[Game] THE GREAT DEBATE

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Souderwan, Jun 30, 2007.

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  1. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    The Fed is proactive? You're kidding, right?

    A recession is traditionally defined in macroeconomics as a decline in a country's real Gross Domestic Product (GDP) for two or more successive quarters of a year (equivalently, two consecutive quarters of negative real economic growth).

    That right there can be up to 6 months before a problem is even identified, let alone dealt with. The Fed must then decide what action to take. Once that's decided, there's lag time between the decision and implementation, and yet more lag time between implementation and results.

    No, but it precisely proves my point on the chaotic nature of the Beast.

    First of all, it's not just Farmers who would be in each local government, but rather, a whole slew of people, each with their own skills and contributions.
    Second, while it would take some time, having a socialist economy, you could figure out the ebbs and flows, and learn to nip them in the bud. Give it a few years, and the plan fall into place. It will, of course, be different for each place, and will be up to each government to decide their own plan.

    It's a bum knee, actually.




    You are virran! VIRRAN!
  2. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Billionaire Bot! Haha! +2

    Response. +2 (What you're suggesting isn't quite true, but you support your suggestion well enough! :p)


    +1 Good enough.

    That takes you up to 39 pts! Way to close the gap!

  3. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Ok, contestants, it's Q&A time.

    JFT: You suggest that local "communes" are better able to respond to the ebbs and flows of the economy and that they can "nip things in the bud" by reallocating resources as necessary. But from where would these communes get these resources if they are outside of their borders? For example, say they need more doctors right now? Where are they going to get them from? In other words, what if resources needed are people and particular jobs (as opposed to just goods)?

    Ophelia: You seem to suggest that the dips in the market are acceptable, but those dips have historically resulted in people ending up absolutely destitute. Is this really a humane way of doing things in the long run?


    Edit: Audience members, you're welcome to post questions at any time if you like! :)



  4. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Socialism is not anti-trade. If there is something that one commune has that another does not, then a trade can be performed. It does not even need to be an emergency. Part of the planning for a socialist economy can be the allocation of resources for trade. That would be up to the individual communes based on their level of self-sufficiency.



    You are virran! VIRRAN!

    I think I'm doing quite well, seeing as how I'm going up against
    [image=http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/0/0e/Hedonism_Bot.JPG], [image=http://home.earthlink.net/~mountfuturama/clearcutter.jpg], and [image=http://home.earthlink.net/~mountfuturama/chainsmoker.jpg]
    all rolled into one.
    [image=http://home.earthlink.net/~mountfuturama/destructor.jpg]
  5. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    But we're talking about people, here, JFT. What if we need to trade "people". Are you suggesting that these local communes make the doctors go "where they are needed" regardless of how they feel about it? Answer the specific question, please.

    (I'll give you +2 pts for Futurama pics, though :p)

  6. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    Well . . . which dips are we talking about, here? The nature of the "dip" determines the best way to respond. The chart I posted shows the history of the Dow-Jones index from 1900-2003. We start off with an agricultural society, we end with Season II of the Attack of the Clones cartoon. A "dip" at the beginning of that timeline is only marginally comparable to a "dip" at the end.

    The short answer, however, for those worried about destitution in a market-based economy, is A) do not look for large, short-term gains, and B) do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

    If you want answers to the Great Depression or even marketplace shifts caused by globalization, we need to start a whole new debate--which I am up for, chico!

    You and me: Globalization and Asia! Mano-a-mano!

    I shall meet you in Kuala-Lumpur, bearing the Magical Mystical Head of William Safire like a . . . like a stick with an elderly conservative pundit's head on it!!

    [image=http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2023/safirelk3.gif]

    Edit: Hey, JFT stole my epithet. :p
  7. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Well, if the commune with the doctors is a little on the autocratic side, then yes, it may be a simple matter of "Go help them out so they'll give us 3 months' worth of salt." Or it may say "Hey, that town over there needs more doctors for a time. If you go over there, you'll contribute more to the community." And as I said before, more contributions = more compensation.

    Both of those options fit under my military example. Volunteering to go where people are needed is a way to help advance one's career.



    You are virran! VIRRAN!
  8. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    [image=http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f362/Jifty2/cheney_lol.jpg]




    You are virran! VIRRAN!
  9. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    So it's "tough luck, bubba?" Is that what you're saying? Does the government have no responsibility to those who make a mistake and "invest more that [they] can afford to lose?"

    That is actually the question before you. (Nice evasion tactic, though +2)

    Hahahah! You get +2 for making me laugh. Other than that, though. ANSWER THE QUESTION! :p

    Haha! +1 for noticing. -1 for not just mocking him for it. Net = O



    Update: JFT: 42
    Ophelia: 47


  10. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Hmm...+2 points. But you're intentionally ignoring the thrust of my question. What if the doctors don't want to go. You use the military as an example but you're ignoring the fact that, in the military, at the end of the day you go where you're told. So, is that what happens here? You go where you're told, in the end? Is this what you're advocating?

  11. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    The numbers for the economy can also be deceiving. Yes, the economy as a whole might be doing just fine, and unemployment might be at acceptable levels, individuals are not necessarily doing so well.

    The rich get richer, the poor get richer, just not at the same rate as the rich.

