[Game] THE GREAT DEBATE

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Souderwan, Jun 30, 2007.

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  1. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Well put, Hammurabi. +2 pts for clarifying your arguments in a concise and logical manner.

    Thanks for participating, BlackAdder. An engaged audience is part of what The Great Debate is all about!

    How's that rebuttal coming, Obi-Zahn Kenobi?
  2. Hammurabi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2007
    star 4
    That isn't a fair example. In it, evolution and cuteness are entirely unrelated; B's position doesn't make any sense to begin with. A more appropriate example might be:

    A: Cats have tails because it's cute.
    B: Cats have tails because it's an evolutionary thing and cats evolved from dogs.
    A: Cat's didn't evolve from dogs.



    In the end, however, it comes down to a matter of it not being the government's duty to ensure total integration. To do so would be unwieldy, as different races live in different areas. How would you propose we integrate rural areas, where the population is almost entirely white?
  3. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    It's not the per-pupil funding that's a problem.

    The trending up I'm referring to is the idea that richer constituents of a district will help a school in more ways. For example, at my own alma mater, there was a wealthy orthodontist who made generous contributions to extra-curricular activities. Over the course of five to six years, he bought the football team new weight equipment, headphones, meals after and before games, etc., and the result? Our football team was as socioeconomically diverse as anyone. Most of the players came from lower middle class Hispanic families, with your usual range of other things - rich white kids (the orthodontist's sons), poorer African-Americans, and so forth.

    Nothing I have seen suggests that more per-pupil spending is helpful. The public education system in the United States is wasteful and excessively bureacratic, but regardless

    YOU'RE IGNORING THE ISSUE AT HAND!

    Forget about school bussing - that's just one of the many ways in which it can be done. I will rebut your counter-argument in an appendix (I've gutted your arguments so far so I'll put it in yours).

    The issue at hand is whether or not the government should address racism through selective use of racism. What you just posted has nothing to do with that - you only say that minority schools get more money generally.

    The issue is whether or not the government should use all means necessary to combat de facto racism, even if it means using de jure racism such as bussing.

    APPENDIX (Taken from the inguinal region of Hammurabi's argument)

    http://www.iastate.edu/~rhetoric/105H17/rhollrah/cof.html

    That link reports upon the benefit of extracurriculars. More funding and involvement from the community primrily comes through that. The more involved people there are in a community, with money and time, will result in better students overall. My own football team held a 3.2 GPA, much higher than the schools average (nominally a 2.00).

    This is the type of trending up I refer to. It's an overall thing - better socioeconomic area around the school, better teachers (most districts do not pay teachers at different schools more, and there are rules to prevent monetarily induced transfers).

    lol. Urban areas mostly white. [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    ATTN: Anything Hammurabi says concerning race is now discounted.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_demographics_of_the_United_States#Black_Americans
  4. Lord_BlackAdder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2003
    star 5
    My example was not intended to be fair.
    It was intended to be an illustration of not answering a question.

    Torment not thyself with mine opinion! Your opponent, you must defeat!

  5. Hammurabi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2007
    star 4
    Meant to say rural.

    More response forthcoming.
  6. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    This you say, but it could be that when presented with obvious, directly contradictory evidence to your previous misconception you are backtracking. I suspect this. There your words are, urban and white, written in black and whatever the background color is.
  7. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Obi-Zahn Kenobi:

    Evidence: +3 (nicely supports that part of your argument, but does it cover the larger question you addressed?)
    Logical consistency: +3
    Coherence: +2
    General entertainment value: +5 (Beautiful!!)
    edit: +1 for OZK's edit.

    The current score is:

    Hammurabi: 27
    Obi-Zahn Kenobi: 37

    Good luck with the rebuttal, Hammurabi. This debate is still very much in contention.
  8. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    Nice clarification, Hammurabi--thank you. :) And I like the evidence on extracurriculars, OZK--it squares with my own experience, and yet I hadn't thought of it quite like that before.





