Gays in the military...

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by President-Clinton, Dec 23, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    This is the year 2002 for crying out loud! It's sickining that these bigotries still exist. Just because you've been in the military, Slacker, doesn't mean you know better than everyone else. It just means you have had a close up perspective. It wasn't this gay man's fault that you all hated him. It was your own fault. Because of YOUR and YOUR UNIT'S bigotries and hatred, this perfectly good soldier was kicked out.
    The only reason morale would drop in a platoon if a soldier admitted he was gay is if members of that platoon are homophobs.
    You say "how am i to know if he is going to stay to help me or run off and help his "friend?"". I racist soldier 50 years ago would have said "How am i to know a black soldier is going to stay and help me or run off to help his black friend?"
    Its a matter of what your own problems are. If you have THAT big a problem with fighting with a homosexual, then maybe you should have left teh army. The problem was not his, it was yours.
  2. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Oh, and well done TripleB.
  3. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    Somehow this argument makes me sick.

    I have not seen you make one argument that makes sense Slacker.

    The only reason you feel uncomfortable is because YOU have a problem.

    It's not his fault.
  4. Garli Pesan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2000
    star 4
    Slacker, I just want to give you my perspective on this. No, I have never been in the military. No, I never will be. But what I have been is on many sports teams. I know it's no where near the same thing but there are a lot of parallels to your arguments.

    First of all there have been lesbains on some of my teams. And I have showered with them, and slept in the same hotel rooms. You know how much I cared? Not at all. It's not like any of them were hitting on me. I don't check out every guy I come across, or think about them sexually. In the same way that I've shared rooms with guys, but didn't hook up with them.

    Second of all when I found out that some of these people were gay, I didn't care any more then I would care about hearing about sexual exploits of my straight friends. It's gossip, but in the same way that everything is.

    In no way did I loose trust or respect for anyone. If you can't trust some one because they are gay, you need to figure out what is really going on, because sexual preference doesn't dictate how people act.
  5. AJA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    All I will say on this subjct is that if they separate males and females in the military, they would have to likewise separate homosexuals from heterosexuals of the same gender. The reasoning behind separating by gender is to create cohesive units, and to do that you have to eliminate any sexual element from the equation. Sexual preference is not the same thing as race.
  6. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Well, women are at least given a chance to serve.

    In addition, women serving has much more to do with females being the physically weaker of the sexes, and there is NO NO NO reason a gay man can't do the job the same as a straight one. The sexual tension argument is ludicrous.
  7. Ghost_of_Caesar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2000
    star 4
    People are rabbiting on about homophobia. Maybe it is a big part of the problem, but maybe not.

    Trust is the big question. If a gay has concealed his sexuality to join the military, and is then caught out/ steps out, then the rest of the unit will wonder what the heck else is he hiding. As far as I'm concerned, dishonourable discharge for being gay is disgracefully wrong (transfer to non-combat speciality would be far better), but to as Slacker mentioned earlier in the piece, unit cohesion is the biggest necessity to combat effectiveness. If that cohesion and morale is destroyed, then the problem needs to be removed.

    The problem exists because the military has rules against gays in the forces in the first place. If those rules weren't there, it is likely a gay would not have to lie to his friends, and they would not feel betrayed if he is outed. If there is still a problem, then it becomes one of discrimination - which is a crime, IMO.
  8. Double_Sting Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 4
    Okay, I have point here for thos who keep comparing the gays and the reluctance to let colored people into the military.

    There is nothing you as an individual do to determine your skin color. You are born with it and you cannot change it. You had no decision in it, and you will never have any decision in it.

    So not liking/being uncomfortable around someone based on that is much worse than doing the same with a gay person.

    Why?

    The gay person made a decision to be gay. It was totally his choice to make. Now what you are talking about is not only a difference in lifestyle, but a major difference in opinion.

    You are not 'discriminating' (it's not the right word, it's too harsh but I can't think of the right one) someon based on character traits that they had no part in deciding. You are 'discriminating' based upon the fact that your opinions differ (you don't think it is okay to be gay, and they think it is okay).

