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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

[GEN] Getting back to basics?

Discussion in 'Communications' started by BobTheGoon, Jul 2, 2004.

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  1. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 1999
    I mean this with the most possible respect, and without really taking a position one way or another, but if all of the Star Wars topics bore you why are you still here? Why does the JCC play host to such a variety of topics?

    In addition to some of the good answers given above, I think there's value in having a community for Star Wars fans. What if Star Wars fans want to ask other Star Wars fans what they thought about LotR or the Matrix or Fahrenheit 9/11? You can have things here you'd never cull from a movie review written for the general public.
     
  2. Grimby

    Grimby Technical Consultant & Former Head Admin star 7 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2000
    The emphasis of these boards has been social, non-SW discussion for some time IMO. Even to the point where once-solid and clearly directed Film and EU boards are now run like Community forums. When you change established principles (eg: "No social threads in film forums") that were created to safeguard SW content, you gradually change the focus the forums (ie: "Community-style interaction is more important than quality SW discission") and pretty soon you have a user base which is not necessarily interested in SW but comes mainly for a social/chat experience.

    That's what you have now.


    Indeed.

    I just wonder if that was a preconceived idea that the owners wanted to take and therefore encouraged. I know if I were the owner of this board and were looking for ways to make money off it, I'd open up more ad space (done), I'd sell user data to marketing lists (done?) and I'd play up the Community aspects of the user base so that after Ep3 does it's business next year, I could turn the booming Community side of the site into a pay-for-access service and let the SW content atrophy.

    This guy is on to something I say...
     
  3. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    There may be nothing more to talk about with the films, but the EU is forever.

    :cool:

    I support this idea! :)
     
  4. jedi_master_ousley

    jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2002
    It is a matter of focus...

    Try to place people's focus back on intelligent Star Wars discussion (whether it be films or EU). That's what the site is for. Nothing wrong with the off-topic discussion, and I quite enjoy it. But that shouldn't be the main focus of the site.

    Note: I put the emphasis on "intelligent" because lately I have noticed a strong decrease in the quality of Star Wars related discussions. Things have gone from deep, insightful discussions to "let's see how many funny, sarcastic replies we can get in."

     
  5. malkieD2

    malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2002
    I cannot be the only user that has noticed that 99% of the problems and drama discussed here in Comms comes from literally 1% of the boards on TF.N.

    I'm not so sure. Some of the most heated discussion and drama has came directly from StarWars related issues.

    1) EU canon wars

    2) Slash Fanfiction

    3) Sidious = Palpatine

    Like Farraday suggested, closing the JCC, Senate etc etc would just lead to a dramatic increase in JCC or Senate type threads in inappropriate forums.

    At the end of the day we are all StarWars fans, thats the reason we registed at a StarWars fan site. That means we can discuss the movies with other people who have watched them 20 times and know the dialogue off-by-heart.

    It also means we can discuss a whole host of other topics with like-minded people. There's a good chance that most StarWars fans have seen 'BladeRunner', read LotR, and played MarioKart. It improves the general community by enabling us to chat about other things while waiting for the next spoiler, next cartoon, latest novel, or newest 'Unleashed' figure.

    Face it, these forums have developed from a place to discuss StarWars movies into a place where StarWars fans discuss everything. I lurked in 2SA/3SA for a long time before registering, and only signed up to have a conversation with some people in a FanForce board. I still lurk in 3SA, but rarely (if ever) post there.

    We can't step backwards, we can't downsize, and we shouldn't refocus.

     
  6. DarthAttorney

    DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2000
    I've always been a big fan of rolling the Senate and the Amphitheatre back into JCC. JCC lost so much when those forums opened, it lost more than the two new ones were worth IMO. They receive a fair amount of traffic now but it's generally from the same core users, with the ocassional new person floating in and out. Downsizing can also be called consolidating.

    JCC used to be the all-purpose non-SW forum. If it wasn't about SW, it went in JCC. That's what it was the only social forum on the JCC. Since the Senate and the Amphitheatre split out, there's been an increase in the amount of social posting across the boards, wether it's the encouragment of games and social threads in every film and EU board, the redirection of existing forums like the old Miscellaneous and New Users or the creation of new dedicated social forums (can't think of any off-hand but I'm sure there's some)....it's bloody everywhere. One honestly cannot enter a board here without being confronted by the obligatory social thread(s) and forum games.

