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Amph Game Of Thrones (NO SPOILERS for unaired episodes!!)

Discussion in 'Community' started by VadersLaMent, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    Guys, please stop "trolling" by pretending that this story should have any rules beyond "will this look cool?"
     
  2. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Well, they bungled succession in general. Ellaria/the Sand Snakes take over Dorne despite them being bastards, Ellaria having no Martell blood, and most of all they murdered their own uncle and cousin, the ruling Prince and his heir. Kinslaying is a particularly grievous offense. Plus Jon getting declared King in Da Norff despite having been in the Night's Watch (yes, he found a loophole BY BEING BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE how does that not terrify everyone) and a trueborn Stark sitting right next to him/having saved his dumb ass in battle. The show seems to be under the mistaken impression that succession is completely arbitrary and not many people in-universe would have any objection to it. There were multiple civil wars fought over succession (Dance of Dragons determined that women could not succeed before any legitimate men, and the Blackfyre rebellions solidified the "trueborn" Targ claim, War of Five Wealthy Landowners was ultimately about Joffrey/Tommen's legitimacy) and when there weren't wars there were Great Councils (the one that elevated Maester Aemon's younger brother, Aegon V).
     
  3. epic

    epic Ex Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 4, 1999
    Jabba-wocky i request your support in the battle for the most honourable Hodor. he was a kind and noble man, dedicated to the end, and is in need of your assistance in these trying days.
     
    Hodor likes this.
  4. Rylo Ken

    Rylo Ken Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Dec 19, 2015

    If you've watched any of the "making of" videos, it seems almost miraculous that the showrunners haven't been so completely overwhelmed by the scope of their production that even consistently making the show look cool has moved beyond their reach, more or less what happened to Peter Jackson with the Hobbit "trilogy."
     
  5. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002

    PAY ATTENTION everyone. This is how you troll people. First you troll the living holy hell out of a thing and make sure to beat that dead horse into oblivion. Then just claim everyone else is trolling.
     
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  6. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    May 31, 2005
    I like to pretend Dorne never happened.

    That's one thing I don't get about D&D. If you follow shows like Braking Bad and Better Call Saul, or Bartlestar Galactica before that, you see how vitally important a good writing staff and the writers room are. But the last few seasons, when they don't have Martin's books to go by anymore, they have the main writing credits for many of the episodes. Given their lack of experience, you'd think they'd be trying to bring in as much help as possible.
     
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  7. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    I forgot to mention probably the most important thing: without clear succession, the whole system falls apart and there would be wars every time a ruler dies. (And before anyone mentions "democracy": no, that's not a thing. Most nobles barely care about the common people, and even when elective monarchy is employed in extraordinary situations there still needs to be familial continuity.) For example, who is Jon Snow's heir? How can a non-legitimized bastard be a ruler? Would his child be legit even though his father is not legitimized? Would "Snow" actually become the dynasty's name? What of all the other bastards named Snow?
     
  8. Ghost_Jedi

    Ghost_Jedi Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 27, 2003
    The trial of Petyr Baelish was for the Knights of the Vale. They needed to show that Baelish was responsible for the murder of their Lady in order to maintain their support going ahead. They needed to make sure Yohn Royce would be on their side and to Guide Sweet Robyn that his execution was just.
     
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  9. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Agreed except it wasn't about Lysa's death at all. To the Vale Knights & Lords it was about Jon Arryn. Sansa told them that Lysa poisoned him at the request of Baelish. So Littlefinger killing her just saved them the trouble of executing her. Jon Arryn was their beloved Lord. Lysa was the crazy woman from the Riverlands who killed him.
     
  10. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    Is that seriously what you think?

    Sansa offered no evidence of her claim about poisoning Jon Arryn. As much as you might have personally disliked Lysa Arryn, the Vale Lords were content to follow her leadership for literally months. They all saw how she was, and they were still okay with obeying her. They still came to investigate what she died. You don't seem to have any idea what kind of story this is.
     
