Gays in the military...

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by President-Clinton, Dec 23, 2001.

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  1. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    If a guy in a foxhole is thinking more about whether the guy in the foxhole next to him is gay, than thinking about keeping himself and his fellow soldiers alive, and winning the battle, THAT person shouldn't be in the military in the first place.

    This misguided argument that the military has to maintain unit integrity is just another way of saying that they condone homophobic behavior because there is not reasonable, rational or logical reason why gays shouldn't be allowed to serve.

    If they want to serve let them! They have just as much a right to serve his or her country as any other man or woman.
  2. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    So far this has been an academic debate between people that ave never served one day in uniform. Let me tell you what gays in uniform does in real life.

    We had just gotten back from the National Training Center and our Platoon Leader, out of his own pocket, through all the members of the platoon a BBQ. We were all allowed to bring our "significant others" (since a lot of soldiers aren't married, but are going out with women. It wasn't limited to soldiers and spouces).

    This one guy brought his "friend" and the entire platoon knew right then what he was. He never came right out and said anything because he would have been discharged immediately for homosexuallity.

    You cannot know how bad the platoon morale fell. Suddenly the platoon was ripped apart because a lot of us didn't want to even associate with the man, much less spoon next to him when we were cold, or shower with him after PT, or any of the rest of the things infantrymen do. And some of us didn't care.

    The level of trust between us dropped to nothing and the bottom line is this. In samll units, trust is everything. I have to KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that my battle buddy will be there. And this whole incident, and all the bad blood that it caused just destroyed that trust.

    I'm not saying we couldn't have performed in combat, but I am saying that we were no longer as cohesive as we once were and the problem didn't get better until he left.

  3. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    Slacker, I hope you read my thread. I am a former NCO, veteran of Desert Shield/Storm, Somalia, the many deployments we made in 94 in operation Make Clinton Look like he has a pair for the MidTerm Elections, and Bosnia. So when I post on the subject, I feel it has a certain credibility.

    I personally had no problem with don't ask don't tell, but I realize most soldiers are not as lenient towards others.

    You got to remember, that the same people that are saying that gays are incapable of being good soldiers are the same ones that said blacks were incapable of being good soldiers prior to 1947, when President Truman ordered the ARmy integrated. And there were plenty of soldiers who refused to have anything to do with black soldiers once integrated, there were plenty of platoon sergeants and First Sergeants who said "Screw Equal Opportunity- I will show them Equal Opportunity...I will treat all of the colored's equally!" statments

    It was proven wrong that blacks could be good soldiers. So in the spirit of that, I see little recourse but to give that chance to gays.
  4. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
  5. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    It isn't a question of whether homosexulas are capable of performing the necessary tasks, it is a question of how it effects the morale of the unit.

    You used to be an NCO. YOu should know better than anyone here how important morale and trust are to a fighting unit. Having homosexuals out in the open is absolutely devastating to small unit morale.

    It doesn't matter whether they are capable of fighting. It matter what it does to the unit.
  6. Primetime_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2000
    star 4
    Exactly, Just_a_Slacker!

    The Taliban can fight. Are we gonna put one of them in our units? What if John Walker joined the US Army and promised he'd fight for the good guys this time? How much trust would his fellow soldiers have in him?

    Now I'm not equating the Taliban to homosexuals, but the morale and cohesive factors are definitely involved. In a combat situation you are trusting your life to another person. Trust is everything.
  7. McNerf-Burger Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 5
    What, gay people are untrustworthy? Im not seeing how a soldier being a homosexual can "destroy the trust."
  8. ValedaKor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    Sorry, McNerf-Burger, I have to go with Slacker and TripleB on this one. You had to be there...

    AZC, United States Navy, retired
    Vietnam Veteran -- 1971/72 in country as
    part of liaison team for ComincPac
  9. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Listen, I feel sorry for you soldiers who can't get past your own latent sense of homosexuality.

    This is not meant as an insult. All people can be gender bending, but don't have to be. If you have a problem with gays that doesn't mean you are gay, but I suspect you have some serious HATE issues, because it is ignorant and backwards of you to feel that way about a homosexual.

    This is just one of the reason we yuppie college liberal types lose respect for the military, not that you care.
  10. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    I have to KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that my battle buddy will be there.

    So exactly what does being gay have to do with trust?

    Do you not trust someone just because he is gay?

  11. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    Have you ever had to shower with a gay man before? Have you ever had to look at someone you had to trust your life and your friend's lives to and not be able to know that he would be there to save your skin if you needed him too?

    As soon as I knew he was gay, I couldn't trust him to be in my foxhole with me. I needed to know neyond a shadow of a doubt that he wasn't going to bail on me. What if he got into a relationship with another soldier? Would I KNOW he wouldn't leave his position to try and save his "friend" and leave me to certain death in the process? How could I be certain that he wouldn't try to get closer to me than I wanted? (and yes, that does happen).

    A lot of these same arguements apply with male and female soldiers, but bottom line is this: We couldn't allow a fighting unit to fall apart and having openly homosexual soldiers does that.

  12. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    Slacker.

    I can continue to make my case on what the Army used to be like prior to 1947. Even when President Truman ordered the military integrated, there were a lot of people who had a hard time with it. ALot of people left the military, simply because they did not want blacks serving as equals in uniforms and in units.

    And there were the same comments made about coloreds bringing morale down, how are we going to shower with a colored, etc, etc.

