"Gay month" in British Primary schools

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by halibut, Jan 21, 2005.

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  1. shinjo_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 5
    I meant that I don't believe it is a natural occurrance and shouldn't be taught as such.

    I suppose you're right on that - but I still stand by everything else I stated, even if I do believe it is a natural occurrance (or at the least they don't choose to be a homosexual). Simply take out that comment, and I still stand by the rest of what I said. ;)
  2. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
    I think this idea is quite stupid.

    At the beginning of this thread, Cobranaconda stated that we should inform our kids that not all people are straight. Well, that's only true to a short point. What we're talking about here is flat out promotion of homosexuality, not informing children of this. And the fact that this is pretty much a law is even more rediculous. Force kids to go under homosexual ways for an amount of time? Come on, that just makes me want to puke. I've always thought of there being diversity in the British culture as much as there is here. Notice I said culture, not racial diversity. I say let those who want to believe what they want do it, and let the ones who don't agree tolerate them, but that toleration is reasonable to a certain degree.

    At age seven, a child is in the road to making a path for the rest of their life. If they're taught to follow the ways of one thing different than their everyday thing, they'll follow that for the rest of their lives. I hate to be so dramatic, but this seems like a plot to broaden the diversity in the British culture to me.

    Personally, I view homosexuality as a way of life. A choice, if you will, and I feel strongly that the saying that people are born gay is redundant and false in every way. Do as many tests on everyday public schools as you want and what sex children are attracted to as you like, and you'll see my point.
  3. J-Rod Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 5
    Shinjo, you made a remark I've used alot...Homosexuals are often condemned and have a high rate of suicide. Who would choose that?

    To clarify my own point, it can be influenced by events in someone's life. But, IMO, not chosen.
  4. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
    Shinjo, you made a remark I've used alot...Homosexuals are often condemned and have a high rate of suicide. Who would choose that?

    I realize that question wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer it anyway. People make choices. If they're taught to believe one way, they'll follow it, more than likely. They often become confused and don't know how to get out of it, and in the homosexuals' case, they've taught themselves to be attracted to those of their own sex. When you have something embedded on your brain, good luck at getting it out. That explains the rate of suicide in homosexuals.
  5. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    As long as the facts are, indeed, the facts. We simply don't really know enough about homosexuality for a school to teach a definative class.

    Well many christians say that about evolution as well. Just because you may choose not to see the truth doesn't mean it's a lie.
  6. shinjo_jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 5
    J-Rod - Homosexuals are often condemned and have a high rate of suicide. Who would choose that?

    To clarify my own point, it can be influenced by events in someone's life. But, IMO, not chosen.


    We agree on something - I'm going to have to write this down.

    That last part is where I mostly stand on that issue, but I do not think that it is impossible for a person to be born a homosexual - and can happen at times. However, I think, for the most part, that one is a homosexual if something occurs at a very young age (exposing the child to nudity of the same sex, molesting the child, or possibly even such things as having a boy play with girl toys - Barbies, ect.).

    The top part is what I believe strongly in, and that is that one does not choose to be homosexual - as it is illogical. The suicide rate for homosexuals is higher than it should be, as it isn't unusual for one to commit suicide because they are gay, so I wouldn't understand why they would choose that. Also, everyone here knows that homosexuality isn't greatly accepted in most of the world - and that would mean that someone would choose that way of life, where they know that they won't be accepted and liked by many people, doesn't make sense. It's like choosing to be an African-American in the segregated south.
  7. J-Rod Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 5
    LOL...this is a first...I'm getting thumped from the right and the left. Could that mean I've found a topic I have a centrist view of? (shudder)

    Mos-Espa said...
    People make choices. If they're taught to believe one way, they'll follow it, more than likely. They often become confused and don't know how to get out of it, and in the homosexuals' case, they've taught themselves to be attracted to those of their own sex.


    Hey, people choose to vomit after eating or to cut on themselves. But these "choises" are usually brought on by a tramatic experiance and are not really their own. Thus...not a choise.

    Cyp said...Just because you may choose not to see the truth doesn't mean it's a lie.

