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Amph Game Of Thrones (NO SPOILERS for unaired episodes!!)

Discussion in 'Community' started by VadersLaMent, Apr 17, 2011.

  1. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I don't buy it. He's spent the entire time as Hand finding out just how dangerous the Lannisters are -- how they've schemed their way into power, how they've frightened Stannis Baratheon and Lysa Tully away from court, how they'd possibly poisoned the previous Hand of the King, how they've arranged to mask bastard children as the children of the king. Perhaps Ned wasn't imaginative enough to imagine Cersei as anything but a paper lion, but it's precisely the point that he relied too much on officialdom and title and not enough on actual power that marks his true faults as Hand. Tyrion grasped what Ned Stark never did, despite given ample opportunity. Varys did try to make him wise to the ways of the court, but Ned was too stiff-necked to see it.

    He didn't see the world as the way it was, but just the way he wished it would be. You cannot reshape the world by stubbornness or willpower. Ned failed to grasp reality. He was a kid playing an adult's game. He was honest and honorable, and I am not one to ever disparage those qualities (unlike other characters in the series who might have no use for those virtues), but you can be honest and honorable while still realizing what's going on. I don't blame him for necessarily failing to grasp the threat that Cersei presented, but his failings are more glaring than all that: he systematically failed to understand King's Landing, and that led to his downfall.

    And the reason for that was not ineptitude. Ned was not a stupid man, and he could grasp things quickly when he let himself. The problem is that he was unwilling to let himself see. Cersei rightly saw Ned as the greatest threat to her power over the king -- it's likely that only he could have salvaged things without causing a war, if he had only been wiser and less headstrong.
     
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  2. The Great No One

    The Great No One Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2005
    that, and less assuming that everyone else held to honor and honesty at least a little bit. i think that was his greatest flaw honestly, thinking that everyone still had that basic spark of "goodness" if you will. which obviously they didn't.
     
  3. tom

    tom Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2004
    nah, ned wasn't some naive, sheltered guy who was out of his depth. he knew some people had no honor and he cut off their heads often. he just sucked at the game, because you pretty much have to be a scoundrel to play it well.
     
  4. Havac

    Havac Former Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2005
    Yeah, his biggest problem was that he wasn't willing to compromise his morals and stoop to their level to play the game. Which worked fine for him in the North -- he ruled, he did the right thing, he won the respect of far more people than he made enemies of, and if someone opposed him, he punished them. He did the right thing, he played within the system, and the system worked. That was his experience, and he thought it would work in King's Landing if he just imposed it hard enough and had the king behind him.

    Ned thinks the Lannisters are snakes, sure -- but he thinks Tywin is the real snake, the real power, the guy to be worried about. He thinks Jaime is untrustworthy and ambitious. But Cersei -- she's ambitious, but he has no experience of that kind of personal ambition in a woman. His experience is women who want to advance their children, their brothers, their fathers, who do their bidding and say nice things about them at court and protect their children's interests. Not women who murder their husbands and arrange palace coups on their own initiative, have the political power to effectively depose the rightful authority of the Hand of the King, and will do all that rather than flee the king's justice. I don't think you can underestimate how much Ned relied on the fact that he was Hand of the King -- he was the greatest official in the realm. That authority was completely ignored and disregarded when it mattered by everyone in King's Landing. That's an outrageous situation. Ned didn't expect that the system would be that broken, in a perfectly normal peacetime situation. He spoke with the voice of the king, and the voice of the king was ignored by everyone from lords down to guards. In a medieval society, that's outrageous, incredible, inconceivable. Ned wasn't naive, but he had a base expectation that the system of power would work without completely breaking down. That's not a ridiculous expectation, because he couldn't know going in just how bad it was.
     
  5. The Great No One

    The Great No One Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2005
    havac said pretty much what i meant far better than i did. so... yea. that.
     
  6. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2011
    But anyway, six days to what I believe will be the best season of Game of Thrones!
     
  7. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    The showrunners have always said that they think if they pull off adapting the major events of the third book, the rest of the series is guaranteed to be aired.
     
  8. JackG

    JackG Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2011
    IDK, I personally think some of the audience would struggle with AFFC's pacing, but we will see. I expect they'll do the first half of AFFC and ADwD in season five.
     
  9. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Events from those two books will likely start happening in season 4.
     
  10. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Yeah, future seasons will likely not coincide with the plots of the individual books. There's going to be a lot more overlap and fudging with the timelines.
     
  11. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    To echo what Havac said, even Littlefinger was completely blindsided by what Cersei was capable of. And this is someone who had years of experience in court intrigues and was unhindered by honor or morality. The only reason why he is alive is because Cersei wasn't in the mood to follow through with her kill order.
     
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  12. Miana Kenobi

    Miana Kenobi Admin Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2000
    As season 4 is going to be the second half of ASoS, I will have to defer that season 4 is going to be the best. ;)
     
  13. themetresgained

    themetresgained Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 23, 2013
    Interesting article on TheVerge.com on a Q&A session with GRRM - no spoilers

    Ha!
     
  14. Adam of Nuchtern

    Adam of Nuchtern Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
  15. Mustafar_66

    Mustafar_66 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2005
    Just found out that David Nutter is directing the last two episodes of the season. Excitement has gone up tenfold.
     
  16. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Havac - I don't disagree with any of that analysis. I just think that he should have started to pick things up, especially with what he was learning from Varys and Littlefinger, that would have let him suspect that his official authority might not be as helpful as advertised. At the very least, I think he knew enough to have accepted Renly's offer -- it's really bizarre that he would consent to bribing the goldcloaks but not consent to accepting Renly's aid.

    Yeah, I think as long as interesting events are sprinkled together and interspersed, I don't think there's a risk of the audience losing interest. We're not gonna get a pure AFFC thankfully.


    edit:
    holy **** that aerial shot of Astapor... they changed the architecture (no pyramids), but daaaamn it's pretty.
     
  17. Jedi Merkurian

    Jedi Merkurian New Films Thread Reaper and Rumor Naysayer star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    May 25, 2000
    Another point: while Tyrion did a bang-up job as Hand, he also had the knowledge that two other Hands had just died. So his immediate plans were centered around "how do I be NOT that guy?"

    Actually, when I think about it, Tywin set Tyrion up to be killed...
     
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  18. The Great No One

    The Great No One Jedi Grand Master star 8

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2005
    the reason he wouldn't accept renly's aid is because renly wanted to become king. and ned just couldn't do that because stannis SHOULD be king. so...
     
  19. Likewater

    Likewater Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2009
    Did any of you see the history and lore of Westeros? Awsome voice overs
     
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  20. themetresgained

    themetresgained Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 23, 2013
    I've seen them all, they're really good.
     
  21. Likewater

    Likewater Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 31, 2009
    My favorites were Quarth and the Free Cities, the actors who play Daxxos and Mormont have magnificent voices, but i figure they might straddle the spoiler lines.
     
  22. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Not really. The histories at most hint at later developments and revelations.
     
  23. Point Given

    Point Given Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
  24. timmoishere

    timmoishere Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    [​IMG]

    Qarth
     
  25. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    It seems that so am I.


    also HBO has a neat sigil maker thing that people have been fiddling with over the past few days: http://www.jointherealm.com/


    [​IMG]
     
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