    . . . this post isn't nearly negative enough, is it? :(


    Lord_BlackAdder
    has a blatant anti-feline bias!!! :mad:
  9. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Indeed. You're definitely going to have to work on that before it's your turn to debate.


    Better.
  10. Hammurabi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2007
    star 4
    First of all, extracurriculars aren't the best example. Football is (more or less) a useless skill. Academics and technical skills come first. Even if extracurriculars boost academic performance, extra material (weight training machines and so forth) isn't going to directly translate into a better experience or better grades.

    And it's absurd to suggest that increased funding doesn't improve schools. In the example you provided in your initial post, teachers are driven away from poor schools because of the difficulty of teaching in those areas. However, more money means higher salaries, which provide an incentive for teachers to come to a poor area.

    And why should the government make an effort to improve the situation? Things shall improve on their own. Barring de jure segregation, every immigrant group that has come to America has risen to economic parity. So long as the government doesn't directly discriminate against blacks and Hispanics, it's likely that these ethnic groups, like all others, will also rise to parity. Germans, Italians, Irish, Jews, Eastern Europeans, Jews, and Asians have managed to successfully integrate without government coddling. There is no reason to believe that within the next few decades, blacks and Hispanics won't follow suit.

    Rather than racist 'integration', we could economically integrate. We could not do so perfectly, however, without massive costs. Yes, poor people in poor schools have a higher likelihood to end up poor than rich people. However, the United States provides a pretty good amount of social mobility. In a mere ten years, roughly half of all in the bottom fifth income bracket managed to rise to a higher bracket. And as far as I'm concerned, that is opportunity.
  11. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Hammurabi

    Evidence: +3
    Logical consistency: +3 (nice job arguing you point on that one)
    Coherence: +4
    And readability: +5
    General entertainment value: -4

    ?Football is (more or less) a useless skill.? Blatantly false claim. Not to mention?just plain?un-American. You are an American, right? I?ll give you 2 pts back if you aren?t, especially since you're probably referring to soccer.

    The score is:

    Hammurabi: 38
    Obi-Zahn Kenobi: 37

    Obi-Zahn Kenobi, you have one more opportunity to construct a rebuttal and then we'll open the floor up to a Q&A session.
  12. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    Ahem. You did not look at the link - extracurriculars acitivities dirrectly correlate and CAUSE better academic performance. Absolutely ineffective and pointless. A straw man, even. You chose the least useful skills and posted them, ignoring the fact that data and research support this idea.

    What you just suggested is illegal. You are not allowed to pay teachers more to teach at one school over another, whether between districts or schools in a district. That's a stoopid (I went to an underfunded school. :( ) suggestion.

    More money means - more money spent on buildings, books, more teachers (not necessarily the same quality as the ones at better socioeconomic schools), administrators - but not in teachers' salaries in poor schools. These things to not a good school make. They can help, but community involvement is what drives most school success - rich people just tend to be more involved.

    That economic parity argument is not supported by data.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

    Hispanics and African-Americans, groups that have been here for a long time, have not reached economic parity as an ethnic group. Is there any suggestion that they will. Hispanics, maybe, but not African-Americans, who have consistently remained at the bottom since 1620 with the first importation of African slaves.

    Eventually, forced integration will not be necessary, but for now, to address the discriminating factors of racism, present socioeconomic situations, and to ensure that things become equal as quickly as possible, forcing integration will spread the wealth around, to ensure that everyone gets an equal chance to advance through income brackets. Okay, fine, the poor have less of a chance, but I guarantee a black man has less of a chance than a white man. That's not fair - their skin color is different. That's all. That tells me something's wrong.

    It's like a see-saw, if you want it to be balanced, you have to put a little more force on the other end if it's tilted to get it right, and eventually, it will stabilize.

    But who's gonna push that extra bit? The white kid, secur
  13. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    People, we need questions!

    "How did you pwn Hammurabi so badly?" is not a valid question.

    At least not til 7:30 board time.
  14. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Obi-Zahn Kenobi:

    Evidence: +5 (nice rebuttal!!)
    Logical consistency: +4
    Coherence: +4
    General entertainment value: +5 (Dude! Your posturing skills are great. I actually lol?d!!)