    This is really all a repeat of what happened back then
  13. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    You said you were an NCO? Did you ever have to deal with this first hand?
  14. Corran_Katarn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2001
    star 1
    I cannot believe I'm reading this. This is absolutly disgusting. Homophobia is no worse than racism or sexism. The fact that you cannot trust someone because they are homosexual is absoluty ludicrous and, Slacker, I think you need to get some help on some serious hate issues that you have.

    "Would I KNOW he wouldn't leave his position to try and save his "friend" and leave me to certain death in the process?"

    Are you really that selfish? At least he was saving someone.
  15. FutureEmperor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 1998
    star 3
    Whoa whoa! I may disagree with some of the posters here, but I cannot abide by these charged words we have in political discourse today. "hate issues?" It's quite possible that Slacker and others do not hate gays at all. They may be right or wrong about trust issues, or the effectiveness of open gays in the military, but I don't think you can attribute it to sheer hate.

    In the case of blacks and others, there was no reason except by the most biased of studies to suggest they were anything but equal as soldiers to whites.

    I think, in the end, that as long as all follow the same rules, that the whole gay thing is irrelevant in the long run.
  16. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    There is a real reason that being gay is grounds for courtmartial. It destroys unit cohesion. End of story.

    I'm sorry the world isn't as clear cut as you want it to be, but the bottom line is this: fighting units cannot function if the soldiers in thsoe units don't trust each other and open gays in those units erodes that trust.

    And it isn't a question of slefishness, it's a question of him not leaving his post and his battle buddy.
  17. Corran_Katarn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2001
    star 1
    "I think, in the end, that as long as all follow the same rules, that the whole gay thing is irrelevant in the long run."

    IRRELEVANT!?!?!

    Are you serious!? Of course it's relevent. People are being descriminated against and you think it's irrelevant? You have got to be kidding!
  18. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    There is a real reason that being gay is grounds for courtmartial. It destroys unit cohesion. End of story.

    Is that what you really believe? Wow.

    You keep on talking about not knowing if the guy next to you will be there when you need him. You haven't said why a gay man would not be there for you, besides some lame thing about him running to his lover in the middle of a battle, which you yourself should know is a silly argument.

    So your comrades are supposed to be there for you. Ok. Well aren't you supposed to be there for them too? You were there for him before you knew he was gay, and I can only assume he was there for you as well. How does suddenly knowing this change everything?
  19. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    It isn't discrimination. Homosexuals are being told "What you do is destructive to the morale and cohesion of your unit and that will not be toloerated."

    Nobody is saying they can't be gay. All that is being said is if they are openly gay, they will be seperated from the Army.

    You don't have to like the methods that are employed in defending you. But maybe you should let those people defending you decide their own standards and decided what kinds of things are destructive to the military. You don't have to get your hands dirty. Just let us do what we have to so you can sleep at night under a blanket of freedom.

  20. FutureEmperor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 1998
    star 3
    Dude settle down.

    It should be apparent that I'm saying "being gay" is irrelevant to the performance of a military unit.

    As for discrimination, the military actively discriminates against old people, weak men, women who can't pass strength tests, aspiring pilots with poor vision, people whose courage fails underwater. Being gay need not mean anything in terms of performance, but the military exists to kill people and break things.

    Therefore, i AGREE with you on the gay issue, but I would not agree that all discrimination is bad.
  21. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    You don't have to like the methods that are employed in defending you. But maybe you should let those people defending you decide their own standards and decided what kinds of things are destructive to the military. You don't have to get your hands dirty. Just let us do what we have to so you can sleep at night under a blanket of freedom.

    Believe it or not, that noble sounding stuff doesn't excuse you from wrong practices.
  22. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    >>There is a real reason that being gay is grounds for courtmartial. It destroys unit cohesion. End of story.

    Is that what you really believe? Wow. <<

    It isn't what I believe. It is what I have seen first hand.

    And yes, that kind of trust goes both ways, but some gay soldier would never have to wonder about whether I had the hots for someone else and would go to protect the second soldier. And don't be so nieve to think that murders don't occur over love triangles in the military, both gay and straight. And it is a legitimate concern of soldiers and commander, the kind of relationships in units.

    Bottom line is openly gay soldiers harms their units. I have seen it with my own two eyes. It isn't just some academic debate with me.
  23. Corran_Katarn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2001
    star 1
    I apolagize for getting mad about the irrelevant thing. I missunderstood what you meant.

    If people like Slacker are in charge of my defence I wont be able to sleep a wink because I am so worried what these "defenders of peace and justice" are doing.
  24. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    And yes, that kind of trust goes both ways, but some gay soldier would never have to wonder about whether I had the hots for someone else and would go to protect the second soldier.

    Well, if gay men were really as horny as you make then sound, then would be running around protecting everyone, and wouldn't that be a good thing?

    And frankly I don't see how it matters that you have been there, because so has TripleB and he says the opposite.

    If a guy in a foxhole is thinking more about whether the guy in the foxhole next to him is gay, than thinking about keeping himself and his fellow soldiers alive, and winning the battle, THAT person shouldn't be in the military in the first place.
    -Jades Fire

    EDIT: I'm going to bed, night all.
  25. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Slacker, I think it's quite clear that the problem with gays is with YOU and the rest of the people who have conditioned yourselves to fear gays. YOU have the problem, if the morale is low it's YOUR fault for not stepping up and being a man and standing by your fellow soldier, gay or straight.

    There is no reason to be conceded enough to think a gay man would even find you attractive. And you honostly believe that in a foxhole between life and death a gay guy won't perform? It's YOU that has the problem, I'll take a qualified gay in my foxhole to save me over fear-ridden anti-equality "soldier" any day.
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