    With the pleasant exception of Saga.
    Cause that's the way I constructed it ;)

    Edit: Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad thing that the boards are riddled with social chat. If that's what you want these boards to be, then that's all fine and dandy. Just don't deny that's what you've got because to call the JC a serious place to discuss Star Wars anymore is quite far from the truth, I reckon. I think you'd be hard pressed to be a newb here and be able to start a thread about new, unseen and undiscussed SW topic. And even harder pressed to find the kind of users and the appropriate place to post it before getting frustrated as hell with the people chatting up your thread, y'know?
     
  7. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    I like these boards because they have so much to offer. We cannot go backwards. You cannot create it and then eliminate it. Cars can cause pollution, yet we don't eliminate cars. You can't take away something once you have it.

    Those boards are a great addition to the site. Mostly because after a long time I get a little bored of discussing SW, there is only so much to discuss. It is good to have other boards too.

    -Seldon
     
  8. Everton

    Everton Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2003
    I like these boards because they have so much to offer.

    That sums it up for me. I like being able to discuss a good deal of everything 'under one roof'. It's why I kept coming back to these boards, and I've never kept coming back to anywhere online for as long as I have this place. I don't like the idea of having to visit a multitude of boards to discuss a multitude of subjects.
     
  9. jedi_master_ousley

    jedi_master_ousley Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2002
    The boards can offer all they want. The main focus of the posters should be on Star Wars, with the secondary focus being on non Star Wars chat.

    Look at the direction that Genghis took EUC right after DA stepped down about a year ago. Before then, the forum was allowed 3 [active] social threads, and the rest of the discussions had to have some sort of focus on the EU...and the social threads were encouraged to discuss the EU from time to time. Now that is quite different... Genghis has allowed social chat to take over the forum, which is not needed in one of the Star Wars boards.

    Put the main focus of the site back on Star Wars, as this is a Star Wars site. The other stuff is fine, but some people make it the only thing they concern themselves with.

    Edit: On the other hand, there are a lot of posts from JCC that I don't think I'd want to see in the film/EU forums. Take all the "bathroom humor" related threads in JCC right now (WHICH SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN SUCH MASS) ... I certainly wouldn't want to see an abundance of those types of posts in the film/EU boards.
     
  10. AmazingB

    AmazingB Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2001
    However, aren't my friends and I here for Star Wars?

    Obviously everyone was here initially for Star Wars in one way or another, be it spoilers discussion, fan fic, or anything else. And then when you start seeing the same people every day, you eventually want to start talking to those people about things other than just Star Wars. When you're at school you don't talk to your classmates exclusively about school. Same with coworkers at a job. Maybe you do initially, since you know it's something you have in common, but soon things start to branch out. It's not necessary, it just makes things more fun and less monotonous.

    Why must a space be provided for the discussion of anything else? Or does the allowance of off-topic discussion bolster friendship on the boards? Should this be desireable over all of the problems that arise over the management of the boards? Is a popular website dedicated to news on one subject obligated to provide a literal forum for the discussion of all topics?

    I don't think ownership is at all obligated to keep any of the non-Star Wars forums, nor are they necessary for TFN to keep running. But I've never been to a message board (at least that I can think of off-hand) that, while dedicated to a specific topic, didn't have some sort of social forum, if only to keep the the primary reason for the board's existence separate from the socialization. I think farraday pointed out that if the JCC, Senate, and Amphitheatre were removed there would be a marked increase in the social aspects of the movie forums. Obviously the mods of those forums could try to curtail it, but there's got to be a breaking point where it's just not worth it, which, I imagine, is one of the main reasons why the JCC was created in the first place.

    When does it become more trouble than it's worth, or is it worth it inalmost all cases to preserve the community?

    I think it's long been true that the JCC is the source of most problems within the JC, as can easily be seen by poking through Comms. And that's because it's much easier to establish rules in a more restricted setting (discussion of Star Wars) rather than a broader setting (discussion of everything that isn't Star Wars). But it probably only becomes more trouble than it's worth when it starts driving people away from TFN. And seeing the number of people who stick around here strictly for non-Star Wars discussion (for better or worse, depending which side of the fence you're on), I don't think that's happening.

    Amazing.
     
  11. Tabula Rasa

    Tabula Rasa Administrator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1998
    "basics" got changed for a reason.
     
  12. Lord_Fett

    Lord_Fett Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 14, 2002
    If you don't like the non-SW boards in the JC, don't go there. What's the problem? People post where they like and it would be crazy to put the JC ONLY devoted to SW. Loads of JCers would leave.
     