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  11. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Quite a poor analysis there. What evidence did she provide about the murder of Lysa? In fact she'd previously testified that it was an accident. No, the big revelation for the Vale Lords was that Lysa & Baelish murdered their Lord. An absurd notion to think they'd be more upset about the death of the woman who killed him.
     
  12. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    She is literally the only other living witness. She was there.

    Which, you know, they know she wasn't when Jon Arryn got sick and died. So there's no way she would have known.
     
  13. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
  14. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    You can't have it both ways. Either they believe Sansa or they don't. If they accept her story that Baelish killed Lysa - after she'd previously vowed that it was an accident then why would they not believe that she'd discovered the truth about Jon Arryn? If she can be a witness to Lysa's murder she can just as easily be a witness to an admission by Baelish or Lysa. So, given that it's quite clear that they do believe Sansa, that means they accept that Lysa & Baelish murdered Jon Arryn. Which also happens to be the truth. Lysa had been rightly exposed as the murderer of their Lord. It's all there in the scene. Sansa even named the poison they used.

    I'm surprised you can't see how "dumb" it is for the Vale Lords to say "we believe you about Lysa (even though this contradicts your previous story), but we think you're lying about Jon Arryn" o_O
     
  15. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    There's no "both ways."

    They believe her about things she was an eyewitness to. She was one of two people left alive in the room after Lysa Arryn got pushed out of the Moon Door. She saw what happened.

    As for Jon? She says that she "lied" and "killed" for Petyr without ever specifying who. While she lists Catelyn and her husband as people who stood in the way of her love with Petyr, she also mentions her father. Her father who lived in the Riverlands, hundreds of miles away. Who supported the King in the North on this show, and died a completely natural, peaceful death. We saw his funeral. So obviously those weren't all confessions to murders. Sansa doesn't even have a basis for believing Lysa had anything to do with Jon Arryn's death, never mind all the exact details about what poison he used. Rewatch the scene.

    I don't know what sort of logic you use but "things you saw with your own eyes" versus "stuff you have no way of knowing" seems like a very legitimate distinction to use when deciding whether to believe someone or not.
     
  16. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Why are you talking about the scene with Lysa back then? The Vale Lords weren't there to see it so how is that relevant? We're talking about them accepting Sansa's charges against Baelish here in this episode. It's quite a leap for them to believe Sansa's new version about Lysa's death, after she'd previously stated the opposite. Yet they did. So we can hardly say the Vale Lords are holding to some stringent standards of evidence. You're admitting that they're taking the word of a girl & in doing so recognising that she previously lied to them about it. So it's hardly surprising that they're also accepting Sansa's revelation about the poisoning of Jon. Something she hasn't previously lied about.
    There's absolutely nothing in the scene that suggests the Lords in Court doubted any of the charges Sansa read out. You're just making that up to suit your position.
     
  17. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    1. How does Sansa know anything about what Lysa did or didn't do to Jon Arryn?

    2. How do the Vale Lords know she knows those things?

    The show never addresses these points. Which is probably why you can't either.
     
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  18. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    How did Bran know about Baelish holding a sword to Ned's throat?

    What matters is that Sansa made true accusations about Baelish (& Lysa), & clearly the Lords accepted them. There was no indication that they picked & chose which ones they did believe & didn't. End of story.
     
  19. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    . . .

    This is seriously what you're going with? You have no idea how Sansa knows anything she says but as long as we as show viewers know it to be true everything is okay?

    Tell me again about the great writing.
     
  20. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    Are you seriously going to ignore that she easily has the means to know? She knew about LF betraying Ned bcs Bran went & looked at it. He saw it happen. If she suspected something may've been up with Jon Arryn's death then Bran would just as easily see that too. Bottom line:

    1. Lysa did kill Jon Arryn.
    2. Sansa had the means & resource available to confirm this.
    3. Sansa stated to the Court that it happened.
    4. The Vale Lords proved that they'd placed faith in Sansa's word, demonstrated by their belief in her story which contradicted her previous one.
    5. The Lords accepted the charges as read by Sansa & went along with Baelish's execution.
     