    Until it is a proven truth, it shouldn't be taught as such.

    At this moment we would be teaching an opinion brought on by "political correctness" as much as fact.

  8. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    Until it is a proven truth, it shouldn't be taught as such.

    Lets take gravity out of the curriculum as well then.

    At this moment we would be teaching an opinion brought on by "political correctness" as much as fact.

    It has nothing to do with political correctness, you know how I post, I'm the least politically correct liberal on the planet. But it's all completely obvious to me and to most of us that homosexuals do not choose their sexual orientation. Yes, a lot of cases are brought on by sexual molestation or other incidents as a child. But you can't look at a butch lesbian or a very feminine man and tell me with a straight face that they choose to be that way or it's a product of their environment. I used to be friends with this kid who we all knew he was gay at a very young age, probably even at 6 years old. He was just incredibly feminine, and it was most certainly not a product of his environment, his parents brought him up no differently than I was brought up, they were excellent parents in fact.

    But also, I didn't choose to be heterosexual. I'm secure enough with my sexuality that I can say a guy is handsome, but there's nothing there, I don't look a a handsome man and think "mmm...gotta get me a piece of that". It has nothing to do with society, it's just the way I'm programmed. So why would homosexuality be any different?

    But regardless, I honestly don't care if it's natural or not, even though it's obvious that it is. What I look at is that homosexuals are a part of society, and it's incredibly important to me that society learns to be tolerant of homosexuals. They shouldn't have to live their lives in the closet afraid of what their parents might think, they shouldn't have to be chastized because of their sexual preference. So it's all about tolerance for me, and just like we teach racial tolerance in school we should teach tolerance towards homosexuals.
  9. J-Rod Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 5
    So it's all about tolerance for me, and just like we teach racial tolerance in school we should teach tolerance towards homosexuals.

    On this point we agree.
  10. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    On this point we agree.

    But I think it's crucial if there is to be tolerance is for people to understand why people are homosexuals, or at least understand that in most cases it's a matter of biology.
  11. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
    Hey, people choose to vomit after eating or to cut on themselves. But these "choises" are usually brought on by a tramatic experiance and are not really their own. Thus...not a choise.

    People do stupid things, however, I don't think the examples you listed can compare to homosexuality.
  12. J-Rod Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 5
    But I think it's crucial if there is to be tolerance is for people to understand why people are homosexuals, or at least understand that in most cases it's a matter of biology.

    I'm not saying it isn't possible to be a natural occurrance. I am saying the research is not there yet.

    I accept my alcoholism, yet I don't understand it. It isn't required for acceptance. Granted, it can help, but that is not a reason to teach theory as fact.

    EDIT:People do stupid things, however, I don't think the examples you listed can compare to homosexuality.

    Driving twice the legal limit on a busy freeway is stupid. It is something you may choose to do.

    Bolimia, self-mutilation, and, IMO, homosexuality are disfunctions. Unnatural compulsions, if you will. And not really something you choose to do.

  13. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
    I can agree with you on the "disfunction" part to a degree. It is un-natural, however, I'm kind of getting the vibe that you're saying that it's more of a mutation than a choice. I don't entirely agree with that, but hey, you have the right to your beliefs. :p
  14. Charn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2004
    star 8
    Age 7 is a bit much isn't it?
  15. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Cyprusg, we needn't conflate a need for tolerance with teaching one unproven theory about the origins of homosexuality.

    As for your personal antecdote, being "effeminate" does not equal being gay. The first has to do with gender roles as defined by society, the second with sexual preference. There plenty of effeminate boys and manly girls/tomboys that are perfectly heterosexual.

    As to your comparisons to evolution and gravity, those are unfair comparisons and you know it. In the first case, there is admittedly something of consensus that evolution is the best extant theory. But this is simply not the case with homosexuality. Period. As for the second, of course we know that given the nature of the scientific method, nothing is "proven." But once again, your semantic games don't change the fact that there isn't a broad scientific consensus on this issue, even if there will be in the future.