  13. Katya Jade

    Katya Jade Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 19, 2002
    Exactly, therein lies the real kicker to an idea like this. If you have this place as just a forum for the movies, people will get bored, they won't stick around once they're done discussing the movies. I've barely set foot in any of the movie forums in a number of months, simply because the times I have, I've seen many of the same discussions and debates I've participated in numerous times before. I don't want to go through them again, so there's no reason to stay there. Yes, JCC and th elike may be the source of the majority of the problems, but they're also the forums that keep people coming back.

    I agree with DDH here. Yes, the JCC does have a good number of drama issues here and there, but many of the users come here just for that board. When I signed up, I was all over the CT and movie forums but after I'd discussed all I wanted to, I found the JCC and I've posted there since. It's probably the same for many others here.

    I don't know of one SW board that doesn't have some kind of social forum for their members. It's just a natural part of the community, I believe.
     
  14. BobTheGoon

    BobTheGoon Moderator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2000
    Like I said, I have nothing against social boards, I'm just kind of interested in the hows and whys of their existence.
     
  15. Esperanza_Nueva

    Esperanza_Nueva Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 23, 2003
    Like others have said, when I first came here I only posted in the movie forums, but now feel as if there is little left to discuss.

    I look at the JC now as a place where I can meet people with whom I have common interests (mainly Star Wars). My love for Star Wars hasn't died. I just don't feel the need to discuss it everyday of my life, but I love having a place to go to have fun with people who share the same passions that I have. The JC has developed a wonderful, wonderful community and to eliminate it would be a crime. The survival of the JC depends on this community because the relationships and friendships formed on this board will last long after Episode III. :)
     
  16. Lord_Fett

    Lord_Fett Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 14, 2002
    ^^^^^you said it Esperanza. I also began in the movie forums and I still drop by, but the Senate, YJCC, Amphitheatre, etc, thought me a lot of things and I met a lot of interesting people there, something that just wouldn't happen if I only went to SW boards.
     
  17. mac-nut

    mac-nut Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 14, 2001
    It's just like taking only one course (like math) in school and being in that classroom all day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, for the last 4 years. After awhile, you get "math'd" out; people need a variety of classes, in a safe, wholesome atmosphere. The JC has provided that, with the JCC being the cafeteria, where there is a great variety to choose from, and we can sit anywheres, and have a great time.

    We are fine. :) :) :)
     
  18. Darth_Viper81

    Darth_Viper81 Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Interesting enought that the author of this thread claims that the problems come from non-star wars based discussion, when all I ever see in here are threads about trolls in the 3SA.
     
  19. BobTheGoon

    BobTheGoon Moderator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2000
    There usually isn't enough time between troll attacks and response of the mods for someone to make a thread. I think if you look back through the threads you'll see a good majority of the threads created here deal with non-Star Wars related issues.
     
  20. royalguard96

    royalguard96 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2001
    I agree with Bob.

    The only reason anyone sees troll attack threads here is 1. no 3SA mods happen to be online at that moment and 2. 3SA is the biggest target for such attacks from presumably, those outside the board population.

    I also agree that a majority of the "drama!" that occurs here is because of what goes on in the JCC. And since this is a site/board that has its roots in Star Wars, it's noticeable when non-Star Wars issues become the biggest source of policy debate.

    Although deleting the non-Star Wars boards has always been a dream of mine, it will never, ever happen. Too many people would quit coming here, which means fewer site hits, which means less $$$ down the line for the owners.

    Now, would deleting the JCC/Senate stop the problems that cause drama here? Doubtful, because when people want to bitch about something, they will find something, wherever it is.

    Then this leads into the age-old question of whether to be more strict or less strict in moderating those boards. Would either method make problems start to go away? And how could that be proven and over what length of time would be adequate to make such a decision? Personally, I don't see how it's so difficult to not get banned.

    My opinion, is that it seems like people who make most of their posts in the JCC can be banned many times and are able to return. Those based primarily in the movie forums get banned a bunch of times and never tend to come back. Some of the militant basher/gushers and YodaoftheSith come to mind. I don't know if "facts" can back this up, it's just been my general observation after being here for almost 3 years. Whether that difference plays into the differences Bob is talking about, isn't for me to say.
     
  21. Trell

    Trell Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 11, 2002
    The JCC stuff is really what keeps me back. Just look at my post history, which I think is indicitive of many users, first it was all Lit, then it got into EU Community a bit, and now it's all JCC. I visit Lit maybe one time a week now, and I post once a month in there. But I post in the JCC every day.