  21. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    What "means and resources?" What are you talking about?

    Why would she "suspect something may have been up with Jon Arryn?" What does that even mean? He got poisoned. That means maybe a couple administrations over what may have been days or weeks or even months. Did she just have Bran watch ever single second of his life in real time until he saw something suspicious happen?
     
  22. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    :rolleyes: Bran is a means of looking at a specific event when asked. Didn't you see that scene between he & Sam?

    Lysa said to Sansa back in that moon door scene: "My husband etc are all dead bcs they got in the way of me & Petyr". So...wouldn't that create some suspicion in Sansa's mind that Lysa was involved in his death? Not that she could do anything about that suspicion, until Bran came along. Now she's forming a case against LF. One that would have the Vale Lords support his execution. We know that she had Bran look at his role in the betrayal of Ned. Sansa read that charge against Baelish before Bran had mentioned anything. So they'd discussed it previously. Do you really need all of the dots connected like this??
     
  23. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    Again, she also said her father died in that same sentence. Except her father died a completely natural death of old age that involved no foul play by anyone. Did Bran watch all six decades of that guy's life from start to finish, too, waiting for evidence of a crime to emerge?

    And what exactly would Bran have seen, watching Jon Arryn? His food probably wasn't prepared in front of him.

    Ned's betrayal was on one specific night. That's a short, finite time to investigate. You are talking about multiple people over a span of potentially several years. This plot device really doesn't work the way you want it to. Probably because the show runners didn't put any actual thought into this.
     
  24. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 5, 2001
    What are you talking about? What relevance would her father have to Sansa & the case she's building against LF? It's simple: Lysa all but admitted she killed her husband. Sansa had the means to confirm this via Bran. Anything else they looked into, be it Lysa's father or whoever is irreverent. Let's remember they also had Lysa's letter suspiciously accusing the Lannisters of the crime. All of that pointed them in the right direction.

    Bran at a whim can find the time & place that Rhaegar & Lyanna married in secret. Are you saying it's impossible for him to confirm that Lysa administered poison to Jon Arryn? Or just greensee-travel to the time she wrote that letter? Ridiculous. We know that's what happened. Like you said, how else could Sansa know about this? Even the type of poison that was used.
    The problem yet again is that you're asking to be spoon-fed every last detail. Whereas the show assumes its audience is capable of figuring out the obvious.
     
  25. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 9

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    May 4, 2003
    1. That's what your missing. Lysa never came close to admitting she killed her husband in the show. That's a book only thing.

    2. In the show, Lysa claims that both her husband and father are dead after "getting in the way" of her relationship. But she had nothing to do with her father's death. So if these are both in the same category, it's just as likely that these are the insane ravings of a person with known mental illness that had nothing to do with either death.

    3. What would be incriminating about writing a letter? If Bran flashed back to that moment he'd see a woman writing a letter. So what? The charge was that the letter's content wasn't true. To figure that out he'd have to watch months worth of the lives of the Lannister, all their agents, Jon Arryn, and Lysa's lives. This comment from you doesn't make any sense.

    4. Again, Rhaegar and Lyanna were at a specific place for a very limited number of days. Even then, he couldn't find the event until Sam described it exactly. That's world's different than saying "Hey somebody's death involved foul play of some sort from someone at sometime during the last several years of his entire life."

    5. Of this is your approach to story-telling why do we even need another season? They can just release a one minute clip of everyone smiling happily with summer returned, all enemirs vanquished, the Wall rebuilt, and the White Walkers defeated. Then you'd say "Obviously whatever is required to get to this outcome is what happened. Stop asking for details."
     
  26. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 22, 2003
    hold on tho - Bran can't really be a source of evidence in a legal sense , I mean he could claim to have seen anything ,

    and Baelish folding like that was just a real let-down .

    .