    I would, in fact, argue that it's this kind of thing that people find more objectionable. No one is saying homosexuals should be abused or treated unfairly. But to declare something fact just because it "seems obvious" to you is stupid. It also "seems obvious" when you look out on the horizon that the Earth is flat. But that's not the case, either.
  16. Branthoris Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2002
    star 3
    Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa, the ocurrence of homosexuality in non-human populations suggests to me that it is a perversion (in the non-pejorative sense!) of the basic sexual instinct that happens, always and everywhere, in a certain percentage of the population. There is no evidence whatsoever that a person's sexuality can be changed; all attempts to "cure" people of homosexuality have turned out to be complete failures. This is in stark contrast to the situation with other psychological problems, such as schizophrenia, which modern psychiatry obviously can help.

    It's interesting to compare homosexuality to left-handedness. There is no gene for left-handedness, but neither is it a choice, or something resulting from human psychological issues; it just happens, always and everywhere, in a certain percentage of the population. Ironically enough, more primitive societies believed that left-handedness was inferior and could be "cured" too.

    The focus of comments in this thread is interesting. I don't think a single person has expressed real concern over the horrible occurrence of homophobic bullying, and the indication is that most people here consider premature sex education to be far more worrying. That seems a reversal of priorities to me.
  17. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    Cyprusg, we needn't conflate a need for tolerance with teaching one unproven theory about the origins of homosexuality.

    An unproven theory that WILL be proven. I'd bet my life on it, and I mean that, that's how sure I am that many, if not most cases of homosexuality are a biological phenomenon.

    As for your personal antecdote, being "effeminate" does not equal being gay.

    How many effeminate men do you know that aren't gay? Seriously, because every effeminate man that I've ever known that said he wasn't gay, later came out of the closet.

    There plenty of effeminate boys and manly girls/tomboys that are perfectly heterosexual.

    I'm sure there are, but you can't honestly tell me that there is not a direct link between homosexuality and effeminate males or manly woman.

    But once again, your semantic games don't change the fact that there isn't a broad scientific consensus on this issue, even if there will be in the future.

    But there really is a consensus, just at this point it's not proven. But if there are homosexual animals, why in the world would it be any different for humans? Or are you going to tell me that 8% of rams are homosexual because of their environment? Were rams molested growing up? Maybe they watched too much TV, got into drugs or something?

    I'm not saying teach students science about homosexuals that doesn't exist, what I'm advocating is teaching theory, even if it's approached like a theory and not fact. But it's paramount that students learn the biology of homosexuality, that's all I'm saying.
  18. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I'd bet my life on it

    As I'm sure you know, this means nothing. Many people have bet and lost their lives on things that are flat out wrong, but that doesn't make them anymore right. And frankly, I wouldn't have expected you to be arguing this hard for something if you didn't sincerely believe, so the point is redundant if not moot.

    But secondarily, even the predicitions of people educated in the field can be wrong. For instance, researches pretty much universally over-estimated the extent to which people would object in the Milgram Obedience Experiment.

    Seriously, because every effeminate man that I've ever known that said he wasn't gay, later came out of the closet.

    Again, antecdotal stories are not proof. They're antecdotes. Period.

    but you can't honestly tell me that there is not a direct link between homosexuality and effeminate males or manly woman.

    That homosexuals often take on the behaviors of the opposite sex is obvious. The question is cause. Are the men homosexual because they're effeminate, or are they effeminate because they are homosexual. Given that you admit there are many heterosexual, effeminate men, it seems like the latter is the more reasonable theory. Thus your whole "I knew person X was gay all along" argument goes out the window.

    But it's paramount that students learn the biology of homosexuality, that's all I'm saying.

    Why? As others have already said in this thread, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with teching tolerance.
  19. Spike2002 Former FF-UK RSA and Arena Manager

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2002
    star 6
    Given that age 7 I had no concept of relationships other than that of my mother and father, and was at the age of "Girls? Ugh!" I think teaching homosexuality, even tolerance of it, is a stupid idea for primary schools.

    The vast majority of any kind of homophobic bullying that takes place in a schoolyard will be at a secondary school. In my experience and area, sex education is taught in the first year of secondary school when children are aged 11-12 and are just becoming aware of their entry in puberty and adolescence.