    However when the rich get richer at such an extraordinary rate, that leads to an increase in the cost of living, which the poor just cannot keep pace with.

    So the net result is the rich getting richer, and the poor getting boned.

    With respect, I didn't ignore you question. I answered it head on. In a more autocratic community, the "Go or else" tactic could be employed and punishment handed out. Just look to my opening statement. People who do not contribute do not get compensated.

    However, another community might just increase the amount of compensation to entice people to go where they're told. If people still refuse to go, then a cutting of compensation might take place. Hell, the people of the commune might just put new leadership into place if it's against sending doctors that much.

    And if that happens, the original commune can increase the amount of resources they're willing to trade in exchange for the doctors' services.


    You are virran! VIRRAN!
  12. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Interesting (and unsupported) exposition, JFT. +1 for making the classic argument, though.

    Still haven't answered the question, though. -1

    Get to work, my friend! You've got 'till 3:13 p.m. board time.

    Edit: Fixed that to be 3:13 :p



  13. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Just edited my post.

    And edited a bit more to refine my answer a tad.



    You are virran! VIRRAN!
  14. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    Well, yeah. If it looks as if people have suddenly contracted an epidemic case of stupid that will ruin the country, the government intervenes. If it's a local case of stupid, involving just one person, no, they do not.

    Ergo, we save ourselves from Marxist hell, where they can't even manage to get a hell down there.

    Also: JFT, for the love of Pete, why did you not ask those questions of me?!! Those were the ones I prepared for. Sheesh.

    Also: [image=http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6199/jiftydr3.gif]

    The "Edit" button will not save you now.



  15. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I am shamed!




    You are virran! VIRRAN!
  16. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    Well . . . I had to edit the post in which I mocked you for editing . . . [face_worried]

    but you didn't notice SO I'M MOCKING YOU ANYWAY!!

    (MOCK! MOCK! MOCKMOCKMOCK!)

    Edit: MOCK!
  17. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Ahh...I see. A market approach among communes while having a socialist approach within the commune? Got it! +3 pts!

    That brings you up to 47 pts

    Ok. Good response! +2 pts

    Hahah!

    +2 That's just funny!!





  18. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I did notice it, but I was just feeling at peace with my fellow working men and women. Let the Man (TM) put us down all they want, we shall overcome!




    You are virran! VIRRAN!
  19. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007
    [image=http://www.illustrators.co.za/bottger/tahirahdance.gif] [image=http://www.illustrators.co.za/bottger/tahirahdance.gif] [image=http://www.illustrators.co.za/bottger/tahirahdance.gif] [image=http://www.illustrators.co.za/bottger/tahirahdance.gif] [image=http://www.illustrators.co.za/bottger/tahirahdance.gif]

    Thank you all for joining us for another round of?.

    THE GREAT DEBATE!!

    [image=http://www.murderoncue.com/Images/Applause.gif]

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    Beautiful work, the both of you! At the end of the day?

    JFT: 47

    Ophelia: 51

    Well done to the both of you! Congrats to our winner, Ophelia!!

    [image=http://www.murderoncue.com/Images/Applause.gif]

    [image=http://www.prompt-communications.com/pics/applause.jpg] [image=http://www.prompt-communications.com/pics/applause.jpg] [image=http://www.prompt-communications.com/pics/applause.jpg] [image=http://www.prompt-communications.com/pics/applause.jpg]

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    See you next time on?.

    THE GREAT DEBATE!!

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  20. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Socialism and Capitalism are not as opposed as everyone thinks. Neither are socialism and democracy.

    One can have elements of these things to form a near perfect government.

    EDIT: THe debate's over?

    OH THANK GOD! I need a shower to wash away thing Socialist grimy feeling. And I need to spend money, right now. Revel in my capitalism.

    :p

    Pleasure debating with you ophelia.

    Catch you all on the flip side!




    You are virran! VIRRAN!
  21. Mr_Moderator Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2007

    [face_laugh] You gave as good as you could, dude! Well done!! =D=

  22. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    You mean . . . I can revert to my usual, ultra-sensitive-girlie persona now?

    :_| [face_batting][face_love]

    [image=http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/1672/animemr2.gif]

    Okay, that's much better. :)

    Thank you for your participation, JFT! :) I enjoyed your images, your insults (especially "Billionaire Bot," :p) and debating with you. I am strangely flattered to be compared to a collection of evil monster robots.

    Well played! =D=

    Now I have to go find another thread to fight about something else. :p
  23. Souderwan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 6

    Awww...it's so cute. A bit disturbing....but cute. :)

  24. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    I'll "disturb" you, mate. :p
  25. JediTre11 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2001
    star 4
    Why didn't you chose this as a method of argument? There is a ton of centralised control in the current "free" market system. The system has been using socialist programs for almost a century now, thank you very much FDR. Your example of the ideal socialist structure, the military, is actually what saved capitalism in 1941. Were it not for the war effort, unemployment and depression would have gone much longer before recovery, assuming recovery would have happened. Therefore, neither Socialist and Capitalist systems are the most efficient, because neither exists without the other.

    This was an interesting debate for sure, although it was clear that the opinions were assigned instead of chosen. Socialism, the most efficient method of debate I suppose.
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