    Now let's take another example. Let's say that someone in your military unit says out loud that they think there is nothing wrong with child molestation.

    How many people are going to still have trust in that person? You want to sleep, work and shower with someone who just says that they think child molestation is cool? (this is not just in the workplace, but in your real job too). You may do it, but you may not be very happy about doing it.

    They may be a perfectly capable fighter, but they are going to create a lot of tension in that unit because of the fact that most people there are going to strongly disagree with that opinion of theirs.

    And it is on such a controversial issue, that it makes a difference to the soldiers. If it is on something trivial like coke or pepsi, of course it will make no difference.

    The saying that you are gay is similar. There are going to be many people who strongly diasgree with your opinion that being gay is okay. (Whether that is right or wrong is the premise of another thread). And again the difference in opinion is going to cause a lot of tension in the unit.
  9. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Double Sting, that whole argument means nothing. It's a well known fact that being homosexual is NOT a choice. It's how that person feels. You don't CHOOSE to feel a certain way. So yes, it is discrimination, just like it's discrimination to hate all black people.
    Furthermore, you cannot compare child molestation to homosexuality. Do you seriously think that two GROWN people of the same sex having CONSENSUAL sex is in the same league of a grown person molesting someone underage against their will??

  10. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    "There is nothing you as an individual do to determine your skin color. You are born with it and you cannot change it. You had no decision in it, and you will never have any decision in it."

    Well that's how many of us feel about gays, and I'm pretty sure a gay person will tell you that it was pretty hard, and that they can't help being attracted to men just like I'm attracted to women.
  11. Double_Sting Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 4
    Hey, I'm just trying to provide arguments for the other side. I'm not writing about how I feel personally, I just think it is an interesting topic to be discussed. Not much of a debate if we all agree on everything - so let me make that clear before we go on.

    Give me a day or two and let me try and get some sort of cohesive argument together ;)
  12. darthfrede Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2001
    star 4
    WOW!!!

    I can't believe some of the things I'm reading in this thread. I'm gay myself and 18 years old... and I'm shocked!

    "It isn't a question of whether homosexulas are capable of performing the necessary tasks, it is a question of how it effects the morale of the unit."
    "The Taliban can fight. Are we gonna put one of them in our units?"


    And all this talk about bad blood. I don't really know quite what to say. Luckily a lot of people have already said it for me.

    "Why the hell should it make any difference whether you're gay or not?"
    "Being homosexual does not neccessarily make you a raving sexual lunatic who will go after any and every guy."

    It's nice to know that most people have joined the 20th/21st century!


    Slacker... You REALLY need some help!


    "If a guy in a foxhole is thinking more about whether the guy in the foxhole next to him is gay, than thinking about keeping himself and his fellow soldiers alive, and winning the battle, THAT person shouldn't be in the military in the first place."

    Jades fire... What a wise person you are!!! :)
  13. KansasNavy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2001
    star 4
    I agree with Slacker partly. I'm aspiring to enter the Air Force, so I've done research. I don't think gay men should be allowed in combat positions. Some of you don't realize that they can be trusted in battle, but most of the time the military is drilling, training, and whatnot for battle. Fact is, I wouldn't feel comftorable if there is a gay guy showering right next to me. I bet a lot of guy's wives and girlfriends wouldn't appreciate it either. What if he does become attached to someone in a beyond-friendship relationship. You can't be trusted because your judgement would be fogged. It's the same reason women shouldn't be in combat duties in the army. It's not like that if their colored. It's the chance that someone might develop a bond, and that screws up cohesion and trust.

  14. Kuna_Tiori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2002
    star 4
    Ok...first off, I'm not in the military, and I'm not gay, but I am aspiring to attend a military service academy (though I'm not trying to be gay :p ) so this does have personal importance to me.

    Secondly, IMO sexual preferences and such shouldn't really have a place in military life, at least when you're actually serving and not on vacation. As I understand it, life is busy and there's not much time for sex and what not. Even if there was, I can't imagine anyone thinking about it on the battlefield.