    If sex education is taught at this age, then why not awareness of homosexuality at the same time? Whether they succeed in promoting tolerance or not depends on how they teach it. I know many children that would be disgusted by the thought of homosexuality, whether they were taught "awareness" and "tolerance" or not.

    And what if teaching this tolerance is against a teacher's personal beliefs. As a former student of a Catholic school, in an area where many primary schools are church-based, how are teachers who believe that homosexuality is wrong supposed to promote awareness and tolerance to their pupils?
  20. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    By age 7 I'd already had my first french kiss with this girl Kristen. :p So the point being we all grow at a different rate. Some sooner than others. o.Ô
  21. darth_paul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 5
    Given that age 7 I had no concept of relationships other than that of my mother and father, and was at the age of "Girls? Ugh!" I think teaching homosexuality, even tolerance of it, is a stupid idea for primary schools.
    But as F_I_D said, everyone progresses at different rates. I mentioned earlier that I was quite the budding romantic at age 5 or 6. I never thought girls were gross, though I did to some extent feel that boys were; I've never gotten along as well with members of my own sex as with the opposite.

    I imagine bullying about homosexuality and bullying about effiminacy in boys (masculinity in girls never seems to have the same effect, as boys are quick to adopt tomboys but girls seldom do the same for girly-men) can probably be conflated, suggesting an approach that attempted to de-stress gender differences in the minds of kids. I can't exactly conceive of how a conversation like that would take place with children that young, but I think it could potentially be a useful andn eye-opening one.

    I'm relying on very vague memories that may be faulty, but i feel as if the first time that anthing I might have (had I been familiar with the concept) identified with homosexual bullying probably occurred in fourth grade, around perhaps the age of 10, just FYI. But I wouldn't swear to it.

    At any rate, I almost wonder if an issue like that isn't better addressed before children really become aware of it. That way they are able to begin observing it actively, and they would be less likely to have established firm preconceptions.

    -Paul
  22. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4

    As I'm sure you know, this means nothing. Many people have bet and lost their lives on things that are flat out wrong, but that doesn't make them anymore right.

    They weren't me...I'm right, end of story.

    But secondarily, even the predicitions of people educated in the field can be wrong. For instance, researches pretty much universally over-estimated the extent to which people would object in the Milgram Obedience Experiment.

    You're comparing homosexuality being a natural occurance with the Milgram Experiment??? First of all, the Milgram experiment was a psychological experiment, and there was no biological evidence that could have suggested what the outcome would have been. Secondly, psychology is not an exact science, there was really no evidence that could have suggested to psychologists what would happen, it was the first experiment of it's kind, so it was really just an educated guess. Thirdly, the evidence that homosexuality is a natural occurance exists, plus most of us can see it plain as day with our own eyes.

    But I'll ask you this, is heterosexuality natural or a product of other factors? If you conclude that heterosexuality is a natural occurance, how can you honestly conclude that homosexuality isn't? How does that at all make sense? If heterosexuality is natural, than no environmental factors could change that, because it's hard-wired.

    That homosexuals often take on the behaviors of the opposite sex is obvious. The question is cause. Are the men homosexual because they're effeminate, or are they effeminate because they are homosexual. Given that you admit there are many heterosexual, effeminate men, it seems like the latter is the more reasonable theory. Thus your whole "I knew person X was gay all along" argument goes out the window.

    Are there many effiminate heterosexual men? Because I don't see it. Why do you think it's so easy for people to recognize when someone is gay? I just don't see many, or any, effiminate heterosexual men, at least not to the extent of a effiminate homosexual male.

    Why? As others have already said in this thread, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with teching tolerance.

    Because when it's perceived as a matter of choice then it's also perceived as something that's fixable. I think that's a dangerous attitude to have.
  23. Branthoris Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2002
    star 3
    In my experience, there are quite a number of "effeminate" heterosexual men, just as there are quite a number of "over-masculine" homosexual men.

    I don't deny a correlation between effeminity and homosexuality, but neither necessarily entails the other.
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