Gays in the military...

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by President-Clinton, Dec 23, 2001.

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  1. obi_wan_kanathan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 4
    I'm sure that in the 1800's people thought that having a black in a foxhole with you would lower moral. If anyone thought that now, they would be considered a racist pig. So why should gays be treated any different then blacks?
  2. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    Actually, they were saying stuff against about having blacks in the same unit as recently as 53 years ago,w hen the army was integrated. Alot of people left, simply because they did not want to be in the same unit as black soldiers. Didn't want to eat in the same mess halls, didn't want to live in the same barracks, didn't want to train in PT with them. DIdn't want nothing to do with them.
  3. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    Slacker,

    Your little argument holds little water and can be shot full of holes in several directions. 1) You think being gay might cause a soldier to go save his friend before his foxhole mate. The same can be said for a straight man too. He might want to save his friends before the people who aren't his friends. 2) Under actual live fire combat, not some live fire excercise, the straight man next to you in the foxhole may just freeze up in terror. So where does that leave you and your trust in that straight guy to be there for you?

    Fifty or so years ago, people like you were telling people like me to mind our own business, to let the military set its own standards for who should and shouldn't be a soldier in a unit, when so many in the military were opposing the integration of blacks into the military. The racists were crying foul, just like many of the homophobes are crying foul today.

    Thank god, people like me won out, and blacks were fully integrated into the military. Morale may have suffered at first because of racists who suddenly had to deal with blacks in their units. But the military got over it, and our military forces remain the best in the world.

    Get rid of "don't ask, don't tell". Sexual preference is irrelevant to how well a person perform as a soldier. I say it is now time for the homophobes to make a decision whether to leave the military, or deal with the fact that gay men (and women) can be just as effective as soldiers as straight men (and women).
  4. barnsthefatjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2001
    star 5
    I do not no enough about the 'inner workings' of the military to decide whether it would be a good or bad thing.
  5. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
  6. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    Clearly my own personal experiences in the military mean nothing since everything I write is blinded by my own hate and homophobia. I guess I just have no idea what it is like.

    I wonder how many of you will ever even enlist.

    It is so easy to sit in the relative comfort of your own homes and spounge off of soldiers who put their lives on the line for your freedoms and then critize the way that they protect you.

    You make me want to vomit.

    Well, fine. Critize all you want, but it is still a crime in the military to be openly gay and that's that. All those Generals and Admirals, all of whom have forgotten more about defending this nation than you armchair generals will ever know says that it is wrong and I trust their judgement far more than yours.

    And I have seen firsthand what open gays in the service do, but that isn't important.

    Just go back to being defended, but don't think for a minute that you know what is best.
  7. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "open gays in those units erodes that trust."

    That is the problem if the people who for some reason can't trust gays, not the gay people.
  8. Corran_Katarn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 22, 2001
    star 1
    I make you want to vomit?!? What do you think you make me and almost everyone else on this board want to do?

    And just a question, Slacker, but did you ever get confermation of the fact that the guy in your platoon was gay? I re-read your story and it sounds like you and your platoon only suspected he was a homosexual because he brought another guy to your little picnic.
  9. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    When he was asked about it by the company commander he confessed. We got suspicious when we saw him holding hands with his "friend".

    Now since you know the proper way to defend this country, you will be enlisting, right? Or do you just intend on critizing those people who defend you with their lives?

  10. obi_wan_kanathan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 4
    Slacker, how are your beliefs about gays being in the military different then people's beliefs about blacks in the military years ago? Please tell me how this is any different.
  11. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    Slacker,

    The whole point of Don'tAsk/Dont Tell is to try to prevent alot of what you seem to be railing against from happening.

    I don't know what else to say. YOu have yet to answer on my parallel on how today's blasting of gays in the military is any different then two generations ago, when people were blasting having blacks in their units.

    I did not really care if the medics who might have to administer to me in Desert STorm were gay or not. NEver came to my mind. I never wondered if my Tank COmmander or driver or gunner were gay. I never worried about those kinds of things at all.

    Apparently, you must not be in a combat unit, if you have time to worry about this sort of thing. I was always in highly deployable, high action units and thus never had time to worry about this sort of thing.
  12. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    Being black and being gay aren't the same thing and never were.

    The point of Don't Ask/Don't Tell/Don't Harrass is to keep your mouth shut. Don't announce to the world you are gay or it will screw stuff up. All those generals and admirals who told President Clinton that knew it.

    While I'm glad you never had a problem with it, we did. Half the platoon thought he was an OK guy, and the other half didn't. We were at each other's throats over the whole thing, whether you like to hear it or not. AIf your tank crew was divided the same way we were, you would have done everything in your power to get rid of the problem and you know it.

    At the time I was in an infantry unit (2/7 Mech if you must know. Cottonbalers by God!) and now am a cadet...until May then it's 2LT.

    I've been accused of being a homophobe and hate filled and that isn't fair. The simple fact it openly gay soldiers are detrimental to fighting units. I didn't make the rules and yes, I was very uncomfortable serving with an openly gay soldier. I was uncomfortable sleeping next to him, I was uncomfortable showering with him, I was uncomfortable being placed in a situation where half of my platoon hated the other half. Would I have died for him? Without hesitation, but I wasn't sure if the reverse was true after certain comments he made came out. He was a fine tactially and technically proficient soldier, but that isn't the only thing that matters.

    I am just so tired of hearing all these people who have never served day one in uniform constantly tell me how the military should be run. It isn't a pretty world out there and sometimes decisions need to be made that are ugly, but are the lesser of two evils and the simple fact is that open gays are not helpful to the service.
  13. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    I guess part of this goes back to the classic "being gay is biological or a choice" debate.

    if being gay is biological, then there is no difference between discrimination against a soldier who is homosexual, and that between a soldier who is black, or hispanic, or whatever.