    -P!-
     
  22. BobTheGoon

    BobTheGoon Moderator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2000
    RoyalGuard brings up an interesting point. In my experience it is the movie forum trtolls that get banned and never return, whereas those that are banned for community infractions tend to be much more eager to return. Of course, they are the biggest repeat offenders as well :) I'm pretty sure every one of my bans has been for a community offense, which is why I tend to stay out of the JCC and Senate :D
     
  23. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    RoyalGuard brings up an interesting point. In my experience it is the movie forum trtolls that get banned and never return

    My experience has been precisely the opposite. The 3SA moderators have had to deal with a number of serial trolls who keep coming back, whereas you hardly ever see a serial troll in the community section. Certainly there are people who repeatedly get banned and manage to come back, but that's not the same thing as ignoring a ban and posting with one username after another as each one is banned.
     
  24. Vertical

    Vertical Former Head Admin star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Apr 6, 1999
    Holy smoke. Eliminate the Community aspect of these forums and force concentration and focus on SW topics only?

    Why? This obsession with eliminating drama is coming dangerously close to going overboard. Drama, while messy and unpleasant to deal with, is a fact of life. It's a part of any community. You don't just eliminate the community to get rid of drama. If the cost of eliminating drama is to eliminate all social interaction then I think that cost is *way* too high.

    I mean, I hate drama just as much as anybody here (possibly moreso than most), but I don't hate drama more than I love the sense of community this board offered me while I was a regular.

    You ask why there are non SW boards? I think that one's been covered fairly well, but I'll reiterate - people can only talk about SW for so long. Over the course of many SW discussions, you form friendships, learn to respect certain users' opinions, and inevitably something in the real world will happen that will spark your curiosity and you'll want to know what your friends think of it. I met a ton of friends in college, but we discussed more than just class and books and theories. Socialization is not a bad thing, even if it causes drama. Some might even say that socialization is a good thing because it causes drama.

    Go back and read Dashy's and Amazing's posts. That's all that needs to be said.

    Drama is not some evil that must be stamped from the face of the internet at all costs. Sure, we should do what we can to try and control it, but if eliminating it comes at the cost of burning the bridges of friendship and community, I can't imagine why anyone would support that idea.

    TheForce.Net's board are about more than just SW. That's why we all initially came here, but clearly it's also just as much about a SW community. Look at FanForce! That's all about social interaction. If it was just about talking about SW, there'd be no need for meetings and social gatherings. Look at Celebration! The SW universe attracted a lot of people ... and those people formed a community.

    Why on earth would you want to remove the community from the experience?

    Because there's drama? So what? As others have said, if you don't want to see the drama, it's quite easy for you to just not click on Communications.

    Let's look at those choices:

    Users can have a zero-drama experience at the JC by:

    1) having JCC and all non-sw related boards destroyed, along with any sense of community, and entirely killing any reason to re-visit this site once you've burned out on SW discussion (which happens to *everyone*)

    OR

    2) avoiding Comms

    You're in control of your drama intake. If you don't like it, don't come to Comms.

    Let's make an analogy. Let's say Comms is the 'smoking section' of a city. It's entirely quarantined, and you can only get in if you mean to. Now, let's assume you're allergic to smoke. Wouldn't it make more sense for you to avoid the smoking section instead of banishing all smokers to another city, if they only smoke in that one section, and the smoke never drifts to any other sections, and the only place you'll ever encounter smoke is if you go to that section?

    Wow. Drama is not satan. Drama is not going to eat your children. Drama is not like being on fire, and being put out with an ice-pick. Drama is just a side-effect of having a community of diverse minds. And having a community of diverse minds is a good thing.

    There's no need to kill the community aspect of the SW universe just because some folks don't like the messy side-effects, especially if they can avoid that drama by simply not coming to the board that focuses on it.

    In closing, in case you've skipped the rest of my post, just remember this:

    Drama is not the devourer of worlds. It is not something that MUST BE ELIMINATED AT ALL COSTS. Especially not at the cost of eliminating something so valuable as a thriving community of friends.

    Vertical
     
  25. BobTheGoon

    BobTheGoon Moderator Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2000
    Nice post Vert, but don't think you have do convince me, I'm just playing devil's advocate to get a conversation started about something a little different than the usual Comms stuff. After all, like everyone else, I get burnt out on Star Wars talk and come to Comms. Your post basically did what I wanted to happen, which is providing a little bit of perspective for the bigger picture of Star Wars fandom.
     
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