    Hammurabi: 38
    Obi-Zahn Kenobi: 55

    Okay, we've reached the Q&A session. Normally, we'd have the audience members submit questions via PM to this sock, but since we have only a few participants tonight we'll forgo that and just let you post them here.

    Question away, folks!
  15. Hammurabi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2007
    star 4
    You missed the weight of my argument. Let me repeat: Even if extracurriculars boost academic performance, extra material (weight training machines and so forth) isn't going to directly translate into a better experience or better grades.

    We're debating changing the law. Whether (under current law) those changes would make a difference is irrelevent; in any case, the law should be changed to allow differences in teacher pay.

    So you're saying community involvement is the biggest factor? What does that entail? I can't imagine it would mean more parental involvement, because that involves entirely on the parents and not at all on the school. What exactly are you talking about? Some rich kid's dad playing with your poor son? :confused:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States

    If you're referring to the racial section in that, it fully supports my claims. Asians' incomes have risen above whites- why can't other races?

    Keep in mind that I stated that barring de jure discrimination, all ethnic groups will rise economically. Blacks have only been free of de jure segregation for forty years. Hispanics have only began coming en masse in recent years. Both are the two newest immigrant groups, when considering that blacks have only been given real status since the 1960s.

    You ignored my source. According to the NYTimes, economic groups will stabilize - and in a very short amount of time.

    In short, you're wrong.



    And Mr. Moderater: I am Hammurabi. King of the Babylonians. Thus, distinctly not American.
  16. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    Was he allowed to rebut me? If so, can I rebut him?

    Otherwise I though the bantering was done, and we would answer questions from the audience.
  17. Kimball_Kinnison Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Obi,

    How do you reconcile your claim that the Government has to "promote the general welfare" through targeted application of racism with the 14th Amendment's insistence that no state shall "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws"? Isn't any form of state-sponsored racism inherently denying equal protection of the laws?

    Kimball Kinnison
  18. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    Sorry, bub, two hours are up.

    SHORT ANSWER: I can't, but I'll think of something if I have to. This debate was particularly tricky because it was the opposite position that I actually support.
  19. Hammurabi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2007
    star 4
    We started late.


    EDIT: Me too, Obi. Though the problem's way too complicated for a black-and-white analysis of the question. Personally, I'm way in favor of socioeconomic integration. But that's all apart from the debate.
  20. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    And last no longer than two hours, and the rules say that the debte concludes with a Q and A section, meaning that it's part of the two hours.

    7:30 sharp is the end. K_K cannot possibly have posted directly at 7:30, within the time limit, so therefore his question is invalid.

    I'm just trying to ensure that I leave the debate with the lead.
  21. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    No, he was not technically allowed to rebut as per the rules.

    Upon reflection, his argument was both entertaining (good Babylonian joke! I'm a sucker for historical humor) and solid enough.

    So, +3 points for the effort, but -3 pts for the fact that rebuttal was officially over, resulting in a net score of zero (0).

    However, Hammurabi is correct that the game was started late, so Q&A will be extended until 11:00 PM EDT (about 20 minutes). Have at it, folks.
  22. Hammurabi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2007
    star 4
    WHERE IS MR. MODERATOR WHEN YOU NEED HIM?!

    *cries*


    EDIT: Well there you are. No points for that post? I wrote most of it before you ended the rebuttal portion, and I didn't see your post until after I posted.

    Besides, I thought it was a good post...
  23. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    Oh, bah upon thy excuses, Ham'n'obi! K_K, I refer to to Justice Stevens' dissent to the recent school segregation decision by the Supreme Court. You may continue to disagree with his points, but there is the most authoritative answer to your question you are likely to find.
  24. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    No, it didn't. You state immediately beforehand that it would start at 5:30 sharp. Therefore, it cannot have started late - Hammurabi was merely late in posting his opening address.
  25. Hammurabi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2007
    star 4
    He's the moderator.

    As far as I know, he's calling the shots - not you.
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