    I really don't know what to say. It seems the half of your platoon that thought this soldier was OK (if he indeed was an OK or better soldier) are true to their oaths' as soldiers, that they are comitted to the ideals of justice and such spelled out in the US Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

    The half that didn't are following in the footsteps of the bigots and rascists who opposed integration of perfectly good soldiers who only crime were in being black.
  14. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    I never thought I'd say this, but TripleB, well said.
  15. Primetime_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2000
    star 4
    Ok, think about this, those of you who disagree with Slacker:

    Suppose a group of armed men, about a hundred, surround your house with the intention of burning it with you inside. Well, lucky for you, you have about 80 soldiers inside your house who are willing to defend it. One of the soldiers comes out and says "I'm gay." Then half of the soldiers decide that they will not fight with that guy. They will only fight if he stays behind.

    What are you going to do? Insist that he gets the "right" to fight, and get yourself and your house and your family burned down. Or get the one guy out of there and let the troops do what they need to do.

    Now, this doesn't mean that every personal decision or belief by each soldier is morally correct. It has nothing to do with that. What matters is that they defend the friggin house and they have to do whatever takes to accomplish that.

    The military is intended to be a cohesive, efficient, affective, strong, killing machine. It is not a lemonade stand or a free car wash. It is about life and death. The very freedom you have to come on the internet and criticize the government comes from the sacrifice of those men and women.

    Again, we're not letting anyone off the hook for real hatred towards people. But the truth remains that openly gay people are detrimental to combat units. Either you can deal with that truth and do something about it, or just ignore it and die. You can philosophize and theorize about how's it's wrong, but that does nothing to help actually defend the country.
  16. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    Well, fine. Critize all you want, but it is still a crime in the military to be openly gay and that's that.

    Ah, the it's-a-law-so-you're-wrong argument...bad omens.

    Primetime_Jedi: Ok, so fighting with a gay man is bad to the fighting ability of homophobes, just like fighting along side a black man was distracting to racists. This proves absolutely nothing.
  17. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    The people in charge, the policymakers, those professionals that have spent their careers in uniform think it's a bad idea to have open gays in uniform.

    A bunch of people that have never worn a uniform once think otherwise.

    Why don't you trust those people with the experience and actual knowledge of how things work?

    It isn't as simple as someone's hurt feelings.
  18. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    The people in charge, the policymakers, those professionals that have spent their careers in uniform back in 1947 thought it was an AWFUL idea to have Blacks serving in the same units as white soldiers, so that is not going to fly.

    I got my combat patch, 2 of them in fact. I wore the stripes, I was in several different platoons during my time in the Army, so I think I do have the ground to stand on when it comes to this subject.

    And unfortunately, as a by result, it is giving Obi-Wan and others a place to stand as well in the process.

    I am sorry, but history shoudl remember as farces, any military officer who opposed integration; this is no different in my view.

    Don'tAsk/DON'T TEll does not even allow gays to come out in the open anyway, so I don't know what you are crying about on it, anyway.

  19. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    Actually I am more than content with the current Don't Ask/Don't Tell/Don't Harass policy. But it's when they do come out that the problems start.
  20. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Yeah, for people like you have "hate" issues.
  21. Just_A_Slacker Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2001
    star 4
    IF you don't like the policy, fine. Contact the President, the Secretary of Defense, and your senators and representatives, after all, you know what's best for this country. But calling me a homophobe isn't going to change things.

    I am done with this thread.
  22. Emerik Lonestar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 1999
    star 4
    First off let me point out that I am in the military. Just to get that point out of the way. This is a two sided coin here. If it is a gay male, then he is put out. If it is a gay female, then the guys get a hoot out of it. If it is a bi-sexual male, gain put out. A bi-sexual female, well lets just say the guys get an even bigger hoot.

    I serve on a carrier and around here it was openly known that there was a "lesbian ring" did anything happen? No. Gay male getting kicked out, Hell yeah it has happened here. Let me ask you this ladies and gents, say that you are in the head(restroom for you landlubbers) and you notice a guy or girl checking out your package or packages? You work with this person on a daily baises. You are out to sea with this person for at least 4 months of the year and at times 9 months a year. How does this make you feel? Honestly, what would you do? You can sit on you high pedestals and say that you wouldn't do anything about it and just sweep it under the rug, but honestly think about it. What would you do?

    It really isn't the same as a racial issue. Honestly. I've worked with guys that are straight out flaming gay, had no problems with them. But at the same time I've worked with those that used it as an excuse.

    All in all, I think it is society that really has the problem with it.

    In a way I am with Slacker. In a way I am not. I think that Jack Nichlos put it best though. Pick up a rifle and stand a post, otherwise shut up, either way I don't give a damn what you think that you are entitled to.

    Yeah so what I praphrased it. You guys get my point.
  23. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Um, what about men and women who serve together?
  24. GasCabbie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 4
    So what you're saying is that sexual tension has a detrimental impact on the cohesiveness of the military. I just want to make sure I'm clear on that, since there are two points I don't think you're taking into account:

    a) Being homosexual does not neccessarily make you a raving sexual lunatic who will go after any and every guy.

    b) Sexual tension, believe it or not, exists between males and females, even if you don't shower with them or go to the bathroom next to them.

    I must admit I'm not in the military, but I'm just not understanding your problem. Maybe you could explain it a little more since I'm still a little hazy.
  25. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    There are so many issues, where believe it or not, I can understand the conservative point of view and can concede that I may be wrong, but this is not one of them.

    Equality is a core belief of this country, and until gays receive the same rights as the rest of us the last vesiges of hypocrasy in the constitution will remain.
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