to wrap this up. It's no fun watching you flail around presenting incoherent arguments & contradicting yourself. This has degenerated into nonsense.
     
  18. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002

    Filmed in Chicago.
     
  19. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    1. Being "crazy" is not enough to justify letting a noble's murder go unavenged. Literally half the Targaryens were insane and unhinged--there are multiple sayings about it. Even the people putting Dany in power aren't wholly confident of her sanity. The line the Mad King crossed was. . .unjustifiably killing nobles.

    Everyone would be fully supportive of killing Petyr for no other reason than his murder of Lysa Arryn. Even though she was disliked. Even though she was mentally ill. That you fail to get this shows just how badly you misunderstand what this setting is supposed to be. That's why Sansa mentions this charge first (which also signals it as most important).

    1b. We know how Sansa feels about Lysa's murder because she articulates it during the trial. While earlier she might have been grateful, by this Season the character now sees it as an illegitimate, self-serving power grab. Which is exactly the sort of crime you bring charges and execute people for, as she in fact did.

    2. Making comments is not a crime. But it can make Sansa angry enough that she decides to bring charges about his actual crime: murdering her Aunt. For that matter, several months of rape and torture is a deeply traumatic process. There's absolutely no reason she might not feel one way about it at first, and then completely unprovoked change her mind a few days/weeks as she continues to process her emotions. Such an out come would be not only perfectly understandable but perfectly legal as well.

    3. This whole time, you've still never explained why someone who comes to court willingly every day in Winterfell had to be "tricked" into. . .coming to court. Couldn't they have just left Arya alone and arrested him when he showed up as he always does?
     
  20. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    So... you think Sansa was interested in "avenging" Lysa's death? Was there even the slightest indication that was a priority for her in the two seasons following that? And why would it be? Baelish had intervened when Lysa was about to murder her.
    No. You just don't get it at all. Sansa mentioning Lysa's death as well as the far more serious crimes against Jon Arryn & Ned Stark helped to paint a broader picture of murder & deceit on the part of Baelish. Sansa only accusing Baelish of Lysa's murder would've been useless. I'll say again, Sansa had already sworn to the Vale Lords that it was an accident. What's more Sansa clearly understood that Lysa had become dangerous & unstable. Whether you like it or not, Sansa accepted LF's actions in that incident. She had no motivation to go after him for this "crime" on its own.
    You've misread the scene. I don't believe Sansa gave two ****s about Lysa's "murder". She never had before. She was however presenting the strongest possible case against him in front of the Lords of the Vale & the North. So explaining that he conspired with Lysa to murder Jon Aryn, then to send that letter to Winterfell, & then after all of that to murder Lysa painted him in the worst possible light. Obviously Sansa didn't acknowledge that if Baelish hadn't intervened Lysa would've killed her. This was all about convicting LF.
    And a reminder again, Lysa had been outed as the murderer or the beloved Jon Arryn. According to you the most heinous crime there is.
    See previous comments about Sansa's inability to convict Baelish solely on Lysa's death. She had no witnesses & she herself acted as a witness in support of Baelish! What about this aren't you understanding?
    In any case as we've gone over repeatedly, Sansa had met with LF when she was furious with him late in S6. Yet she spared his life. He then came to her aid & saved her & the entire North. This was all a very long time after the Lysa business. This story idea of yours just doesn't work. Give it up.
    There are always many ways to present a story. They had to choose one. LF is a master manipulator & as usual he was having some success pitting Arya & Sansa against each other. Once they got together, also with Bran, figured everything out & pieced together all of LF's crimes they decided he had to face justice. But they had to tread carefully. Bcs of his dangerous resourceful nature & also bcs he had allies among the Vale Knights & Lords. The best idea was exactly what they did. Have him blindsided with his litany of charges in front of the entire Court. That way he had no opportunity to cut any deals, shore up support, bribe people or who knows what else. Sansa also probably wanted a fitting end where she played the guy who had been playing her all of these years. Where she could have him think that all of his wishes were about to come true. That Arya would be dispensed with & then she'd be left for him to continue manipulating. She wanted to publicly beat him at his own game. You could see the satisfaction Sansa & Arya were getting from this setup. So there were several layers to the reasons for Sansa deciding to play it out like that. Both from a strategic pov & a personal one.
     
  21. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    Rylo Ken made a point a while ago that it was unfair to the writers that Martin hadn't come out with the next book. I would put it differently: what was unfair to them that the book was supposed to come out and didn't. Has they known when they started the show that DOD was the last book they would have as a basis for their show, they could have started plotting the story out themselves far sooner.
     
    laurethiel1138 and Rylo Ken like this.
  22. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Not that they necessarily would have done a better job had they been able to plan ahead. I mean maybe. David Benioff can write circles around GRRM if he's applying himself. Martin has never written anything remotely close to the magnificence of City of Thieves. But Martin is the best expert at his own universe, so there's no real substitute for whatever he thinks is supposed to happen.
     
  23. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I think the way that GoT has gone shows that they never really had a multiple-season plan and mostly plan it during pre-production or whatever during each season. This is demonstrated by the fact that they felt the need to stretch Storm of Swords over two seasons and almost completely skip over/change the subsequent two books. It is also demonstrated by sloppiness such as continuity errors (Sand Snakes needing to have literally teleported in order to get from the dock they were standing on to the ship they were waving off) and bigger things such as a highly religious society not caring very much that one of their holiest places was blown up/the Sparrows disappearing.
     
    Abadacus and yankee8255 like this.
  24. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003
    yeah I did think there'd be some bigger consequences to Cersei blowing up that cathedral place ( who did they blame it on btw ?)
     
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  25. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    Not to mention how Cersei became Queen despite having no claim to the throne whatsoever to top it all off.
     
    Jedi Merkurian and Darth Guy like this.