    Thirdly, gays in general are just like heteros except they would date their own, instead of the opposite, gender. No, they don't rape people (remember this is generally speaking). If I was showering next to them I may feel uncomfortable, but that's my own personal feelings, and just because they're gay doesn't mean they're eyeing you like a piece of meat.

    Just look at it this way (for heteros): Do YOU check out every woman you meet, and if you were placed in a bunk full of women would you want to rape anyone of them?

    Now, I do understand that there are reasons for the military distrust of gays, for the same reasons that women are seperated from men. And this extends well beyond the military to all aspects of life. It's the reason why we have Men's and Women's restrooms.

    I don't think putting gays with the opposite gender would be a very good idea, but keeping gays and heteros seperate is...not such a good idea either. That would basically alienate gays. ("Hey, Bert, look over there, it's the gay guys.")

    That would leave the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy as the best choice, but that's also discrimination. So in conclusion, I advocate that gays be afforded with the full rights of heteros in the military. Sure, one may feel uncomfortable, but will these feelings extend to the battlefield? Will they be anywhere OTHER than the shower and the bunks? Maybe they will be at first, but just as how the military got over showering and bunking with African-Americans, they will get over showering and bunking with homos.

    Besides, seeing how this IS the military, which not only prohibits sexual abuse but also seems to place a great deal of emphasis on being a moral character, how likely will a man be raped by a gay soldier?

    So, in a nutshell, gays should be treated equally because 1) They're human, like the rest of us, 2) Rape will probably not occur in the military, 3) The reason why gay presence destroys morale, if it does, is more due to the widespread homophobia than anything that has actually something to do with the gay him/herself. This is a problem that needs to be corrected.
  15. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Kuna Tiori, your argument makes no sense. Because you "think" a gay might be attracted to you, you can't handle yourself and you'll lose your fighting edge? I would think someone dedicated to joining our armed forces has the ability to cope with problems bigger than that! Because if THAT is enough to shut you down, perhaps you shouldn't serve.

    People felt the exact same way when they integrated blacks and whites. Oh, you can't trust the "negros," can you? They won't watch our white backs like we whites will, right?

    Come on.
  16. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    Well, the UK government has been forced by the European Court of Human Rights to admit gays into the military. I suspect that, in the US, the decision will finally be taken by the Supreme Court.
  17. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Yeup, and they've decriminilized the pot quite a bit too!
  18. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    Obi-Wan McCartney:

    I'll defer to someone who knows that issue quite well, having a rather unique perspective:

    Colin Powell himself drew a line here. The issue is NOT their sexual preference, it is their CONDUCT. He drew a clear line on that front. In the case that J_A_S pointed out, there were clear negative effects, which bear out General Schwarzkopf's testimony on this issue.

    These are two men who have commanded, and have done so quite successfully. I'll take their word on this on that matter.
  19. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Yeah, but don't you think those 'conduct evaluations' were slightly biased? I mean, there are a lot of social issues involving acceptance that need to be worked out in the military. And I refuse to accept the idea that "it's not worth it to try." It's always worth it to try and better humanity.
  20. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    In most cases, I would agree. But the job of the military is not to be a social laboratory. It's job is to kill people and break things. We're dealing with national security here. You sign away a portion of the Bill of Rights when you join. Just ask the Air Force colonel who published the letter claiming Bush knew about 9/11 and let it happen - as well as a couple of generals during the Clinton era.

    The difference is the behavior and conduct. Quite clearly, in the 1947 situation, there was no potential for bad behavior. A number of black Americans had proven that they could do the job quite well, and keeping the segregation was probably more disruptive to discipline.

    In the 1993 situation, we are dealing with behavior and conduct, which caused a serious problem with order and discipline in a vast majority of the cases at the very least.

    General Schwarzkopf's statement is at the following URL: http://dont.stanford.edu/hearings/Hearings5-11-93.pdf

    His full statement starts on page 4.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.